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  #1  
Old 04-09-2016, 7:15 PM
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Default Off roster shipment within california

I have a question for our FFL's. I contacted someone that has a double action revolver for sale in another part of California....it is not on the Roster. He indicated he would ship to my FFL if my FFL would receive a double action that had been modified to be a single action during the transaction and then changed back to a double action after the deal was completed.

I spoke with an FFL I've worked with before and he was not comfortable with that kind of transaction..he said he was unsure but it sounded too much like the out of state transactions folks used to do with semi's being "made into" single shot for the transfer and then changed back to a semi.

When I told the seller my FFL's comments he told me I was wrong and he has had it done on several occasions...I just wonder if anyone here would like to weigh in and give me an opinion? Thanks..

By the way...the deal probably would not have gone down any way because there would be shipping within California...then the FFL's fee for receiving a handgun..then conversion back to a double action and the DROS...Nice gun but probably would have ended up too costly...but it did spark the question about the ability to do the conversion and have it legal.

many thanks
opos
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Old 04-09-2016, 7:17 PM
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NO shipping for off roster .
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Old 04-09-2016, 7:21 PM
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As far as I know the single action conversion is legal, like the single shot used to be. It would have to meet size requirements.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by faris1984 View Post
NO shipping for off roster .
Huh? Completely legal to ship off-roster to and within CA.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
As far as I know the single action conversion is legal, like the single shot used to be. It would have to meet size requirements.
Yep, single action exemption is still alive and well.
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:06 AM
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Remember that the size requirements are 3" barrel and 7.5" overall. Unfortunately those snub model 64s that were available recently were no go.
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Old 04-10-2016, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PlacerTactical View Post
Huh? Completely legal to ship off-roster to and within CA.
yes, off-roster cna be shipped within CA. but if it is shipped, it can't be PPT DROSed and needs to be done as a dealer DROS, and as such, the roster applies.
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Old 04-10-2016, 2:55 PM
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Or the buyer is exempt from the roster, such as LEOs or it is an intrafamilial transfer.
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Old 04-10-2016, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
yes, off-roster cna be shipped within CA. but if it is shipped, it can't be PPT DROSed and needs to be done as a dealer DROS, and as such, the roster applies.
My "huh" reference was meant to say he was off base about it being illegal. It is perfectly legal with the added info you provided.
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Old 04-10-2016, 3:18 PM
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Ok...now you got me confused...I'm the O/P....so if I read you correctly the off roster gun can only ship to another FFL (even if made into a single action) as an FFL transfer and cannot be done as a PPT to me though the receiving FFL..correct? If that is the case then what my FFL told me was correct and the deal would be questionable and he'd not take it as a shipped in from the seller in California and Dros it to me when it arrived....is that it?...and has nothing to do with inter family or LEO transfer.
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  #11  
Old 04-10-2016, 3:21 PM
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An off-roster firearm can ship to a FFL, the question is whether it can be transferred to the person.

If the firearm is exempt, such as single action of a given size, then it can be transferred.
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Old 04-10-2016, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opos View Post
Ok...now you got me confused...I'm the O/P....so if I read you correctly the off roster gun can only ship to another FFL (even if made into a single action) as an FFL transfer and cannot be done as a PPT to me though the receiving FFL..correct? If that is the case then what my FFL told me was correct and the deal would be questionable and he'd not take it as a shipped in from the seller in California and Dros it to me when it arrived....is that it?...and has nothing to do with inter family or LEO transfer.
There is nothing "questionable" about an off roster SAE gun being transferred in CA. If it is shipped, it won't be a PPT so, the FFL can charge any amount for the transfer but, it's still exempt from the roster. It sure sounds like your FFL doesn't have a grasp on the law. I suggest finding a more knowledgeable FFL to do business with and let the FFL in question read and think about CA PC 32100 for a while.
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Old 04-10-2016, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
An off-roster firearm can ship to a FFL, the question is whether it can be transferred to the person.

If the firearm is exempt, such as single action of a given size, then it can be transferred.
^^^this.
The revolver does not have to be shipped to and FFL in single action as long as the dealer is knowledgeable, willing and can perform the single action conversion themselves. There are a handful of us that do it all the time. There are dealer that don't want to deal with it and that is their right to not have to, just find one that does.
Factory single action revolvers aren't on the roster anyway, they are by definition, exempt.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2016, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlacerTactical View Post
^^^this.
The revolver does not have to be shipped to and FFL in single action as long as the dealer is knowledgeable, willing and can perform the single action conversion themselves. There are a handful of us that do it all the time. There are dealer that don't want to deal with it and that is their right to not have to, just find one that does.
Factory single action revolvers aren't on the roster anyway, they are by definition, exempt.
So I guess I'm missing why the receiving FFL would do a single action conversion? The point is to not have it be a single action for it's 'life"..just to get it shipped and transfered...I thought the double action gun off the roster would have to be altered to single action...shipped and the receiving FFL would then change it back to a double action...unless I mis read what you posted are you saying the gun can be shipped in it's original double action configuration, then when it is received the receiving FFL can do the conversion, dros it and then convert it back? Why even bother to convert it if it's just getting converted right back in the same transaction by the same FFL?
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
There is nothing "questionable" about an off roster SAE gun being transferred in CA. If it is shipped, it won't be a PPT so, the FFL can charge any amount for the transfer but, it's still exempt from the roster. It sure sounds like your FFL doesn't have a grasp on the law. I suggest finding a more knowledgeable FFL to do business with and let the FFL in question read and think about CA PC 32100 for a while.
I understand about a SA being exempt..I've bought and had shipped in several single actions shipping within California...the issue with my FFL is that he is not comfortable about having the double action changed to a single action with the express purpose of avoiding a law...then after doing he paperwork changing the gun back to a double action...the whole situation is one designed to skirt the laws as written....he's not willing to do that..he's been the FFL that has brought in the single actions for me in the past but there was no alteration as part of the deal.

Correct me but the DROS and paperwork shows a model number and item name....example would be "RG31 (off register double action revolver) .say it is altered by the shipping FFL and then comes in as a modified single action..the paperwork will show it's a RG-31 (or does it show that it's a "converted" or "single action" RG-31) and then it get's altered back to it's original form? Does Sacramento not care that it was altered in order to side step the law?
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:28 PM
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It's not sidestepping or skirting the law. It is merely complying with the law. In fact, it the lawmakers didn't want to keep allowing SA conversions to be done, they would have changed the law when they changed the law regarding single shot exemptions. They clearly did not do that so, one can only assume that they actually condone SA conversions.
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
It's not sidestepping or skirting the law. It is merely complying with the law. In fact, it the lawmakers didn't want to keep allowing SA conversions to be done, they would have changed the law when they changed the law regarding single shot exemptions. They clearly did not do that so, one can only assume that they actually condone SA conversions.

Ok, got that part..I'm still confused about the "receiving" FFL doing the conversion to a single action and then converting it back to a double action...just seems odd or perhaps I mis read the other person's post.
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:57 PM
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To meet the Single Action Exemption, it must be in single action configuration during the DROS period. I believe after you have taken possession, it is converted back to DA.... or not

Some FFL's will let you do the conversion. You said you have done this before, here is link for DIY, if it's a Smith and Wesson and meets the dimensional criteria

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=453716
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Old 04-10-2016, 4:58 PM
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The law is stupid and there are ways around the law. Consider the single shot exemption in the past. The law allowed for the transfer to occur if the firearm was a single shot. The past or future did not matter. The law was changed to prevent it by looking at the past. It is the same with the single action today and if it meets the condition prior to the start of the paperwork as well as when the paperwork is finished, then it is acceptable. It does not matter who does the modification, just that during the time of the waiting period that it is exempt from having to be on the roster.

If you buy a firearm which is on the roster and take it home, then engrave it, change the grips, change the color or changing any of the original parts, except for the sights, it is no longer considered to be on the roster.

Ask why a firearm once tested on placed on the roster does not remain forever on the roster, but instead is only remains on the roster if money is paid each year. The money does not change the testing or the firearm.

The real thing is that the roster is a violation of our Rights and should be thrown out, actually it never should have been made a law since it is a fraud. Just the fact that LE are exempt should tell you that it was never about safety. The anti-gun people want to ban guns, but they can not directly ban guns, so they find a means to limiting guns and others find ways to follow the law since it is poorly written due to a flawed concept.
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Old 04-10-2016, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by opos View Post
Ok, got that part..I'm still confused about the "receiving" FFL doing the conversion to a single action and then converting it back to a double action...just seems odd or perhaps I mis read the other person's post.

You are reading skills are excellent. It's your brain trying to make sense out of a CA gun law that is having the difficulty
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Old 04-10-2016, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Malthusian View Post
To meet the Single Action Exemption, it must be in single action configuration during the DROS period. I believe after you have taken possession, it is converted back to DA.... or not

Some FFL's will let you do the conversion. You said you have done this before, here is link for DIY, if it's a Smith and Wesson and meets the dimensional criteria

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=453716
Ok...got the story from the link...now here is the "rub"...it specifically mentions that the exemption is for guns coming into California from out of state ..several places in the discussion it uses that specific language..."from out of state".

The gun we are talking about in this whole learning process (for me any way) is from a seller that is located in the state...he made reference to getting a couple of guns shipped into the state after a conversion but the transaction that he is talking about for me is all within the state...Is that a problem? That seems to be where the FFL I spoke with has concerns...all within California..

Last edited by opos; 04-10-2016 at 6:34 PM..
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Old 04-11-2016, 2:41 AM
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Shipping from out of state or within the state is the same thing legally.
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Old 04-11-2016, 7:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opos View Post
Ok...got the story from the link...now here is the "rub"...it specifically mentions that the exemption is for guns coming into California from out of state ..several places in the discussion it uses that specific language..."from out of state".

The gun we are talking about in this whole learning process (for me any way) is from a seller that is located in the state...he made reference to getting a couple of guns shipped into the state after a conversion but the transaction that he is talking about for me is all within the state...Is that a problem? That seems to be where the FFL I spoke with has concerns...all within California..
The bottom line, the transaction is a dealer transfer. Dealer transfers are subject to the Roster. SAE is a legal way to obtain an off roster revolver. If you read Bwiese post #2, it has been clarified that the conversion can be done after the FFL receives the handgun. My FFL has told me he would allow me to do the conversion myself in front of him. It is not hard. It is easiest if you just buy a hammer and replace the old hammer - with the new hammer minus the double action sear. Take it home and change it back yourself. Then you have a hammer for another SAE down the road

CA passes a law, initially nobody is able to decipher the law because it is vague. Cases brought before the court, start to clarify the law. Clarifications start to trickle through to the FFL's

Bwiese, Ke6guj, kemasa

These members have solid information, they are not lawyers, Mr Wise is an active member in the CGF and CRPA. Ke6quj is a contributor, I believe Kemasa is an FFL

The State is not that interested in over regulating Revolvers, they leave no brass at the crime scene.

Now you need to locate an FFL that is aware of the law and is able to accommodate an SAE exemption. Most brick and mortar stores are not going to be very helpful.


IANAL

The opinions are my own based upon the plethora of information provided within these forums and gunwiki, google is your friend
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:25 AM
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Many thanks! I'm certain the FFL I spoke with would have no interest in trying to be aware of all that information..he is small and does transfers and really no gunsmithing at all...it's all pretty confusing but then again it's California...got to have some "trade off's" for having fruit trees in the back yard and tuna in the ocean..

Again, thanks to everyone that posted...much appreciated

opos
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