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  #1  
Old 02-02-2017, 7:48 PM
timeexposure timeexposure is offline
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Default Buying Roster Listed Gun With Mods?

Not sure how to ask this, so I'll make up an example.
Let's say a friend wants to buy a Wilson Combat model that is listed on the CA roster (for example, the Classic full size model). It's from an out-of-state dealer. The gun has no box/papers. The model is clearly marked on the slide.
The issue is that the pistol is not exactly the same as the CA roster version because it comes with upgraded parts (Wilson calls them "Bullet Proof") and a gold bead front sight.
How would an FFL know whether or not it is qualified for transfer in CA? Would an FFL accept it as being legal based on the model?
The Wilson doesn't have an LCI or anything to suggest it is designed for CA. I think it was just grandfathered as originally tested. Wilson makes it unchanged for Californians, and makes it however anyone else wants it in the free states.
If the FFL would do the transfer (not recognizing the particular pistol had upgrades), would they reject it if it had a more "obvious" (perhaps only to a Wilson fanatic) upgrades like serrated slide top, a slide stop that was recessed, missing front slide serrations, or had a crowned barrel?
Of course, I have advised my friend not to risk it, and purchase only a CA model that is clearly manufactured for sale in CA by checking the paperwork.
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  #2  
Old 02-02-2017, 9:33 PM
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What you are asking is what you can get away with that could possible cost the FFL their license or fines.

Sights do not affect a guns roster ability.
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  #3  
Old 02-02-2017, 10:55 PM
timeexposure timeexposure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
What you are asking is what you can get away with that could possible cost the FFL their license or fines.

Not what I asked, but thanks for implying that I am out to get away with breaking the law and endangering the livelihood of an FFL.
I want to know how an FFL determines a particular gun whose model is on the roster is not eligible for transfer, due to differences in construction (of the same model) for states other than California. Does it come up by serial number? Is it discovered during the 10-day CA waiting period?
Is there a possibility my friend purchases what he believes to be a qualified CA roster gun, only to be turned away because the serial number or upgrade shows it wasn't built for sale in CA? Is there a way for the purchaser to know this before sending thousands of dollars to a dealer who may be out-of-state?
I am not looking for a loophole as you have suggested, and I resent the implication. If I have asked a sensitive question that is best left unanswered, keep your misguided accusations regarding my intentions to yourself.
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Old 02-02-2017, 11:26 PM
timeexposure timeexposure is offline
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I think I asked a bad question.
I guess as a newbie to the hobby, I need to take some sensitivity training to learn not to ask offensive questions. Feeling a bit like I farted in church...
Let's just drop the question before someone else feels their FFL livelihood is being challenged. That wasn't my intent.
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  #5  
Old 02-03-2017, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
What you are asking is what you can get away with that could possible cost the FFL their license or fines.

Sights do not affect a guns roster ability.
I thought only night sights don't? I would have thought different factory sites could or fixed vs adjustable.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2017, 7:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timeexposure View Post
Not what I asked, but thanks for implying that I am out to get away with breaking the law and endangering the livelihood of an FFL.
I want to know how an FFL determines a particular gun whose model is on the roster is not eligible for transfer, due to differences in construction (of the same model) for states other than California. Does it come up by serial number? Is it discovered during the 10-day CA waiting period?
Is there a possibility my friend purchases what he believes to be a qualified CA roster gun, only to be turned away because the serial number or upgrade shows it wasn't built for sale in CA? Is there a way for the purchaser to know this before sending thousands of dollars to a dealer who may be out-of-state?
I am not looking for a loophole as you have suggested, and I resent the implication. If I have asked a sensitive question that is best left unanswered, keep your misguided accusations regarding my intentions to yourself.
Your simple question could have been:
How does a CA Dealer know if a pistol is on the roster if it doesn't come with a box?

All the other stuff you added isn't really relevant to what you want to know.

The easiest way to know for a purchaser is to ask the seller - "Is this the OEM model with SKU XYZ". If the seller represents it as factory OEM (but it has upgrades) I would find that odd. In most cases any upgrades they would try to recoup money for. If the seller doesn't know the exact model# / SKU then ask for the serial number so you / buyer / friend can check for validity of base model.

If it's really ambiguous I would ask the purchaser to provide me proof that it's OEM matching roster such as checking serial number with manufacturer.
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2017, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I thought only night sights don't? I would have thought different factory sites could or fixed vs adjustable.
Most manufacturers who put Target sights on have a different sku to my knowledge.
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  #8  
Old 02-03-2017, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timeexposure View Post
I think I asked a bad question.
I guess as a newbie to the hobby, I need to take some sensitivity training to learn not to ask offensive questions. Feeling a bit like I farted in church...
Let's just drop the question before someone else feels their FFL livelihood is being challenged. That wasn't my intent.
You might just ask the FFL you intend to transfer it through. Tell them the specific gun and changes and they can tell you whether or not they can transfer it to you.

Jeff

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  #9  
Old 02-03-2017, 11:41 AM
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Only the exact firearm which was tested can be transferred, any changes, other than night sights, makes it not on the certified list.

If the grips are changed, the color changed or even engraving, then it is not considered to be on the certified list. That is how stupid it is, but that does not matter as it is the law.

To answer the question, some FFLs investigate more, some less, but the simple fact that the buyer KNOWS that it has been modified and is NOT the model listed on the certified list means that they should not attempt to transfer it.

What exactly the FFL will do, even if it is on the certified list but without documentation as to what exactly what it is, or what the CA DOJ might do to either the buyer or the FFL is unknown, but it is not about what you can get away with. I would strongly suggest that you don't try to get away with anything as it could get very expensive if things happen to go wrong.

You might check to see if the firearm can be bought as listed, then have it sent back after it is transferred to have any modifications that are wanted. That is legal.
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  #10  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:27 AM
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I will advise my friend that serial numbers are cross-checked with the manufacturer to confirm the gun meets the qualification as an eligible firearm for sale in CA.
That should keep him from trying to use a loophole. Thanks to all who responded.
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  #11  
Old 02-04-2017, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timeexposure View Post
I will advise my friend that serial numbers are cross-checked with the manufacturer to confirm the gun meets the qualification as an eligible firearm for sale in CA.
That should keep him from trying to use a loophole. Thanks to all who responded.
That plus confirm the firearm is still in OEM configuration.
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Old 02-04-2017, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
You might just ask the FFL you intend to transfer it through. Tell them the specific gun and changes and they can tell you whether or not they can transfer it to you.

Jeff

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If it's upgraded, you could also ask for the OEM parts to be reinstalled and the upgraded parts sent directly to you.
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
That plus confirm the firearm is still in OEM configuration.


Would be tough if slide top serrations were added
I'll mention it to my friend. I doubt he'll try to sneak one past the FFL. I think of him as having a non-practicing criminal mind, and I've only known him to have a straight moral compass. He just likes to argue.
He should have been an attorney.
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2017, 1:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timeexposure View Post
Would be tough if slide top serrations were added
I'll mention it to my friend. I doubt he'll try to sneak one past the FFL. I think of him as having a non-practicing criminal mind, and I've only known him to have a straight moral compass. He just likes to argue.
He should have been an attorney.
Top Serrations would be an issue! As an aside. I once asked someone at CA DOJ why color matters. Granted this wasn't someone high up, but the response was funny (paraphrased):
"Different colors might effect the weight which in turn might impact the drop test."

So those slide serrations may cause the firearm to not operate properly anymore with the CA DOJ logic!!
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:53 AM
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I think a more understandable example of his question is when a company like ZEV or Salient takes a GLOCK G17 and makes a bunch of modifications to it and sends it into California.

My understanding is those guns are no longer considered on-roster because there are material changes to the firearm that was submitted to CADOJ
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Old 02-05-2017, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Top Serrations would be an issue! As an aside. I once asked someone at CA DOJ why color matters. Granted this wasn't someone high up, but the response was funny (paraphrased):
"Different colors might effect the weight which in turn might impact the drop test."

So those slide serrations may cause the firearm to not operate properly anymore with the CA DOJ logic!!
I asked about engraving and the person at the CA DOJ said that it was because it was not as tested with the same engraving. I should have pointed out that the engraving is never the same since the serial number is different.

I have to wonder how much of a difference in weight engraving or color would make, but then again I think that most know the real reason why.
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Old 02-05-2017, 7:35 PM
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If so much as a grip screw is changed it is no longer the same pistol as was submitted to CADOJ and is no longer considered "on-roster"
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Old 02-12-2017, 3:53 PM
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Just to be clear, I've ordered four different rostered handguns to three (3) different FFLs, with night sights installed by the out of state dealer/shop and this was absolutely never an issue. The gun boxer came with the original sights and the night sight empty box purchases. This is empirically not an issue. But trigger variant alteration is not allowed.

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Old 02-12-2017, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HecklerNKoch View Post
Just to be clear, I've ordered four different rostered handguns to three (3) different FFLs, with night sights installed by the out of state dealer/shop and this was absolutely never an issue. The gun boxer came with the original sights and the night sight empty box purchases. This is empirically not an issue. But trigger variant alteration is not allowed.
Night sights are specifically excluded from being a problem with respect to the certified list. If you go to the CA DOJ website for certified firearms you will see such a message:


http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/


Quote:
All handguns listed on the roster are approved with or without night sights.
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