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Old 09-01-2016, 2:59 PM
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Default C&R Question

I have an FFL3. Here's where I'm getting confused. I just bought a mint in the box Winchester 92 John Wayne 100 year commemorative and figured it was a modern rifle and did the DROS thru an FFL1 with the 10 day wait. Now I'm looking at a 94 Wells Fargo commemorative in an auction and the seller is stating that the gun qualifies as a C&R?? I just wrote him asking how, but thought I'd toss it out here for clarification... Since it's a collectible does that mean it would qualify, and it doesn't need to be 50 years old?? If that's the case I could have done a cash'n'carry on the JW and it would have saved me the second 300 mile round trip.... Grrr!!
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:10 PM
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it either needs to be 50-years old (relic), or listed by ATF in the C&R lists (curio)

just because a manufacturer makes a commemorative, doesn't make it a curio.


https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics


edit: looking at the list, I don't see any Winchester 92 John Wayne commemoratives listed, but there is a 94 Wells Fargo listed.

Winchester Model 94, Wells Fargo and Company, commemorative, carbines.
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Last edited by ke6guj; 09-01-2016 at 3:14 PM..
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
edit: looking at the list, I don't see any Winchester 92 John Wayne commemoratives listed, but there is a 94 Wells Fargo listed.

Winchester Model 94, Wells Fargo and Company, commemorative, carbines.
I just found that list. There is a section somewhere that says a gun may not be on the list, but if it's worth more as a collector than as a user, it can also qualify. Even if it isn't 50 years old.. I did see the two '94 JW's listed. I know it's a moot point on the JW, but the next time I'll know.... Thanks for the input...
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:32 PM
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yes, but someone needs to submit that info to ATF to ask to be included on the list. you can't just decide "this is a collector gun so it is C&R".

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
  • A. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
  • B. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
  • C. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) for a formal classification.
if it hasn't been formally classified as a curio, then you can't claim that it is C&R.
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
I just found that list. There is a section somewhere that says a gun may not be on the list, but if it's worth more as a collector than as a user, it can also qualify. Even if it isn't 50 years old.. I did see the two '94 JW's listed. I know it's a moot point on the JW, but the next time I'll know.... Thanks for the input...
Model 94 JW is not the same as the Model 92 JW that you said you had, unless that was a typo. It appears that Winchester made both M94 JW's and M92 JW's
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Last edited by ke6guj; 09-01-2016 at 3:36 PM..
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
I just found that list. There is a section somewhere that says a gun may not be on the list, but if it's worth more as a collector than as a user, it can also qualify. Even if it isn't 50 years old.. I did see the two '94 JW's listed. I know it's a moot point on the JW, but the next time I'll know.... Thanks for the input...
Value is not relevant. It's either 50+years old or on the BATFE C&R list. No exceptions.
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Old 09-01-2016, 3:47 PM
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If it's the JW 94, it qualifies as it's on the BATFE list. Did a C&C with that and self-registered about a year or so back.
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Old 09-01-2016, 7:43 PM
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Just to clarify things a little. The gun is a Winchester JW '92 100 Year Anniversary, not a '94. Limited run of a 1000. So, not a typo in my first post.

It seems there are three ways that a gun is classified as a C&R.
I pasted a copy out of the C&R ATF List.

Curios & Relics

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR 478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

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Old 09-01-2016, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Just to clarify things a little. The gun is a Winchester JW '92 100 Year Anniversary, not a '94. Limited run of a 1000. So, not a typo in my first post.

It seems there are three ways that a gun is classified as a C&R.
I pasted a copy out of the C&R ATF List.

Curios & Relics

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR 478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

This was already addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
yes, but someone needs to submit that info to ATF to ask to be included on the list. you can't just decide "this is a collector gun so it is C&R".

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
  • A. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
  • B. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
  • C. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) for a formal classification.
if it hasn't been formally classified as a curio, then you can't claim that it is C&R.
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Old 09-01-2016, 8:39 PM
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OP, you failed to mention if you also have a COE to go along with your 03FFL. If you don't, it doesn't matter as you would still need to go through a 01FFL and the 10 day wait.
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Old 09-01-2016, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Just to clarify things a little. The gun is a Winchester JW '92 100 Year Anniversary, not a '94. Limited run of a 1000. So, not a typo in my first post.
but not one that ATF considers to be a curio and therefore not C&R.
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

FrontSight Training Course certificates available $25, PM for details on them and other options.
No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer.
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  #12  
Old 09-02-2016, 4:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
OP, you failed to mention if you also have a COE to go along with your 03FFL. If you don't, it doesn't matter as you would still need to go through a 01FFL and the 10 day wait.
Sigh.... Yes I also have the COE....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
but not one that ATF considers to be a curio and therefore not C&R.
OK, According to the definition of a C&R, the '92 JW is not listed and therefore not a C&R, but it probably will be someday. They're just not going to inspect mine to get it on the list. I really don't need to worry as it went thru the 10 day DROS anyway. This whole thread started because I ran across a Wells Fargo '94 claiming to be C&R and couldn't find it listed. Found I just wasn't looking in the right section. So the issue, or confussion, started when the WF'94 was a C&R and not 50 years old, and the JW'92 wasn't. Now I know and life is good again. Thanks for all the input.
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