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  #1  
Old 08-22-2016, 1:46 AM
home home is offline
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Default PPT DROS Delay help

To all Calguners

I have learned a lot about guns and laws from Calguns. I am very thankful.

Here is my problem which I couldn't find a clear path

I used to buy guns brand new which went through DROS no issues. This time due to my budget I decided to buy from Calguns member.

Everything went very well, met the seller, checked firearm, paid seller, finished DROS paper work.

A few days later, FFL dealer told me that my DROS was delayed. Then we started to discuss what's next

Turned out my local FFL wont release firearm even after 30 days delay/ undetermined. When I asked dealer what's my option, dealer didn't give me clear answer.

Here I am, seller has my money, dealer has my firearm, DROS delayed, dealer will keep it unless he got approve status on my DROS.

1. Can I ask dealer to give firearm to another FFL who is more friendly on 30 days rules?

2. Can I re DROS just the lower and get the upper and etc to minimize my lost?

3. I have not hit 30 days yet. When should I do live scan?

4. If seller is kind enough to return partial money, can seller just walk in and get the gun back? Cancel DROS

5. If there is some error on my background, which takes time to fix. Do I have to re-DROS every 30 days to keep it under my name.

6. Since dealer won't release, can dealer take over the ownership certain days after undetermined status?

I know I have asked a lot of questions. That's how I feel when I know my DROS delayed. so helpless, even I am 110% confident I am clean.

Any answers to those questions or any advice are appreciated.

Thanks everyone
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  #2  
Old 08-22-2016, 4:24 AM
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The problem is most likely the gun, it could either be stolen or flagged when its serial number is used. The best thing to do is get the upper and any non lower parts so you dont lose your money. In this day and age, many guns are going to flood the market, and it would be wise to run the serial number first through a police station just to make sure your next weapon is not in a lost/stolen database.
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  #3  
Old 08-22-2016, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by home View Post
To all Calguners

I have learned a lot about guns and laws from Calguns. I am very thankful.

Here is my problem which I couldn't find a clear path

I used to buy guns brand new which went through DROS no issues. This time due to my budget I decided to buy from Calguns member.

Everything went very well, met the seller, checked firearm, paid seller, finished DROS paper work.

A few days later, FFL dealer told me that my DROS was delayed. Then we started to discuss what's next

Turned out my local FFL wont release firearm even after 30 days delay/ undetermined. When I asked dealer what's my option, dealer didn't give me clear answer.

Here I am, seller has my money, dealer has my firearm, DROS delayed, dealer will keep it unless he got approve status on my DROS.

1. Can I ask dealer to give firearm to another FFL who is more friendly on 30 days rules?

2. Can I re DROS just the lower and get the upper and etc to minimize my lost?

3. I have not hit 30 days yet. When should I do live scan?

4. If seller is kind enough to return partial money, can seller just walk in and get the gun back? Cancel DROS

5. If there is some error on my background, which takes time to fix. Do I have to re-DROS every 30 days to keep it under my name.

6. Since dealer won't release, can dealer take over the ownership certain days after undetermined status?

I know I have asked a lot of questions. That's how I feel when I know my DROS delayed. so helpless, even I am 110% confident I am clean.

Any answers to those questions or any advice are appreciated.

Thanks everyone
I'm assuming this transfer is on the Rifle you PMed me about. This advice won't work for off roster handguns.

1. Yes you can. If he agrees he will have a fee to ship it. You will also need to check the dealer you are transferring too. Dealers can charge whatever they want for dealer transfers and some shops are pretty expensive.

2. In theory yes. There are some maybe here .

3. Do you know why you're delayed? I normally don't recommend live scan unless you are denied. Again this will have to do with your records. We don't know your history so we can't really comment.

4. This one can be complicated. Perhaps if you both went in together. I wouldn't release to a seller unless the buyer was denied or both the buyer and seller came in together and agreed to cancel the sale. The dealer will keep the DROS fee.

5. No you don't and I suggest you don't. You will have to come to an agreement with the FFL about holding your firearm as you clean up your record. Make sure to ask about storage fees and how long you can leave it without it becoming abandoned property.

6. If the dealer agrees he can transfer the firearm to another dealer.
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2016, 8:50 AM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
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In theory..if you are denied the DOJ will mail the dealer a NICS number for the seller to return the firearm.
Since they did not deny you no such letter will be mailed.

The PC is pretty clear if you are denied it must go to the seller and if not the seller they have to turn over to law enforcement.

It also seems pretty clear that the FFL can not simply hold onto the firearm. There job is deliver..return to owner or surrender to Law Enforcement.

Not keep because they don't feel comfortable delivering. In many other states NICS can only delay for three days and the dealer can then release. Very few dealers will not....I don't get why CA FFL's are so stupid and want to deny your 2nd amendment rights.

Quote:
12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm
. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032
. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any
additional fees.
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2016, 9:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
In theory..if you are denied the DOJ will mail the dealer a NICS number for the seller to return the firearm.
Since they did not deny you no such letter will be mailed.

The PC is pretty clear if you are denied it must go to the seller and if not the seller they have to turn over to law enforcement.

It also seems pretty clear that the FFL can not simply hold onto the firearm. There job is deliver..return to owner or surrender to Law Enforcement.

Not keep because they don't feel comfortable delivering. In many other states NICS can only delay for three days and the dealer can then release. Very few dealers will not....I don't get why CA FFL's are so stupid and want to deny your 2nd amendment rights.
Actually there are some questions about this in regards to the OP's situation.

The law is very clear if the buyer is denied. The firearm is immediately returned to the seller.

In the case of DOJ's undetermined nonsense things become more confusing.
If OP becomes undetermined he has not been denied so the hard and fast return to seller doesn't come into play. It all comes down to the FFL's store policy. If they wanted to they could call and get the NICS number and release the firearm. Or they could refuse to release, but the buyer hasn't been "denied".
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2016, 10:47 AM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
In the case of DOJ's undetermined nonsense things become more confusing.
If OP becomes undetermined he has not been denied so the hard and fast return to seller doesn't come into play. It all comes down to the FFL's store policy. If they wanted to they could call and get the NICS number and release the firearm. Or they could refuse to release, but the buyer hasn't been "denied".
The PC still seems pretty clear.
Quote:
The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited
Since the buyer is not prohibited the dealer is choosing to hold property for no legal reason.
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2016, 12:30 PM
home home is offline
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Thanks for you guys advice. I will try every step to resolve this DROS Delay and provide updates
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  #8  
Old 08-22-2016, 12:44 PM
home home is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
The PC still seems pretty clear.


Since the buyer is not prohibited the dealer is choosing to hold property for no legal reason.
from dealer's words, it is his policy he will not release the firearm, since he has no access to the recipient's records or a way of determining the eligibility of the firearm recipient. He is unwilling to assume the liability of releasing a firearm to a recipient who might be ineligible to legal receive one, as normally determined by DOJ's background check system.
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  #9  
Old 08-22-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by home View Post
from dealer's words, it is his policy he will not release the firearm, since he has no access to the recipient's records or a way of determining the eligibility of the firearm recipient. He is unwilling to assume the liability of releasing a firearm to a recipient who might be ineligible to legal receive one, as normally determined by DOJ's background check system.
Ask him if he likes his court dates in the morning or afternoon, and you will try and accommodate him when you sue him for failure to perform. The law allows him to release the firearm after 30 days when it becomes undetermined. If he does not, that his his choice, and he is then liable for the money you paid for the firearm.
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  #10  
Old 08-22-2016, 1:11 PM
home home is offline
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Before we make a deal, I did ask seller if he is the owner of his gun. Seller replied to me Yes on private message. The seller seems legit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockBottomInc View Post
The problem is most likely the gun, it could either be stolen or flagged when its serial number is used. The best thing to do is get the upper and any non lower parts so you dont lose your money. In this day and age, many guns are going to flood the market, and it would be wise to run the serial number first through a police station just to make sure your next weapon is not in a lost/stolen database.
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  #11  
Old 08-22-2016, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Ask him if he likes his court dates in the morning or afternoon, and you will try and accommodate him when you sue him for failure to perform. The law allows him to release the firearm after 30 days when it becomes undetermined. If he does not, that his his choice, and he is then liable for the money you paid for the firearm.
He need not deliver, if your contract for the FFL's services specified that the FFL need not deliver to an undetermined. The FFL's policy is not necessarily part of your contract and it is questionable whether or not one could insist on making it a part of the contract since and FFL is required to perform private party transfers.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2016, 1:55 PM
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home,

Welcome to CG. Sorry you have fallen into the typical DROS "delayed" quagmire. More and more DROS requests to DOJ are "delayed". I personally see this, as just another stumbling block that DOJ intentionally places in the path of lawful gun purchasers.

Ca-DOJ is after all headed by the Ca-AG. Who is an avowed anti 2A politician. Who has built her career on an anti 2A platform.

At this point your "delayed" status is just a holding pattern. DOJ can delay for up to 30 days. At that time they either make a "denied" or "undetermined" ruling.


If denied they send you a letter, stating the reason for denial.

If the status is ruled "undetermined" there is no legal reason the FFL cannot release. That is their choice. There is no legal liability to the FFL for releasing on an undetermined status. Some are turds and choose to play anti 2A advocates and refuse.

If "denied" the legal obligations of the FFL are clear.


IMO, if a FFL makes the choice to be a turd. They should be publicly outed here on CG for all to see. Turds should be avoided by all. They stink.

JM2c...............good luck.
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2016, 1:55 PM
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My memory was just jogged.
So the only time I had an undetermined on a PPT DOJ called me to give the NICS approval number for the seller like they do when a PPT is denied.

So your dealer will most likely return to the seller. Have seller meet you at a better shop and re PPT. Ask dealer for refund in fees since its there choice...not the law to refuse to transfer to you.
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2016, 2:18 PM
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Most common question asked to us is "Do you release on undetermined"

This is a question all buyers should ask BEFORE DROSing a gun.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2016, 2:18 PM
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Thank you very much. That's very helpful. I am at Sacramento area. Do you by chance know any FFL who has 30 days release policy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
My memory was just jogged.
So the only time I had an undetermined on a PPT DOJ called me to give the NICS approval number for the seller like they do when a PPT is denied.

So your dealer will most likely return to the seller. Have seller meet you at a better shop and re PPT. Ask dealer for refund in fees since its there choice...not the law to refuse to transfer to you.
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Old 08-22-2016, 2:21 PM
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I learned this the hard way. I didn't even think of that "Delay" topic since I am clean and I never had any issue on DROS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baboosh View Post
Most common question asked to us is "Do you release on undetermined"

This is a question all buyers should ask BEFORE DROSing a gun.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2016, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by home View Post
Thank you very much. That's very helpful. I am at Sacramento area. Do you by chance know any FFL who has 30 days release policy?
I do not sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by home View Post
I learned this the hard way. I didn't even think of that "Delay" topic since I am clean and I never had any issue on DROS.

I just had an undetermined on a full time paid peace officer for a very large agency. Just another reason to not pay attention to undetermined DROS's.
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2016, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
My memory was just jogged.
So the only time I had an undetermined on a PPT DOJ called me to give the NICS approval number for the seller like they do when a PPT is denied.

So your dealer will most likely return to the seller. Have seller meet you at a better shop and re PPT. Ask dealer for refund in fees since its there choice...not the law to refuse to transfer to you.
You should double check that letter DOJ sent you. Everyone I have received on a undetermined PPT was a NICS number releasing the buyer.....not the seller. Once you have the number you can release. They are slow with the letters but if you call you can get the number immediately. They are very fast and friendly on the phone.
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Last edited by Condorguns; 08-22-2016 at 3:50 PM..
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  #19  
Old 08-22-2016, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
He need not deliver, if your contract for the FFL's services specified that the FFL need not deliver to an undetermined. The FFL's policy is not necessarily part of your contract and it is questionable whether or not one could insist on making it a part of the contract since and FFL is required to perform private party transfers.
And my retort would be, "we'll argue that in court. See you there, don't be late." FFLs choice: they either follow the law and deliver, make me whole, or we go to court. 1, 2, or 3. Choose one.

YMMV, I have a lot of time for this, others may not.

https://www.calffl.org/memos/memoran...-transactions/

Quote:
On behalf of CAL-FFL and our dealer members, firearms attorney Jason Davis of Mission Viejo, CA, has evaluated the issue and warns that firearm retailers should be mindful of the risks of improperly denying a firearm purchaser their property.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 08-22-2016 at 4:03 PM..
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  #20  
Old 08-22-2016, 4:28 PM
BONECUTTER BONECUTTER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condorguns View Post
You should double check that letter DOJ sent you. Everyone I have received on a undetermined PPT was a NICS number releasing the buyer.....not the seller. Once you have the number you can release. They are slow with the letters but if you call you can get the number immediately. They are very fast and friendly on the phone.

They called to give me the NICS number for the seller in case I was not planning on releasing on undetermined. The letter they mailed just have the NICS number for the buyer.
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Old 08-22-2016, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
And my retort would be, "we'll argue that in court. See you there, don't be late." FFLs choice: they either follow the law and deliver, make me whole, or we go to court. 1, 2, or 3. Choose one.

YMMV, I have a lot of time for this, others may not.

https://www.calffl.org/memos/memoran...-transactions/
I read that or something much like it prepared for the a California FFL's Association. Bruse Weiss first posted it on Calguns.

They are saying pretty much what I am. The problem with so many dealers wrongfully denying buyers their purchases is that many are unaware of the law and/or do not have the time to go to court over what may be no more than a few hundred dollars. Even if they win the lose a days pay. This is the kind of thing that is ripe to be handled as a class action.
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Old 08-22-2016, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockBottomInc View Post
The problem is most likely the gun, it could either be stolen or flagged when its serial number is used. The best thing to do is get the upper and any non lower parts so you dont lose your money. In this day and age, many guns are going to flood the market, and it would be wise to run the serial number first through a police station just to make sure your next weapon is not in a lost/stolen database.
How does one go about having the police run firearm serial numbers for them?
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  #23  
Old 08-22-2016, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by home View Post
Turned out my local FFL wont release firearm even after 30 days delay/ undetermined. When I asked dealer what's my option, dealer didn't give me clear answer.
There is a difference.

Delay is a hold by the DOJ... must not release.
Undetermined is legal to release, but some FFLs won't. Only recourse if they won't release on undetermined is for it to go back to the seller and you try a different FFL.
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