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  #1  
Old 06-24-2017, 9:10 AM
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Default 03FFL and COE

Good morning,

I had an 03 FFL back in the day before a COE was required in California, but never ended up renewing it and just let it lapse. Since rebuilding my C&R collection, I've become interested in re obtaining my 03 and getting a COE so that I can have older firearms shipped to me once again.

I have the link below and it looks like I just have to submit that form and get fingerprints taken. For some reason, before I thought that I had to get something signed off by my County CLEO and have him approve it much like a CCW, but I must've been mistaken?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/coeapp.pdf

What's the turnaround on the COE generally?

Does having an 03 open me up to ATF being able to come inspect my safe, or is it just the bound book inspection if they ask?

Thanks everyone!
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2017, 9:30 AM
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No notification to or sign off from LE to get a COE. Turnaround 30 - 90 days.

ATF can not come unannounced to your home for inspection just because you have 03FFL, can only request to see your book and that can be done offsite.
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2017, 9:44 AM
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Thanks for the info.

03 + COE doesn't have any impact on handguns right? Those even if older still have to be DROS'd?
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Old 06-24-2017, 9:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCOD View Post
Thanks for the info.

03 + COE doesn't have any impact on handguns right? Those even if older still have to be DROS'd?
Have to be DROSed if acquired in state or shipped into state. But even without a COE, you can still leave the state and personally bring back C&R handguns with no DROS, and report within 5 days.
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Old 06-24-2017, 1:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCOD View Post
...
I've become interested in re obtaining my 03 and getting a COE so that I can have older firearms shipped to me once again.
You might want to check into the laws since firearms can not be shipped directly to you, although some disagree (and refuse to explain how they are exempt from the CA PC), but it does allow you to be exempt from the waiting period for C&R firearms.

See CA PC 27585 and 27565

Quote:
27585.

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into
this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm
that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015,
from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to
a dealer
in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures
set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and
Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:

(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.
...

Quote:
27565.

(a) This section applies in the following circumstances:

(1) A person is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with
Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued
pursuant thereto.

(2) The licensed premises of that person are within this state.

(3) The licensed collector acquires, outside of this state, a handgun, and
commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm.


(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of
this state
pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title
18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports
the firearm into this state.

(5) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27
of the Code of Federal Regulations.

(b) Within five days of transporting a firearm into this state under the
circumstances described in subdivision (a), the licensed collector shall report
the acquisition of that firearm to the department in a format prescribed by the
department.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 28. Effective January 1, 2012.)
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Old 06-24-2017, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
No notification to or sign off from LE to get a COE. Turnaround 30 - 90 days.

ATF can not come unannounced to your home for inspection just because you have 03FFL, can only request to see your book and that can be done offsite.
During my ATF audit (dealer) the agent told me that they can request to see your bound book + inventory to make sure they match. Is this no longer the case and they can only see your 03 bound book?
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Old 06-24-2017, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
During my ATF audit (dealer) the agent told me that they can request to see your bound book + inventory to make sure they match. Is this no longer the case and they can only see your 03 bound book?
I have no idea, I guess they could request to see inventory but it does not have to be done at your house? The rules are slightly different for 03 vs 01 FFL. I have not looked at the regs, maybe someone will come along with a citation or more info.
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  #8  
Old 06-24-2017, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
I have no idea, I guess they could request to see inventory but it does not have to be done at your house? The rules are slightly different for 03 vs 01 FFL. I have not looked at the regs, maybe someone will come along with a citation or more info.
Does not need to be done at your house, but if you have a large collection it might be easier for the 03 holder .. Truthfully, if there is something they are "after" you for they'll just get a warrant. If you have a large collection it's probably easier to do it at your house, but I understand some people don't like govt folks inside their homes.
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2017, 8:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCOD View Post
Thanks for the info.

03 + COE doesn't have any impact on handguns right? Those even if older still have to be DROS'd?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Have to be DROSed if acquired in state or shipped into state. But even without a COE, you can still leave the state and personally bring back C&R handguns with no DROS, and report within 5 days.
Having 03 + COE also exempts you from the 10 day wait on all C&R firearms thru a dealer, and the 1 in 30 handgun restriction (C&R only) from dealer stock.

Having an 03 + COE will also exempt you from the new upcoming ammo laws.
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:51 PM
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Kemasa,

I thought the whole purpose of getting a COE was that it allowed C&R eligible firearms to be shipped directly to you. Clearly I misunderstood that. Thanks for posting the text.
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2017, 5:40 PM
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ATF doesn't have time or staff to audit 03 licensees and will not call unless they are actively tracing a firearm and believe you might have information. Same as following a regular trace and you did a 4473.

But, from all the legal reading I've done, in California the 03 doesn't allow direct shipments. Federal, yes. State, no.

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  #12  
Old 06-27-2017, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by weaselfire View Post
ATF doesn't have time or staff to audit 03 licensees and will not call unless they are actively tracing a firearm and believe you might have information. Same as following a regular trace and you did a 4473.

But, from all the legal reading I've done, in California the 03 doesn't allow direct shipments. Federal, yes. State, no.

Jeff

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My 03 hasn't been audited in 10 years. Also, the auditor that was doing our shop would be the same auditor that does 03s (not a different set of employees).. Given that they are trying to keep up with all the non 03 FFLs I'd have to believe the bolded above is true.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2017, 10:12 PM
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So 60-90 days for a COE. What would be the time frame for an 03 FFL?

Wonder what would happen if they noticed monthly orders of ammo in the 1-3k rd range. Like the idea of getting an 03 to purchase ammo but also don't need to open myself for possible trouble by ordering a lot.
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  #14  
Old 06-28-2017, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Psychbiker View Post
So 60-90 days for a COE. What would be the time frame for an 03 FFL?

Wonder what would happen if they noticed monthly orders of ammo in the 1-3k rd range. Like the idea of getting an 03 to purchase ammo but also don't need to open myself for possible trouble by ordering a lot.
Who is going to notice, how are they going to notice and why should ordering ammo by the case get one in trouble? It really isn't all that uncommon.
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2017, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Psychbiker View Post
So 60-90 days for a COE. What would be the time frame for an 03 FFL?

Wonder what would happen if they noticed monthly orders of ammo in the 1-3k rd range. Like the idea of getting an 03 to purchase ammo but also don't need to open myself for possible trouble by ordering a lot.
Who is "they"?
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  #16  
Old 06-28-2017, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychbiker View Post
So 60-90 days for a COE. What would be the time frame for an 03 FFL?

Wonder what would happen if they noticed monthly orders of ammo in the 1-3k rd range. Like the idea of getting an 03 to purchase ammo but also don't need to open myself for possible trouble by ordering a lot.
Oh crap. Now that it's out there, some legislator from San Francisco will introduce a bill...

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  #17  
Old 06-28-2017, 9:51 AM
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Oh crap. Now that it's out there, some legislator from San Francisco will introduce a bill...

Jeff

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I'm not sure, but doesn't SF ban online ammo orders outright?
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Old 06-28-2017, 9:52 AM
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I really need to get off my a$s and get this paperwork going
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Old 07-02-2017, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You might want to check into the laws since firearms can not be shipped directly to you, although some disagree (and refuse to explain how they are exempt from the CA PC), but it does allow you to be exempt from the waiting period for C&R firearms.

See CA PC 27585 and 27565
Several months ago I explained how the exemption worked for having C&R long guns shipped to the home of people with a FFL03 and COE was in the CA PC and you told me I was wrong.

I will do it again.

Quote:
27585.
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1) A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565.
I bolded the key point, the wording is a licensed collector who is subject to and complies with section 27565. This is where everybody then looks at section 27565. There is another PC though that exempts some FFL03 from the provisions of section 27565.


Quote:
ARTICLE 6. Exceptions to the Requirement of Using a Dealer for a Private Party Firearms Transaction [27850 - 27966]

27966.
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.
Read the part I bolded for emphasis and I will repeat it here: Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm

So section 27966 provides the legal exemptions from section 27565. That is why in section 27585 their is the peculiar wording of "A licensed collector who is subject to and complies with Section 27565." Not all licensed collectors are subject to section 27565.

I will let you read 27966 yourself for the full details.

The summary is the sale has to be infrequent, not a handgun, the firearm is a C&R, the person receiving it has a COE and FFL03, and within 30 days of receipt, the firearm shall file a report with the DOJ.

So if all this applies, section 27565 does not apply.

This is what exempts people with a FFL03 and COE who are receiving C&R long guns whether from an in-state or out of state source from having to use a FFL01 for the transfer. Notice, section 27966 has no wording about the source of the gun being from either in-state or out-of-state.

So read section 27966 and explain to me how this does not permit one with a FFL03 and COE from buying a C&R long gun and having it legally shipped to the address on the FFL03 without having it to be first delivered to a FFL01. Remember, section 27565 does not apply so does not count in your explanation.

BTW, I got this from a gun attorney because I thought it was not legal and I wanted conformation I was correct. He pointed out section 27966. When I told you that, months ago, you told me I needed a better attorney or you were calling BS. I never responded back because I am confident after my attorney consult and reading the PC myself.
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  #20  
Old 07-02-2017, 3:06 PM
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27565, 27545, all the same, right?

I pointed out why you are wrong. You refused to answer questions.

27966 exempts 27545, but where does it exempt 27565?

You keep ignoring things.

You seem to confuse in state DROS with out of state and the requirement that the collector actually be out of state.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:31 AM
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San Francisco has some strange laws on lots of stuff, quite possible ammo shipments are already banned.

Unless you're illegal, then you get sanctuary and a college degree with your ammo order.

Okay, bad taste for an out of stater... I apologize.

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Last edited by weaselfire; 07-04-2017 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 07-05-2017, 6:09 PM
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Applied for both my COE and C&R (FFL03) licenses in April and received the COE after 2 months and still waiting on C&R (going on 3 months). Called the ATF and all they would say was "it shows as being processed. If you haven't received it within two weeks call us back"........
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Old 07-10-2017, 6:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
27565, 27545, all the same, right?

I pointed out why you are wrong. You refused to answer questions.

27966 exempts 27545, but where does it exempt 27565?

You keep ignoring things.

You seem to confuse in state DROS with out of state and the requirement that the collector actually be out of state.
Here is why professional sellers like the CMP and others beleieve that 27565 does not apply to the scenario we are talking about- which is a CnR long gun being purchased out of state (not in person) and mailed to a CA FFL03/COE holder.

27565 is very clear about what situation it applies to and it is not this one. It applies only when the collector "takes actual possession" and "transports it" into CA. So if we drive to Reno and buy a Mosin then 27565 is applicable. If not bringing it back yourself then 27545 applies. These sections artived in the PC together in 2014 so i doubt that 27565 completely supercedes 27545. If you beleive it does, then please exolain what situation is governed by 27545? Is it a zombie law? Just sits there without meaning?

Its an amportant topic for all of us so deserves discussion and education. I am open to learning more and just sharing what i beleive at present as i try to comply with the arcane laws.
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Old 07-10-2017, 7:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
No notification to or sign off from LE to get a COE. Turnaround 30 - 90 days.

ATF can not come unannounced to your home for inspection just because you have 03FFL, can only request to see your book and that can be done offsite.

Fairly certain it was a requirement to notify my local LE/Sheriff, within a certain time frame, when originally obtaining my 03/COE.
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Old 07-10-2017, 7:50 AM
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Fairly certain it was a requirement to notify my local LE/Sheriff, within a certain time frame, when originally obtaining my 03/COE.
Notification yes (copy of app I believe), but sign off not required.
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Old 07-10-2017, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
Here is why professional sellers like the CMP and others beleieve that 27565 does not apply to the scenario we are talking about- which is a CnR long gun being purchased out of state (not in person) and mailed to a CA FFL03/COE holder.

27565 is very clear about what situation it applies to and it is not this one. It applies only when the collector "takes actual possession" and "transports it" into CA. So if we drive to Reno and buy a Mosin then 27565 is applicable. If not bringing it back yourself then 27545 applies. These sections artived in the PC together in 2014 so i doubt that 27565 completely supercedes 27545. If you beleive it does, then please exolain what situation is governed by 27545? Is it a zombie law? Just sits there without meaning?

Its an amportant topic for all of us so deserves discussion and education. I am open to learning more and just sharing what i beleive at present as i try to comply with the arcane laws.
27565 is how you can be exempt from 27585. Shipped firearms don't apply since the person has to take actual possession out of state. So you have to find an exemption for 27585. It is quoted above.

You should agree that handguns have to go through a FFL, well, the change was made to apply to all.

So explain how you get around 27585.

The other applies to in-state.
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Old 07-10-2017, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
ARTICLE 6. Exceptions to the Requirement of Using a Dealer for a Private Party Firearms Transaction [27850 - 27966]

27966.
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
This is the funny part. Article 6, 27966 is an exception to the requirement of using a dealer for a PPT. Quite clearly an interstate sale is not a PPT, yet some try to use that. Plus it mentions 27545, not 27565 or 27585. 27565 does not matter because that is the exemption for 27585 where possession is actually acquired from out of state, so you need to find a real exemption to 27585 when the firearm is being shipped into CA, not other laws when it is being transfered intrastate.
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Old 07-10-2017, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K001 View Post
Fairly certain it was a requirement to notify my local LE/Sheriff, within a certain time frame, when originally obtaining my 03/COE.
Yes, you have to notify by sending a copy of your 03 FFL app to the CLEO, but you do not need CLEO sign off or approval. OP was asking about sign off and approval.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is the funny part. Article 6, 27966 is an exception to the requirement of using a dealer for a PPT. Quite clearly an interstate sale is not a PPT, yet some try to use that. Plus it mentions 27545, not 27565 or 27585. 27565 does not matter because that is the exemption for 27585 where possession is actually acquired from out of state, so you need to find a real exemption to 27585 when the firearm is being shipped into CA, not other laws when it is being transferred intrastate.
Actually a number of the other sections of Section 6 do cover interstate transfers and non-private parties so why would 27966 not cover them? The title of Section 6 is NOT "Private Party Transfers (PPT)" but rather " Exceptions to the Requirement of Using a Dealer for a Private Party Firearms Transactions."

This (to someone like me of common intelligence) says it is a list of exceptions to the need to use a dealer to transfer firearms from an out of state private party (Gunbroker seller for instance) and me here in CA. Here are a few of the interstate transactions contemplated under Section 6. I think we can agree that many of these are not at all PPT...

27855: " Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm made by an authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state, or of the federal government, to any public or private nonprofit historical society..."

27930: "(d) Subdivision (a) of Section 27585 does not apply to a person who imports a firearm into this state, brings a firearm into this state, or transports a firearm into this state if all of the following requirements are met:..."

I will add that I am not entrenched in this position and appreciate all the contributions Kemesa makes to our community. I am NOT trying to turn this into the usual CalGuns mud-wrestle. But I am trying to learn what our laws really say and why there is such variation in practice by seemingly sophisticated sellers like the CMP (which is a private party, not an FFL). As my new favorite quote reads:

"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

Last edited by familyfarm; 07-10-2017 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:27 AM
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The assembly version of the bill (AB-1609) that created PC27585 had a specific exemption for PC27966 imports. It was removed in the Senate and then passed without that exemption, which would have been PC27585(b)(6).

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...01320140AB1609

Here is the Assembly version:





And the Senate version where it was struck out:




Worth pondering. They had an exemption in there for C&R imports that did not involve taking possession physically out of state (27966), then they removed it and left only the exemption that requires C&R to be brought in physically by the licensee (27565).

So did they remove it because they thought it was superfluous/duplicitous, or did they remove it because they did not want to allow it? It would take something like meeting minutes, transcripts or similar for us to know...
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:42 PM
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With all due respect to the erudite analysis of arcane penal code sections, one cold hard fact remains: When a CA FFL03 / COE holder tries to buy a C&R long gun from an out of state dealer (such as via auction) that seller will usually require a CFLC number, which the 03/COE holder won't have. The transaction then hits a block wall and forces a middleman 01 into the equation.

Private sellers, CMP, and a few big name C&R retailers have been able to continue direct sales, but by all means try to buy a Mauser or Mosin from a pawn shop or sporting goods store in another state online with your 03/COE and see how far it gets you.
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Old 07-10-2017, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
With all due respect to the erudite analysis of arcane penal code sections, one cold hard fact remains: When a CA FFL03 / COE holder tries to buy a C&R long gun from an out of state dealer (such as via auction) that seller will usually require a CFLC number, which the 03/COE holder won't have. The transaction then hits a block wall and forces a middleman 01 into the equation.

Private sellers, CMP, and a few big name C&R retailers have been able to continue direct sales, but by all means try to buy a Mauser or Mosin from a pawn shop or sporting goods store in another state online with your 03/COE and see how far it gets you.
What Bobby says is true sadly but it is not right. We all know that C&R recipients are exempt from the CFLC requirement, so while he is correct that this creates a roadblock for unenlightened sellers, it is not due to a valid legal reason.

The fact that we have two PC sections which conflict with each other creates confusion, but does not mean we are asking them to do something illegal. 27966 still exists and sits within a group of PCs which are NOT limited to in-state transactions or PPTs (see above). I assume that's why the more sophisticated sellers like CMP, Empire, AIM, Classic etc follow the practice - because there is no clear law prohibiting it! Just as ill-informed GB sellers think they need a CFLC number to ship a C&R rifle to a FFL03/COE holder- Its all due to confusion wrought by CA and the DOJ. It suits them. Maybe our brilliant legislators intended to close this down but they did not close down the 27966 exemption. For now, only the smarter sellers understand and the DOJ will certainly not help. It is up to us to assert our increasingly limited rights in CA.

I know that some of the best legally informed Calgunners have given up this ship, but I have yet to see a clear reason why we cannot assert 27966 more confidently as CMP and others do. I have never seen Michel or another attorney definitively give up on this. Has anyone else?
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Old 07-10-2017, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
Actually a number of the other sections of Section 6 do cover interstate transfers and non-private parties so why would 27966 not cover them? The title of Section 6 is NOT "Private Party Transfers (PPT)" but rather " Exceptions to the Requirement of Using a Dealer for a Private Party Firearms Transactions."
The CA PC states what is illegal not what is legal, that is important to realize.

CA PC 27585 states that it illegal, so unless you can find some way to be exempt from that specifically, it is not legal.

Quote:
This (to someone like me of common intelligence) says it is a list of exceptions to the need to use a dealer to transfer firearms from an out of state private party (Gunbroker seller for instance) and me here in CA. Here are a few of the interstate transactions contemplated under Section 6. I think we can agree that many of these are not at all PPT...

27855: " Section 27545 does not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm made by an authorized law enforcement representative of a city, county, city and county, or state, or of the federal government, to any public or private nonprofit historical society..."
And where does this say anything about it coming from out of state? It also does not apply in this case.

Quote:
27930: "(d) Subdivision (a) of Section 27585 does not apply to a person who imports a firearm into this state, brings a firearm into this state, or transports a firearm into this state if all of the following requirements are met:..."
It was changed in 2016 and no longer says what you say it does.

Where are you looking up the CA PC?

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...30&lawCode=PEN

Quote:
Penal Code - PEN
PART 6. CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS [16000 - 34370]
( Part 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

TITLE 4. FIREARMS [23500 - 34370]
( Title 4 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

DIVISION 6. SALE, LEASE, OR TRANSFER OF FIREARMS [26500 - 28490]
( Division 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

CHAPTER 4. Crimes Relating to Sale, Lease, or Transfer of Firearms [27500 - 28000]
( Chapter 4 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


ARTICLE 6. Exceptions to the Requirement of Using a Dealer for a Private Party Firearms Transaction [27850 - 27966]
( Article 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


27930.

Section 27545 does not apply to deliveries, transfers, or returns of firearms made pursuant to any of the following:

(a) Sections 18000 and 18005.

(b) Division 4 (commencing with Section 18250) of Title 2.

(c) Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 33850) of Division 11.

(d) Sections 34005 and 34010.

(e) Section 29810.
(Amended November 8, 2016, by initiative Proposition 63, Sec. 10.2.)
Quote:
I will add that I am not entrenched in this position and appreciate all the contributions Kemesa makes to our community. I am NOT trying to turn this into the usual CalGuns mud-wrestle. But I am trying to learn what our laws really say and why there is such variation in practice by seemingly sophisticated sellers like the CMP (which is a private party, not an FFL). As my new favorite quote reads:

"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez
By logic and reason, there should be no reason why the firearm should not be able to be shipped directly to a C&R FFL holder. There is really not much of a different between having it shipped vs. picking it up from out of state. Unfortunately, that is not how the government works.

What is legal is not about what you can get away with, what people happen to do or anything other that whether it is legal or not since otherwise I could claim that speeding is legal since I see people doing it all the time and not getting caught.

The simple fact is that in order to claim it is legal, you have to find an exemption to 27585 which applies. There are some exceptions, but not from a non-related out of state seller, at least that I see.

There is one additional exemption that I see, but it has limits and you have to be not subject to 27560 and the firearm has to be imported into this country pursuant to provisions of Section 925(a)(4) of Title 18 of the United States Code. I can not find the exemption to 27560 though.

So what is the exemption to 27585? If you can comply with subdivision (b), (c), or (d) of Section 27920, which the only problem is that you have to not subject to the requirements of 27560, then you have your exemption.
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Old 07-10-2017, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familyfarm View Post
....
I know that some of the best legally informed Calgunners have given up this ship, but I have yet to see a clear reason why we cannot assert 27966 more confidently as CMP and others do. I have never seen Michel or another attorney definitively give up on this. Has anyone else?
27966?

Quote:

27966. Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
So do you think that the sale of a firearm from a dealer would ever be considered infrequent? If not, it ends right there. You might have something with a firearm from a non-FFL, but there is still a problem.

But what you are missing is another law which specifically prevents the firearm from being importing into CA, 27585. Inside of CA it is not an issue.

27545 says:

Quote:
27545. Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer’s license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).
A C&R FFL is not a dealer's license. So you need to get around this as well.

Again, you have to get around this:

Quote:
27585. (a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.
Did you purchase or otherwise obtain the firearm from outside of CA? If so, this applies. The exemption for collectors is 27565, but that requires that you take actual possession outside of CA, did you do that?
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Old 07-10-2017, 3:54 PM
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Kemasa -

Thanks for the energy you are spending to educate us. I really appreciate it. Yet I will persist one more time today. You are saying that 27966 does not protect us from 27545 and I think it does and so do other dealers, collectors and lawyers. As you say, anything the law does not say is illegal is legal.

I am saying that 27966 has equal weight to 27545 since if we comply with 27966 is exempts us from 27545 according to its text. And yes I do think that my acquisition of such out of state long guns is infrequent. So I think when I buy from the CMP (who is not a FFL) and they ship to my door I am covered by 27966. Lets go through it:

27966.
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
>> Check - I only do this a few times a year (what the CMP does is not an issue - not governed by CA law) and Section 16730 says that for long guns infrequent just means "not regular"

(b) The firearm is not a handgun. - Check

(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor. - Check

(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710. - Check

(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto. - Check

(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department. - Check (and also makes us compliant with 27560 below)

Checking these boxes wipes out 27545. Thats what CMP and the others cite in their policies. If you are saying that a seller cannot check the "infrequent" box I suggest it doesn't matter since the CA regs are governing only the CA portion of the transaction. State law and fed law do not limit the CMP from selling to based on "frequency"

Now lets move on with how we are complying with 27585. I suggest we are doing so as "personal importers" through 27560 which says :
27560.
(a) Within 60 days of bringing a handgun, and commencing January 1, 2014, any firearm, into this state, a personal firearm importer shall do one of the following:

(1) Forward by prepaid mail or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report prescribed by the department including information concerning that individual and a description of the firearm in question.

(2) Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the provisions of Section 27545 or in accordance with the provisions of an exemption from Section 27545.

Could you please explain why I am not complying with 27560 by filling out BOF 4100 or 961 correctly? Alternately, as above, we are exempted from 27545 through 27966 as above, so it seems like we could use either 1 or 2 above to comply with 27560 and thus be exempted from 27585.

Not trying to be difficult. I just think we have confusing and potentially conflicting sections of code and I can see that CMP and others have consulted attorneys and decided this is legal. I am trying to understand their position. What I se is enough conflict/confusion to say that this practice is not at all clearly prohibited in CA. DOJ continues to approve these "imports" for us as well.
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Old 07-10-2017, 4:15 PM
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Did you happen to read the definition of what a personal importer is? When did you move here? That is part of the definition of a personal firearm importer. Do you know what CA PC defines what a personal firearm importer is? Do you know what is meant by the term?

As for the rest, you assume the infrequent only applies to you, the buyer. But it really does not matter as the relevant CA PC is 27585 which you have to get past.

27560, why did you not include the first part? Did you bring in the firearm? No, you are having someone else bring it in.

Hint: a personal firearms importer is a person who is moving into CA. If you did not move to CA on or after 01-Jan-2014, it does not apply, it is in the definition in the section in the CA PC.

Again, you need to provide a VALID exemption to 27585. You have not done so yet.

This is what I find funny. People pick and choose what they want and ignore other things, including the definition of what they are trying to use.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:11 PM
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Silence.

BTW, the personal firearms importer is CA PC 17000.

Quote:
Penal Code - PEN
PART 6. CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS [16000 - 34370]
( Part 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

TITLE 1. PRELIMINARY PROVISIONS [16000 - 17360]
( Title 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

DIVISION 2. DEFINITIONS [16100 - 17360]
( Division 2 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

17000.

(a) As used in this part, until January 1, 2014, any reference to the term “personal firearm importer” shall be deemed to mean “personal handgun importer” and, on and after January 1, 2014, any reference to the term “personal handgun importer” shall be deemed to mean “personal firearm importer.” A “personal handgun importer,” until January 1, 2014, and commencing January 1, 2014, a “personal firearm importer” means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:

(1) The individual is not a person licensed pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2 of Division 6 of Title 4.

(2) The individual is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(3) The individual is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

(4) The individual is the owner of a firearm.

(5) The individual acquired that firearm outside of California.

(6) The individual moved into this state on or after January 1, 1998, in the case of a handgun, or in the case of a firearm that is not a handgun, on or after January 1, 2014, as a resident of this state.

(7) The individual intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998, or in the case of a firearm that is not a handgun, he or she intends to possess that firearm within this state on or after January 1, 2014.

(8) The firearm was not delivered to the individual by a person licensed pursuant to Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2 of Division 6 of Title 4, who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2 of Division 6 of Title 4.

(9) The individual, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported ownership of that firearm to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning the individual and a description of the firearm.

(10) The firearm is not a firearm that is prohibited by any provision listed in Section 16590.

(11) The firearm is not an assault weapon.

(12) The firearm is not a machinegun.

(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

(14) The firearm is not a .50 BMG rifle.

(15) The firearm is not a destructive device.

(b) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (a):

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.

(2) In the case of a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, residency shall be deemed to be established when the individual was discharged from active service in this state.
(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 745, Sec. 3. Effective January 1, 2012.)
If it was not transferred, you really don't own it.
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  #38  
Old 09-14-2017, 7:51 AM
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I've also been out of the C&R game for a while and am waiting for my COE renewal to get back to me. Can I get a couple things cleared up?

As an 03FFL and COE holder, I'm allowed to purchase C&R long guns without DROS. Am I able to sell C&R long guns to private parties who don't have an 03FFL without DROS?
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Old 09-14-2017, 8:34 AM
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C&R firearms shipped into CA has to go through a dealer.

I believe there are cases that you can personally buy a C&R long gun from a resident in CA. I don't think you can sell it to a person who does not have a C&R FFL without going through a dealer. I don't follow all of that since it does not apply to me.

You can buy any C&R firearm (excluding so-called a-salt weapons) when you are out of state and then fill out the form when you come back to CA.
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Old 09-14-2017, 8:49 AM
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I'm pretty sure that sales to non-exempt parties have to go through an 01 or 07, no more cash and carry to normal people (only to other 03/COE).

kemasa, I also thought that C&R long guns to 03/COE could be done cash and carry, and that C&R long guns could be shipped directly to the door of an 03/COE.
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