Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 01-18-2010, 8:49 AM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwood562 View Post
NOw I know that is not what a BUIS was made for but it is the manner that it is being used and the fact is that it is being used as a FG.

it is just a matter of time before somebody is the sacrifcial lamb and gets slaughtered in court by some over zealous DA or ATF agent.
Somewhat disagree there. If you're talking about using the AFG in a way it wasn't intended (pistol grasp instead of MMG style grip), then I'd agree with you. However, based on the rulemaking precedent, a case against a person using a flashlight mount or inverted BUIS like you describe might be hard paddling for a DA to win. Reread these links. The P.C. was made very specific as to what was banned.

Pages 17-22 http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf

Full background:
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php

If it's not a grip to begin with, I can't see how charges would be filed, let alone stick.
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-18-2010, 8:51 AM
oaklander oaklander is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Deep East Oakland
Posts: 11,105
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

My personal view is that using this on a featureless build is inviting trouble. I have the same opinion on using a forward MMG.

This is DESPITE this comment:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor....5f1a/1/hilite/

Quote:
978.20 (c) - Forward Pistol Grip
The proposed definition originally noticed to the public defined a forward pistol grip as “any protrusion in front of the trigger that is designed or intended to grasp and control the firearm.” As a result of public comment during the initial comment period (December 31, 1999 through February 28, 2000), the Department determined the term “any protrusion” appeared to lack clarity in that it could include many shooting accessories or parts of the firearm that may be used to grasp and control the firearm, but could not be considered forward pistol grips, such as sling swivels, bipods and monopods, palm rests, etc. The definition was therefore revised by replacing “any protrusion” with “a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp.” The Department believes that the concept of a “pistol style grasp” is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations. The revised definition: “forward pistol grip means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger” was then noticed to the public during the first 15-day comment period (May 10 through May 30, 2000). Although additional comments were received, no comments were received during the first 15-day comment period that warranted additional revisions to the definition.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-18-2010, 9:08 AM
Jwood562 Jwood562 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,179
iTrader: 64 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Somewhat disagree there. If you're talking about using the AFG in a way it wasn't intended (pistol grasp instead of MMG style grip), then I'd agree with you. However, based on the rulemaking precedent, a case against a person using a flashlight mount or inverted BUIS like you describe might be hard paddling for a DA to win. Reread these links. The P.C. was made very specific as to what was banned.

Pages 17-22 http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf

Full background:
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php

If it's not a grip to begin with, I can't see how charges would be filed, let alone stick.

yeah I meant that how the FG was designed to be used. But technique brught up a good point in his picture on how someone could "pistol" grip the AFG, even though it is not right and not a good shooting platform but it could be misconstrued as a FG.

NOw to clear up my point on people using BUIS or lets say a flash light as a cleaver grip or handstop. We all know what it is being used for (grip, handstop, etc...). I am just saying I would not see it too far fetched that it would bring up legal issues. NOw maybe the charges would not stick in the long run but why waste all the time and money incourt. The only reason I bring up the Laure BUIS is I have seen it done in person. na dwhen it is upside down on the front of your rail you can grasp it withat least two fingers and wrap your thumb around it. Now it that form some may call it a grip, it is no longer a BUIS...then what is it? that is what I am saying just for the sake of being devils advocate
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-18-2010, 10:58 AM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwood562 View Post
NOw to clear up my point on people using BUIS or lets say a flash light as a cleaver grip or handstop. We all know what it is being used for (grip, handstop, etc...). I am just saying I would not see it too far fetched that it would bring up legal issues. NOw maybe the charges would not stick in the long run but why waste all the time and money incourt. The only reason I bring up the Laure BUIS is I have seen it done in person. na dwhen it is upside down on the front of your rail you can grasp it withat least two fingers and wrap your thumb around it. Now it that form some may call it a grip, it is no longer a BUIS...then what is it? that is what I am saying just for the sake of being devils advocate
I agree that putting a BUIS down there might be hard to explain if charged as it really makes no sense. Flashlight mount or bipod mount, etc that is supposed to be down there is much less likely to have you hemming and hawing on the witness stand during cross examination. That's why the KAC handstop is perfect. It avoids the grip pitfalls, is a sling mount and is supposed to be mounted on the bottom forward rail (and fully falls within the exempt items discussed in the rulemaking comment documents).
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-18-2010, 11:04 AM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
My personal view is that using this on a featureless build is inviting trouble. I have the same opinion on using a forward MMG.
Which *this* are you describing? The AFG? Kydex batwing on forward grip or ??
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-18-2010, 1:55 PM
shark92651's Avatar
shark92651 shark92651 is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 5,364
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

Quote:
The Department believes that the concept of a “pistol style grasp” is generally understood by persons affected by the regulations.
Can someone please clarify what the intent of this language is if not to somehow defer to a "reasonableness" standard? My general understanding of what is a "pistol style grasp" is not possible with an AFG. To me, a pistol style grasp results in your fingers wrapping around to the same side of your hand where your thumb is while maintaining a firm grip on the device. This is not possible with an AFG - it was not designed to be held this way. The only way to get a true pistol style grasp around it is to have it resting on the top of your hand - not inside it. The little amount of material you gave to grab onto is a "V" shape and will easily slip out. A hand-stop allows a better, more firmer pistol style grasp than the AFG. If someone wanted to argue that the weird grasp required to constitute a "pistol style grasp" on the AFG could just as easily be applied to the MonsterMan grip, in my opinion.

Is it risky, perhaps, but I think it would be no harder to defend in court than a monsterman grip. This is all just my personal opinion though.
__________________

www.riflegear.com
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-18-2010, 5:59 PM
lawaia's Avatar
lawaia lawaia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside County
Posts: 2,037
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

I have been playing around with my AFG for the last 45 minutes or so. Prior to mounting it, I believed that it would function much better than the KAC handstop as a reference point and forward grip on my featureless build (setting aside the legal ramifications for the moment). But after mounting it and playing around with it, I honestly do not see a significant difference.

My wrist is just as comfortable with the Hand Stop, and I can get just as good of a grip to pull the rifle back into my shoulder. In fact, if I want to run my thumb on top of the top rail, the Hand Stop is better suited to do so.

So for me, the legality of the AFG on a featureless build is irrelevant. I'm sticking with my KAC Hand Stop.

Last edited by lawaia; 01-18-2010 at 6:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-08-2010, 9:39 PM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

A few more tidbits from the "comment period" documents.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf
Page 24 and 25 covers the Forward Pistol Grip. Specifically from page 25:
Quote:
978.20(c) Forward Pistol Grip

B3.08 The modified definition is still sufficiently vague to potentially cover bipods and/or monopods because they can provide a pistol style grasp.

The Department disagrees with the comment. The revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip. While the capacity to be grasped is a necessary criteria, it is not sufficient. Because the bipod and monopod are not grips, they do not fall within the definition of a forward pistol grip. The Department believes that reasonable people would not consider a bipod or monopod a grip.
So a "forward pistol grip" MUST be a grip. Thus a handstop, monopod, bipod cannot qualify precisely because they are NOT grips. The AFG *is* a grip and thus subject to the prohibition if it meets the criteria of allowing a pistol style grasp.

Quote:
B3.09 The definition exceeds the intent of the legislature because sling fittings provide a pistol style grasp.

The Department disagrees with the comment. The revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip. While the capacity to be grasped is a necessary criteria, it is not sufficient. Because sling fittings are not grips, they do not fall within the definition of a forward pistol grip. The Department believes that reasonable people would not consider a sling fitting a grip.
There goes the argument that one "might" attain a pistol style grasp on a KAC handstop.

Quote:
B3.10 The definition exceeds the intent of the legislature because ammunition magazines provide a pistol style grasp and could be interpreted to be included in the definition.

The Department's revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip. A magazine forward of the trigger that is also a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp would be subject to this definition. The revision is consistent with the legislative intent of the statute.
Spells it out pretty clearly. It MUST be a grip to qualify. Also specifically calls out a forward mag holder that functions like a forward grip (CAA/Israeli army has these) as qualifying as a forward pistol grip. So don't put one of those on a featureless rifle.
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:14 PM
MallNinja MallNinja is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 221
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I ain't no lawyer but an AFG ain't no pistol grip.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-09-2010, 1:07 AM
rt7's Avatar
rt7 rt7 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lake Elsinore
Posts: 218
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

What Shark said.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-09-2010, 7:35 AM
MasterYong's Avatar
MasterYong MasterYong is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Humboldt County California
Posts: 2,737
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
A few more tidbits from the "comment period" documents.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf
Page 24 and 25 covers the Forward Pistol Grip. Specifically from page 25:


So a "forward pistol grip" MUST be a grip. Thus a handstop, monopod, bipod cannot qualify precisely because they are NOT grips. The AFG *is* a grip and thus subject to the prohibition if it meets the criteria of allowing a pistol style grasp.


There goes the argument that one "might" attain a pistol style grasp on a KAC handstop.

Spells it out pretty clearly. It MUST be a grip to qualify. Also specifically calls out a forward mag holder that functions like a forward grip (CAA/Israeli army has these) as qualifying as a forward pistol grip. So don't put one of those on a featureless rifle.
OK now THAT'S interesting. I thought this had already been resolved as a no-go for featureless builds... that's an encouraging bit of info to dig up, Fate!

How do the legal eagles feel about Fate's info?

Anyone?
__________________
01001100 01100101 01100001 01110010 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110011 01110111 01101001 01101101 00100000 01001001 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100100 01101111 01110111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100001 01110010 01101001 01111010 01101111 01101110 01100001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01111001 00101110

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:00 AM
AMDG's Avatar
AMDG AMDG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 584
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

I find this the opposite of encouraging. The AFG is a "grip" (that's what the "G" stands for) and see the picture in the second post of this thread. One could easily conclude that its a FPG.

It may be that this all comes down to an epic failure by Magpul: using the word "grip" in the name and marketing of this item. Perhaps if they had called it an Angled Forward Hand Stop there would be no issue.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:04 AM
lawaia's Avatar
lawaia lawaia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside County
Posts: 2,037
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
It may be that this all comes down to an epic failure by Magpul: using the word "grip" in the name and marketing of this item. Perhaps if they had called it an Angled Forward Hand Stop there would be no issue.
I wouldn't say it was an "epic failure" on the part of Magpul. Our piss ant bull**** CA laws probably never even crossed their radars when developing this product. They have a whole free country (The United States) that is willing and able to buy the product regardless of what they name it.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:17 AM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MallNinja View Post
I ain't no lawyer but an AFG ain't no pistol grip.
You're right, it's not a pistol grip in the common understanding. However, based on the definitions in the CA Penal Code, it is a FORWARD pistol grip. And FPG's will turn a featureless rifle into an assault weapon in CA.

Matters not that the definition is illogical. It is the law.
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-09-2010, 10:22 AM
AMDG's Avatar
AMDG AMDG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 584
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawaia View Post
I wouldn't say it was an "epic failure" on the part of Magpul. Our piss ant bull**** CA laws probably never even crossed their radars when developing this product. They have a whole free country (The United States) that is willing and able to buy the product regardless of what they name it.
I agree, but its such a huge market, you would think they would pay attention to something like this at least enough not to unintentionally close the door to potential revenue.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:28 AM
lawaia's Avatar
lawaia lawaia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Riverside County
Posts: 2,037
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

They will still sell a crap load of these to BB users. It's only us smart fellers that shoot featureless that are out of luck.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-09-2010, 11:46 AM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OC/DC
Posts: 9,106
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Good point, lawaia. I'd bet that BB users outnumber featureless by at least 4:1 from various polls so they're not losing much business.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-18-2010, 12:06 PM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

I can't believe I missed this before. Another page from the comment period document:

Page 28, Attachment B
Quote:
978.20(c) Forward Pistol Grip
Comment:
B3.26 1 The revised regulation incorporates a new undefined term 'pistol style grasp'. There are five 'protrusions' commonly found on semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are designed to 'grasp' the firearm. However, none of them can be plausibly thought of as a forward pistol grip. They are: a forward hand guard; a protruding detachable magazine; a hand stop; a sling swivel and sling; and a bipod.


Response:
The Department agrees with the comment. The revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip, in addition to having the capacity to be grasped. Because the five protrusions identified in the comment are not grips, they would not meet the Department's definition of a forward pistol grip. The Department believes that reasonable people would not consider the items identified in the comment forward pistol grips.
Again, further proof the KAC handstop is good to go on a featureless build.
__________________
"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson
, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-18-2010, 2:59 PM
1911_Mitch 1911_Mitch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 557
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Great find (above)! and clears up the KAC handstop.

I do think the Magpul AFG is gray area on a featurless though because it is a 'grip', albeit not very functional at providing a pistol style grasp.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-18-2010, 3:21 PM
MrPlink's Avatar
MrPlink MrPlink is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Portland / East Bay
Posts: 12,537
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

A bi pod provides a better pistol like grip than an AFG! But it isn't designed to be used as such, nor is the AFG. I've been using one for a while now on my featureless AK, 75 round drum and all. Not that its proof positive, but the range I frequent the most has a lot of LEOs, and nobody has ever said a word to me.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 07-18-2010, 3:49 PM
Josh3239's Avatar
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 8,812
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

That would be true if grips weren't allowed. The issue isn't grips, the issue is a pistol style grip. Two very different things. A Monsterman grip is a grip, Mega's gator grip is a grip, potato grip is a grip however I don't believe any of these are a pistol style grip like an A2 grip for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I find this the opposite of encouraging. The AFG is a "grip" (that's what the "G" stands for) and see the picture in the second post of this thread. One could easily conclude that its a FPG.

It may be that this all comes down to an epic failure by Magpul: using the word "grip" in the name and marketing of this item. Perhaps if they had called it an Angled Forward Hand Stop there would be no issue.
__________________
Proud NRA Life Member As Of 2016


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." – Norman Thomas, American socialist
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-18-2010, 5:14 PM
1988 1988 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,508
iTrader: 201 / 100%
Default

The AFG is a grip, but it's not a pistol grip.

However, I would not put it on my featureless rifle, because I can grip it like a pistol grip, and I can also put my finger through the loop when I hold it.

That's just me. I can't even afford my ammo. How can I afford a lawyer ?

Last edited by 1988; 07-18-2010 at 9:19 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-18-2010, 7:38 PM
dieselpower's Avatar
dieselpower dieselpower is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ventura
Posts: 10,386
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Thank you Fate, i used to have the comments chart linked to my desktop, but I lost them.

Its fact, the magwel grip is a no-no on featureless as is a AFG
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-18-2010, 9:11 PM
1988 1988 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2,508
iTrader: 201 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
Thank you Fate, i used to have the comments chart linked to my desktop, but I lost them.

Its fact, the magwel grip is a no-no on featureless as is a AFG
I do have the magwell grip on my featureless rifle. It's not a pistol grip and you can't grip it like a pistol grip. It's just a piece of polymer that wraps around the magwell and it has finger grooves for traction.

Like it or not, ingenious marketing has made most of us to believe that we bought a grip. Without the magwell grip, I can still grip the magwell the same way.

Last edited by 1988; 07-18-2010 at 9:20 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07-19-2010, 8:11 AM
shark92651's Avatar
shark92651 shark92651 is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 5,364
iTrader: 30 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988 View Post
I do have the magwell grip on my featureless rifle. It's not a pistol grip and you can't grip it like a pistol grip. It's just a piece of polymer that wraps around the magwell and it has finger grooves for traction.

Like it or not, ingenious marketing has made most of us to believe that we bought a grip. Without the magwell grip, I can still grip the magwell the same way.
Yeah, sort of like how soft drink companies convinced us we need to spend $1 or more for a bottle of water - a product we used to get for free, or nearly free.
__________________

www.riflegear.com
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-19-2010, 9:45 AM
dieselpower's Avatar
dieselpower dieselpower is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ventura
Posts: 10,386
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988 View Post
I do have the magwell grip on my featureless rifle. It's not a pistol grip and you can't grip it like a pistol grip. It's just a piece of polymer that wraps around the magwell and it has finger grooves for traction.

Like it or not, ingenious marketing has made most of us to believe that we bought a grip. Without the magwell grip, I can still grip the magwell the same way.
Dude....read Fate's post
Quote:
Quote:
B3.10 The definition exceeds the intent of the legislature because ammunition magazines provide a pistol style grasp and could be interpreted to be included in the definition.

The Department's revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip. A magazine forward of the trigger that is also a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp would be subject to this definition. The revision is consistent with the legislative intent of the statute.

Spells it out pretty clearly. It MUST be a grip to qualify. Also specifically calls out a forward mag holder that functions like a forward grip (CAA/Israeli army has these) as qualifying as a forward pistol grip. So don't put one of those on a featureless rifle.
and the only protected devices as per .gov
Quote:
978.20(c) Forward Pistol Grip
Comment:
B3.26 1 The revised regulation incorporates a new undefined term 'pistol style grasp'. There are five 'protrusions' commonly found on semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are designed to 'grasp' the firearm. However, none of them can be plausibly thought of as a forward pistol grip. They are: a forward hand guard; a protruding detachable magazine; a hand stop; a sling swivel and sling; and a bipod.


Response:
The Department agrees with the comment. The revised definition specifies a forward pistol grip must be a grip, in addition to having the capacity to be grasped. Because the five protrusions identified in the comment are not grips, they would not meet the Department's definition of a forward pistol grip. The Department believes that reasonable people would not consider the items identified in the comment forward pistol grips.
You might want to re-think your configuration.

As I said, taping or wrapping the magwel to aid in grasp or protection is OK, since the magwel is NOT a grip. The installation of a GRIP on the magazine or the magwel is defined as a FORWARD GRIP by the AG.

also covering the SN# of the firearm is a violation of Federal law

Last edited by dieselpower; 07-19-2010 at 9:56 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-11-2014, 11:30 PM
username999 username999 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I can't believe I slogged through two pages of this ridiculous discussion. If people have to try to figure out the "lawfulness" of a grip, they are missing the real problem.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-12-2014, 12:19 AM
morthrane morthrane is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 640
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by username999 View Post
I can't believe I slogged through two pages of this ridiculous discussion. If people have to try to figure out the "lawfulness" of a grip, they are missing the real problem.
Feel free to volunteer your liberty and your wealth to be the first monkey shot into CADOJ space.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-12-2014, 4:23 AM
CFV CFV is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 671
iTrader: 29 / 100%
Default

The real problem is why are you digging up dead posts.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-12-2014, 12:32 PM
MrPlink's Avatar
MrPlink MrPlink is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Portland / East Bay
Posts: 12,537
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Look at some of the all stars on this thread that are MIA now!
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 05-12-2014, 2:35 PM
Chaos47's Avatar
Chaos47 Chaos47 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 6,382
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by username999 View Post
I can't believe I slogged through two pages of this ridiculous discussion. If people have to try to figure out the "lawfulness" of a grip, they are missing the real problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFV View Post
The real problem is why are you digging up dead posts.
Seriously! 2009! username999 don't bump stuff this old. It only confuses people that don't read the whole thread (or check post dates) before they post

__________________
The above is not legal advice. It is just something you read from some dude on the internet. It does not reflect the opinion of Calguns.net. If it seems rude it was probably meant to read sarcastically.

Marlin 795 MEGATHREAD Part Deuce
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 06-08-2014, 6:18 PM
Click Boom's Avatar
Click Boom Click Boom is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 6,713
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

The discussion of the law says "palm rests" are not subject to restrictions, just like bipods, sling swivels, etc. As per the quotes in post #42 in this thread.

The AFG is a palm rest, right,
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 06-08-2014, 6:23 PM
JWHuey's Avatar
JWHuey JWHuey is offline
Senior Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: I prefer blue waffles to oysters.
Posts: 2,128
iTrader: 44 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPlink View Post
Look at some of the all stars on this thread that are MIA now!
They're all doing time for using an AFG on a featureless build!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 06-08-2014, 9:15 PM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Unfortunately for us ClickBoom, Magpul has called it a grip and not a palm rest. So no, it's not a palm rest in CA's eyes.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 06-08-2014, 9:17 PM
Fate's Avatar
Fate Fate is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Proud Member of the Quitter Club. Moscow, ID
Posts: 9,108
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Nor is a palm rest one of the "five protrusions" mentioned in the legal doc.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 06-08-2014, 9:56 PM
demolition125 demolition125 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Is it just me, or is it absolutely crazy we are arguing whether a PIECE OF PLASTIC is going to potentially get us in trouble?
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 06-08-2014, 11:49 PM
Chaos47's Avatar
Chaos47 Chaos47 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inland Empire
Posts: 6,382
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by demolition125 View Post
Is it just me, or is it absolutely crazy we are arguing whether a PIECE OF PLASTIC is going to potentially get us in trouble?
No, its California; where almost everything has a sticker on it saying it could kill you..

What is crazy is that people keep bumping a thread from 2009.
__________________
The above is not legal advice. It is just something you read from some dude on the internet. It does not reflect the opinion of Calguns.net. If it seems rude it was probably meant to read sarcastically.

Marlin 795 MEGATHREAD Part Deuce

Last edited by Chaos47; 06-08-2014 at 11:55 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 06-09-2014, 12:40 PM
Iskra's Avatar
Iskra Iskra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 515
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

I have really big hands and the KAC handstop is useless. But the AFG, mounted backwards (despite that being called "crazy" earlier in this thread) is a great handstop. I don't "grip" around the "grip" portion of it at all, I just grip the heat shield and use the backwards AFG as a handstop. GTG on featureless, anyone willing to opine?
__________________
I don't shoot because I like guns, I shoot because I hate paper.

There's a mistaken impression that conservatives don't like the environment. We do, we love the environment. We just call it the outdoors and we go there to kill stuff.
-PJ O'Rourke
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 06-09-2014, 3:09 PM
mif_slim's Avatar
mif_slim mif_slim is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Fresh-Snow
Posts: 9,268
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

What else happened in 2009??
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 07-28-2014, 4:28 PM
Click Boom's Avatar
Click Boom Click Boom is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 6,713
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

So groupthink still says this is a no go?
__________________
Completely Free $10 to spend on targets:
https://shootingtargets7.com/store/?...BKd1lQMDUya009
New tiered pricing, save big on multiples. Free Ship on orders over $100. Sales.

Brand New Weaver V3 1-3x20 scope $149
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1#post18216039
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 4:19 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.