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  #1  
Old 12-29-2009, 7:10 AM
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Default Can a customer bring in a lock to use for their firearm purchase without a receipt?

The more I think about it, the more this law really is unenforceable. Let's look at the Penal Code.

Quote:
12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."

(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
Ok, so logically speaking, all dealers have to comply with (a) unless they want to be exempt from (a) by complying with (e). So if you don't want to include or accompany with a firearm a lock for a customer, you can get away with not providing one by having a customer bring his own and do all of the paperwork along with it. Note it doesn't say that a person can't bring their own lock in section (a). Section (a) makes no mention of where you can or cannot get the lock from. It just says one must be included or accompany the firearm.

So stay with me here. If a customer brought in their own lock, you could still use that to comply with section (a). A gun lock is still being provided. The only time you do not have to provide a lock is if you want to go through with section (e).

Now could the DOJ argue that "shall include or be accompanied by a [FSD]" prohibits a customer bringing in a gun lock? I don't see how. The firearm included or was accompanied by an FSD. The code states nothing in (a) where that lock should come from. The code only specifies if you are not going to include or accompany a firearm with an FSD, then you must follow (e).

What do you guys think? I would think during an audit the DOJ has nothing to stand on if you simply state an approved FSD was included or accompanied the firearm. Even if the customer brought one in, the firearm still includes or is being accompanied by an approved FSD.

I knew when I was doing my lock trade in program I pretty much had figured out a way to comply with a minimal amount of customer hassle. However reading this, it appears that really if the DOJ attempted to make this an issue, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which really isn't their fault, the legislators of this state continue to write worthless and unenforceable legislation.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2009, 7:57 AM
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Given the fractured language of (a), I think you are right. However, it is pretty clear what their intent is. I think the lock exchange idea is the best course.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2009, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
Given the fractured language of (a), I think you are right. However, it is pretty clear what their intent is. I think the lock exchange idea is the best course.
Except that the lock exchange is really a joke and just another way of complying with the ambiguous regulation. I really see no difference in making the case either way.

Is not the actual intent that the firearm leaves with an approved lock ? Either method would seem to meet the intent but a common sense approach is not always what the BOF is trying to enforce.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:46 AM
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If the person were to give you the lock in advance, then it seems like it would meet (a). Clearly, the lock exchange program is safer though. If the customer were to walk in, hand you the lock, walk away and then come back to pick up their firearm, it would seem that it would meet with the penal code. I understand why there is the requirement that the lock be purchased a short time before (so that one lock is not used for many firearms), but if the person gets a good deal on 500 locks, why should they be forced to buy even more locks?

How would anyone know if the lock came with the firearm, provided by the FFL or that the customer brought it in?

The "intent" is really not all that important since what the penal code says is what will get enforced. The BATF attorney says that their lock law means that a safe has to be provided by the FFL at the time of transfer and clearly that is not what the intent was with the law. He also says that the customer can not provide the lock or the safe, but that seems to be based on a slight misreading of the code section.

The exact details of how you do something can be important to keep you out of trouble.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:00 AM
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For those of you not aware of the lock exchange, have the customer bring in a lock. Lets say it is a DAC CL551. DO NOT USE THAT LOCK FOR THEIR TRANSACTION! Instead, you can just make sure their gun includes or is accompanied by another model lock like a Project Childsafe GL 710 NSSF. Then if another customer brings in a Project Childsafe GL 710 NSSF, you have a DAC CL551 sitting there that can go out with that customer and you take that customers GL 710 NSSF for another customer another day.
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Old 12-29-2009, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
For those of you not aware of the lock exchange, have the customer bring in a lock. Lets say it is a DAC CL551. DO NOT USE THAT LOCK FOR THEIR TRANSACTION! Instead, you can just make sure their gun includes or is accompanied by another model lock like a Project Childsafe GL 710 NSSF. Then if another customer brings in a Project Childsafe GL 710 NSSF, you have a DAC CL551 sitting there that can go out with that customer and you take that customers GL 710 NSSF for another customer another day.
Wes,

That does sound like the best way to run the exchange program. I still have a shopping bag full of the S.O. freebies but at some point, those will run out, if I don't get busy on the exchange program.
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  #7  
Old 07-11-2011, 12:19 PM
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I just want to do an update on this so this is a little more clear for the FFL FAQ Master Thread.

There is nothing that says you can't give locks to your customer as long as they are designed to be used on the firearm being used and they are an approved FSD.

So, I have received hundreds of free Project Childsafe locks from my local PD and a local CA DFG hunter safety instructor. I give them to everyone!!!

If a guy comes in for a PPT; I give them a lock. If they buy a gun from me and it doesn't have a lock; I give them a lock. Project Childsafe 107 China.

Now, a dealer specific question is where do you note this information at?

I write it in the DROS comments section. You can either type this in before you start the DROS or hand write it in after the DROS has been run. During my CA DOJ audit, Bob The Auditor recommended I do this.

Project Childsafe 107 provided [this is when I give them a lock]
DAC CL551 OEM [that stands for "original equipment manufacturer" and I do that when the lock came with the gun]

There is really no excuse to nickel and dime your customers on gun locks, but there is enough gray area here you can make up all sorts of silly company policies to justify them buying a lock, but it isn't required by law by any means.

Also a reminder that you can still use the safe affidavit for long guns and other firearms (someone correct me if I am wrong). However, all handguns must be provided with a lock by federal law. Also remember that you cannot sell or give away non-approved FSDs. So combining the safe affidavit with a lock really doesn't make any sense. Either the handgun comes with an approved FSD or it doesn't.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-11-2011 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
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Thanks for reading the law, it seems like most of the gun shops I have dealt with don't understand:

(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
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Old 07-11-2011, 1:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Spy View Post
Thanks for reading the law, it seems like most of the gun shops I have dealt with don't understand:

(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
You are still quoting 12088.1(e). I never reference that section since all of my firearms come with a lock. If a PPT gun comes with an approved FSD, then (e) does not apply and I don't need a receipt.

A customer will never need a receipt for a gun lock at my shop. Their gun will always come with a lock, whether I provide it or the manufacturer does.
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Old 07-11-2011, 1:27 PM
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Here we go again. More ranting from 10% about his crappy way of doing bussiness. Sure he gives out free locks. What he doesn't tell you is that he is going to start charging $50 for the keys, effective Feb. 30, 2012.
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Old 07-11-2011, 1:37 PM
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Something seems a little suspect about the timeliness of this necropost
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Old 07-11-2011, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock_this View Post
Something seems a little suspect about the timeliness of this necropost
Yeah, the creation of this thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=454280
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Old 07-11-2011, 4:16 PM
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as a customer, i've found it MUCH easier for me to simply buy a $5 lock from walmart, bring it in with the receipt, then return it later on. All the FFL's i've been to know how to work with that scenario and it saves me having to try to explain the law to the "gun law experts" behind the counter

doesn't matter what you know as a customer, you're stuck following the laws of the gun shop if you choose to buy from them.
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Old 07-11-2011, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Spy View Post
Thanks for reading the law, it seems like most of the gun shops I have dealt with don't understand:

(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
Unfortunately, you cannot just show a lock to the FFL to meet the requirement:

(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
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Old 07-11-2011, 4:31 PM
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What I always did (if I remembered) was bring a project childsafe or other lock for the seller in a PPT so he could give it to the FFL and it would "accompany" the gun. If I was selling I just included one. I never got any grief from a FFL for that. I don't see any LEGAL reason for an FFL to complain about the same thing for a HG sale, where the buyer gives the FFL the lock and it goes with the HG before the transfer/sale, however you know a lot of them want that extra $5-10 they will make from selling the lock.

That said, I agree with IrishPirate, it's sometimes much easier to "borrow" one from big 5 or walmart.
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Old 07-11-2011, 4:38 PM
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The funny thing about the project child safe locks is that they are stamped "not for sale". Basically by stamping them and telling FFLs to hand them out they said it's fine for FFLs to hand out locks.

What's wrong with me selling my FFL a lock for store credit then purchasing a lock when I buy the gun. I'd get a receipt, right?

If you have a chance call Hank Thompson. He gave me some interesting info regarding this subject that was verified by his agent.
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