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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:46 AM
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Default 6.8 rifles haven't seen much out there.

Who makes 6.8 uppers? I have seen stag but I am looking for something a little more on tge high quality side.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:49 AM
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LWRC has them and there at the top of the chain.
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:50 AM
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Dont waste your time. Get a Grendel
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  #4  
Old 12-24-2009, 11:10 AM
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I want to use it for hunting deer and
swine by tge way.
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  #5  
Old 12-24-2009, 1:00 PM
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Most major manufacturers have a 6.8. Take a look at Addax, AR15 Performance, Bison Armory, or Wilson. Whichever you decide on make sure it is, AT LEAST, SPC II chamber AND a minimum of 1/11 twist for the best performance. I would recommend AR15 Performance. Top notch equipment and not too bad on the price... especially the Hunters special (~$650 for a complete upper). The owner is one of the key players that help perfect the round as it is today (not the way Remington screwed it up).

The 6.8 is an excellent choice for a mid-range deer and pig round in a light and compact rifle. Especially the 85gr TSX... It has proven to be a fantastic Deer and Pig/Hog bullet. Even Bill & Joyce Wilson of Wilson Combat uses the 6.8 on deer (they like 110 gr. Nosler's and Sierra's).

http://www.68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10182

Personally, I have an AR Performance and couldn't be happier. Excellent equipment and top-notch customer service... and they're aren't too bad to talk to either.
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  #6  
Old 12-24-2009, 1:31 PM
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White Oak will make you an very good upper for a decent price.
all the best,
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  #7  
Old 12-24-2009, 1:51 PM
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RRA makes 6.8 SPC.
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Old 12-24-2009, 2:47 PM
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I have one being built by Bison Armory. I sent in everything but the barrel, and they are putting it all together for me. The barrel from them has the new chamber and twist rate, is made of stainless steel, and was all of $200. I can't wait for it to get back.
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Old 12-24-2009, 3:37 PM
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AR15 Performance is probably the Cadillac of 6.8 SPC upper builders. I had mine made with a Lothar 1:11.25 polygonal rifled barrel.

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  #10  
Old 12-24-2009, 3:41 PM
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Dont waste your time. Get a Grendel
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2009, 3:46 PM
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Grendel or you'll be sorrrry
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2009, 3:48 PM
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Grendel or you'll be sorrrry
Some of the first people making 6.8 uppers only went out of buissness last year. Cardinal armory and kotonics. I dont see it sticking around. sure the major companys make one but I think the grendel will out last the 6.8
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2009, 4:37 PM
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Why do people keep jumping in with what they think the OP should or should not have, instead of just answering the original question? Maybe the guy is doing his research and found that a 6.8 would do what he wants it to do and is merely looking for other equipment options...

You guys that think your "G" is better... are you getting any kick-back or royalties by swaying people over to your side of thinking? Does the ammo, firearms, sporting goods, etc. companies pay you money to get into "discussions" (sometimes heated) about what is the better equipment??? Would a 5# rifle in .300 Win. Magnum be better for bench shooting out to a 1000yds than a 15# rifle? Would a 50 DTC kill ground squirrels better than a 22-250 at 300 yards? I simply don't understand the mentality...

Do you guys think that maybe... just maybe... equipment is designed for a particular purpose and the end consumer must make up their own mind whether that particular tool fits their purpose better than another??? Would you want to go to a car dealer to buy a car and the salesman is trying to convince you to buy a truck? If not than why jump into an OP's thread asking for info on a particular piece of equipment and suggest they are an idiot for even asking? Let the guy get his answers to what he is looking for and don't post if you can't contribute!

My apologies to the OP and others interested in the thread for the rant...
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2009, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sky_DiveR View Post
Why do people keep jumping in with what they think the OP should or should not have, instead of just answering the original question? Maybe the guy is doing his research and found that a 6.8 would do what he wants it to do and is merely looking for other equipment options...

You guys that think your "G" is better... are you getting any kick-back or royalties by swaying people over to your side of thinking? Does the ammo, firearms, sporting goods, etc. companies pay you money to get into "discussions" (sometimes heated) about what is the better equipment??? Would a 5# rifle in .300 Win. Magnum be better for bench shooting out to a 1000yds than a 15# rifle? Would a 50 DTC kill ground squirrels better than a 22-250 at 300 yards? I simply don't understand the mentality...

Do you guys think that maybe... just maybe... equipment is designed for a particular purpose and the end consumer must make up their own mind whether that particular tool fits their purpose better than another??? Would you want to go to a car dealer to buy a car and the salesman is trying to convince you to buy a truck? If not than why jump into an OP's thread asking for info on a particular piece of equipment and suggest they are an idiot for even asking? Let the guy get his answers to what he is looking for and don't post if you can't contribute!

My apologies to the OP and others interested in the thread for the rant...
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2009, 5:15 PM
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Nah, the rant was warranted. The 6.5 crowd needs to chill out. They are as bad as the 10mm guys were when .40 S&W took off. I looked at both, and would have liked to go with the 6.5 because I already reload half a dozen 6.5mm cartridges. But the 6.8 does what I am looking for, with less fuss, less powder, and at a lower cost. It is a ballistic clone of .257 Roberts. If I need something with more power than the 6.8, I would go with a full-sized rifle cartridge in a different platform. Not try to squeeze more out of an AR platform to get a marginal substitute. People said that .40 S&W wouldn't last either, and look how that turned out. And truthfully, the OP asked for information on the 6.8, not a lecture on how much better 6.5 is.

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  #16  
Old 12-24-2009, 8:34 PM
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Why? the 6.8 tanked. If you get an upper stockpile ammo and reloading components because this well designed cartridge is the .41 magnum of the 21st century...

YOu wanna hunt deer?
Get a 308 or 243 or 77 grain 5.56 bullets in a regular AR and get REAL close.
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2009, 8:50 PM
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There are other mfgs. who have the 6.8 in stock: MSTN, Rainer, LWRCi and etc. They are not hard to find. Plus the ammo is available from SSA.
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2009, 9:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky_DiveR View Post
Why do people keep jumping in with what they think the OP should or should not have, instead of just answering the original question? Maybe the guy is doing his research and found that a 6.8 would do what he wants it to do and is merely looking for other equipment options...

You guys that think your "G" is better... are you getting any kick-back or royalties by swaying people over to your side of thinking? Does the ammo, firearms, sporting goods, etc. companies pay you money to get into "discussions" (sometimes heated) about what is the better equipment??? Would a 5# rifle in .300 Win. Magnum be better for bench shooting out to a 1000yds than a 15# rifle? Would a 50 DTC kill ground squirrels better than a 22-250 at 300 yards? I simply don't understand the mentality...

Do you guys think that maybe... just maybe... equipment is designed for a particular purpose and the end consumer must make up their own mind whether that particular tool fits their purpose better than another??? Would you want to go to a car dealer to buy a car and the salesman is trying to convince you to buy a truck? If not than why jump into an OP's thread asking for info on a particular piece of equipment and suggest they are an idiot for even asking? Let the guy get his answers to what he is looking for and don't post if you can't contribute!

My apologies to the OP and others interested in the thread for the rant...
-- because friends don't let friends drive drunk, and friends don't let friends buy guns chambered in 356TS&W, either. We are free to voice our opinion if the intended purchase is not wise for a multitude of reasons. This could end up being the guy posting "help! I can't find 6.8 ammo" next year, and we could have saved him the trouble.

BTW, I only say this because the market for ammo and guns is volatile right now, and wrong decisions could end up costing us dearly if the future holds more nasty surprises. Besides, I said he could buy an 6.8 SPC upper if he was going to stockpile ammo and reloading components.
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  #19  
Old 12-24-2009, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416stroker View Post
Some of the first people making 6.8 uppers only went out of buissness last year. Cardinal armory and kotonics. I dont see it sticking around. sure the major companys make one but I think the grendel will out last the 6.8
Um...

Kotonics changed their name to Cardinal Armory - that's the same company.
Tim was a small businessman, dedicated to the 6.8 and to high quality at reasonable price - read that as value.

He was pushing the envelope of the 6.8 in the early days and very responsive to customer/user input.

He got a bad batch of barrels back from the chromer and did not have the ability to absolutely determine which were over chromed and which weren't.
Therefore he couldn't absolutely guarantee the barrels could shoot the hot SSA Tactical loads. A criteria Tim set for himself. All at a time when major manufacturers, like RRA were still using the SAAMI spec chambers with 1/10 twist barrels.
The chromer said it was his problem, and, as a struggling small businessman, he didn't have the funds to change their minds through the courts. That and the economy tanking, meant he didn't have the capital to continue.

So he had to close up shop and get a real job.
The "state of the 6.8" in no way forced him to close. In fact many of us are extremely sorry to see him go. I have two of his barrels and they are both very solid very accurate shooters.


Meanwhile; RRA changed their spec to SPCII, Stag changed to the SPCII and 1/11 twist barrels and brought out a new longer barrelled "hunter" model, Bison Armory picked up where Cardinal Armory left off and is offering barrels in the same profiles as Tim did in stainless and bargain prices, AR Performance continues to push the edge with good value and extreme performance models and upgraded bolts, Wilson combat has come out with a 6.8 rifle, etc., etc.

In the past 3 years the 6.8 has taken off quite a bit.

More manufacturers are offering rifles and uppers in 6.8, and at the improved SPCII or DMR spec chambers with 1/11 or 1/12 twist barrels.

Many police agencies are adopting 6.8 and Hornady has made their loads hotter in response to police demand, now that many of the older 1/9.5 and SAAMI chamber rifles are replaced. Special Forces units are also using it and they can't get enough of the weapons or ammo to satisfy their appetite.

SSA has increased the number of loadings in 6.8 and continues to push the envelope for the round. Many ammunition manufacturers now load 6.8.

The ammunition AND weapons continue to evolve and improve.

The 6.8 is far from waning or dying from either the AR enthusiast or industry perspectives. The 6.8 is here to stay.

http://www.68forums.com/forums/index.php

Last edited by Desert_AIP; 12-24-2009 at 9:40 PM..
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  #20  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
Why? the 6.8 tanked. If you get an upper stockpile ammo and reloading components because this well designed cartridge is the .41 magnum of the 21st century...
The ideal sidearm for a 6.8 rifle would be a .45GAP.......

I would second the notion for avoiding the 6.8, unless you really want to pay twice the cost for ammunition.
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  #21  
Old 12-25-2009, 12:21 AM
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OP, please dont listen to the people who dont know what they are talking about. Check out AR-15 Performance. Those guys have great prices for AWESOME uppers. Super accurate and can handle super hot loads.

One valid point brought up by the 6.8 haters: reload. I would say the same for the Grendel too. And pretty much any other caliber.
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  #22  
Old 12-25-2009, 12:36 AM
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+1 for AR Performance!

I have one of the Xtreme uppers and absolutely love it. Harrison also modified my White Oak 6.8 chamber (was originally SAMMI spec) to handle hotter, compressed loads. That thing's a tack driver!

Don't mind the 6.5 crowd, typical behavior

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  #23  
Old 12-25-2009, 12:37 AM
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Addax...
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  #24  
Old 12-25-2009, 1:05 AM
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I agree go with the 6.8 In the beginning the 6.8 got a bad rap. It had the 10 twist and SAMMI barrel (underpowered) It shouldve been 11 twist and specII chamber to start with. But with time and R&D, that issue was adressed and the manufacturers are building them to proper specs. Mine are equiped with the old 10 ten twist barrels BUT I had my chambers reamed to the SPECII specification(addax did the chamber reaming upgrade). So I can shoot tactical rounds and I didnt have to replace them. 6.8 ammo prices has come down and is much more available. its still not at big5 or bass pro shops but its getting there. also with the right ammo you can hunt with it.

Last edited by stag6.8; 12-25-2009 at 1:25 AM..
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  #25  
Old 12-25-2009, 2:55 AM
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I have a LWRC in 6.8 and its the bees knees. And ammo can be had if you are diligent enough. You can even get new loads from miwall for 50 cents a round now which is way cheaper than it was in the past.
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Old 12-25-2009, 2:58 AM
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Go 6.8 if you want to limit yourself to medium range.

For hunting within 200 yard range, I'm happy with my VZ.58 and Hornady V-Max. Otherwise, I'd reach for 6.5 Grendel.
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky_DiveR View Post
You guys that think your "G" is better... are you getting any kick-back or royalties by swaying people over to your side of thinking? Does the ammo, firearms, sporting goods, etc. companies pay you money to get into "discussions" (sometimes heated) about what is the better equipment???
It's simple they have to trash the 6.8 in hope of saving their investment in a 6.5 from becoming a white elephant. That and just plain rudeness.
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  #28  
Old 12-25-2009, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sholling View Post
It's simple they have to trash the 6.8 in hope of saving their investment in a 6.5 from becoming a white elephant. That and just plain rudeness.
Very well put. Never could understand why the G crowd can't stay off the soap box.
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Old 12-25-2009, 2:36 PM
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I have a 6.8SPC with specII chamber, 11.25twist, and gas piston made by POF.
Absolutely love it.
I caught flack as well from the 'G' crowd but decided that I was gonna get what I wanted, and suited my needs regardless of those that would try to sway my opinion one way or the other.
It's one of my favorite rifles to shoot.
Buy what you decide is best for your needs.
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Old 12-25-2009, 3:26 PM
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I have a 6.8SPC with specII chamber, 11.25twist, and gas piston made by POF.
Absolutely love it.
I caught flack as well from the 'G' crowd but decided that I was gonna get what I wanted, and suited my needs regardless of those that would try to sway my opinion one way or the other.
It's one of my favorite rifles to shoot.
Buy what you decide is best for your needs.
You love it? WTF?

According to the G prophets above you should be regretting it and all of the time you wasted on it.

Damn, now I'm confused. Hehe. Not really.
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Old 12-25-2009, 3:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblack583 View Post
You love it? WTF?

According to the G prophets above you should be regretting it and all of the time you wasted on it.

Damn, now I'm confused. Hehe. Not really.
Yep, Love it.



At 150 yards>>>

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Old 12-25-2009, 4:13 PM
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My next rifle will also be 6.8 SPC.
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  #33  
Old 12-25-2009, 8:49 PM
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Like I said, it is the 10mm crowd all over again. As much as I like 10mm, and can admire the ballistics of the 6.5, both crowds doth protest too much. If I need more than the 6.8, I am bringing another gun. And you can bet that it won't be a stepped up intermediate cartridge. It will be something big enough to drop whatever I am hunting with a reasonable margine of extra power tossed in. If that means a .308 class round, that ain't a problem. If I need something bigger, I'll go with .35 Whelen. And if that ain't big enough, I'm staying home. I sure as heck ain't going to drop that margine of extra power just so that I can take an AR. I only get out to hunt larger critters once or twice every few years. I am NOT going to waste that oppertunity trying to pound a square peg into a round hole just to say how great that square peg is.

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  #34  
Old 12-26-2009, 1:31 AM
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We have been building piston driven 6.8 uppers for over a year, and we are now expanding our 6.8 offerings to include DI upper builds.

We currently have an 18" Side Charging Version available: Addax Tactical Side Charging 6.8 18" SPR Upper

We will be releasing some 16" Mid-Length DI uppers using Mil-Spec receivers, and DD Rails very soon.

I really like both rounds (6.8 and 6.5), but my personal preference is 6.8.

Chris
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  #35  
Old 12-26-2009, 11:10 AM
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Just received my 6.8 upper from AR 15 Performance. Top notch customer service and their product looks amazing.

Lots of good info on their website and also check out the 6.8 Forums.

I won't get on the soapbox about this or that rifle cal, but I decided on the 6.8 after 12 years of 5.56 experience, including combat involving CQB and mid to low range engagements (500 yds or less). It's all about your individual needs.
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  #36  
Old 12-27-2009, 11:58 AM
TZL TZL is offline
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6.5G ppl...seriously.....anytime someone mentions 6.8 SPC...the 6.5G ppl have to crap all over it...without fail

I have two 6.8spc and used to own a AA 6.5G.....yes i'll contend that with a 18" barrel, 6.5G has superior ballistics and long range potential. For my purposes, if i'm shooting distance, i'll take out a .308 or something else.... However see any 6.5G in military service yet?

One thing, I can usually walk into many gun shops and find 6.8spc ammo, might not always be the best, but many places will have Remington, Hornady, or SSA in stock....how often have you seen 6.5G in stock in your local gun shop?

6.8 AR uppers are easy to find, Barrett, LMT, LWRC, Stag, RRA, Addax, POF, Bushmaster, DPMS.....6.5G less so, but still plenty of custom choices from AA, Addax etc

However what other guns can you get in 6.8spc? mini-14, R700, Browning a-bolt, Thomson Contender, Robarm XCR, Remington ACR (someday),

Last edited by TZL; 12-27-2009 at 12:07 PM..
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  #37  
Old 12-27-2009, 12:36 PM
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k1dude k1dude is offline
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Originally Posted by TZL View Post
6.5G ppl...seriously.....anytime someone mentions 6.8 SPC...the 6.5G ppl have to crap all over it...without fail

I have two 6.8spc and used to own a AA 6.5G.....yes i'll contend that with a 18" barrel, 6.5G has superior ballistics and long range potential. For my purposes, if i'm shooting distance, i'll take out a .308 or something else.... However see any 6.5G in military service yet?

One thing, I can usually walk into many gun shops and find 6.8spc ammo, might not always be the best, but many places will have Remington, Hornady, or SSA in stock....how often have you seen 6.5G in stock in your local gun shop?
It goes both ways. In 6.8 threads the 6.5 people crash it, and in 6.5 threads the 6.8 people crash it. No fanclub is worse than the other. Both cartridges are fine cartridges. Both are fairly recent with new loads being created all the time. I don't think there's a clear winner yet. You might find 6.8 in stores, but is it because no one is buying it and the 6.5 is selling like hotcakes and is always out of stock? Or is it because the 6.8 has more demand and therefore more supply? No one knows the answers yet and anecdotal evidence can be viewed different ways.

The 6.5 was obviously superior to the 6.8 until the new 6.8 SPC II loads came out. Now it's sort of a wash unless you're talking long range. Grendel supporters like to point out the 6.5 does everything the 6.8 does and more. There's more than a little bit of truth to the claim. But if you don't need to reach out more than 300 yards, you don't care. The rainbow trajectory of the 6.8 downrange is meaningless in CQB or hunting hogs in thick brush.

I think a major hurdle holding the 6.5 back is Bill Alexander's stranglehold on the cartridge versus the open 6.8 SPC. At the same time, it allows Bill total quality control over development of the load and weapons. Sony may have lost the Betamax/VHS war, but they won the Blue-Ray/HD-DVD war. Who knows which tact will win over the long haul? I tend to favor the open development strategy. That's why PC's outnumber Mac's 10 to 1. But no one can argue that Apple makes incredible machines.

And for all we know, another fine cartridge like the 6.5 MPC might wind up kicking butt on both the Grendel and the SPC. It's a crap shoot at this point in time. The good thing is at least development is taking place in an attempt to improve the ballistic shortcomings of the 5.56 x 45.

Personally I'm on the sidelines watching the developments closely. Right now I'm favoring the Grendel, but that might change tomorrow for the SPC II or even the MPC based on new data or other developments. I've decided to withhold pulling the trigger on any of the cartridges until the dust has settled more, or an awesome deal pops up in one of the calibers for a rifle or complete upper. I don't want to be in the position of owning something that might be obsolete in a year or two. Think of all the poor suckers that bought SPC barrels than now need SPC II barrels to replace them.

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  #38  
Old 12-27-2009, 3:18 PM
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Jpach Jpach is offline
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
It goes both ways. In 6.8 threads the 6.5 people crash it, and in 6.5 threads the 6.8 people crash it. No fanclub is worse than the other. Both cartridges are fine cartridges. Both are fairly recent with new loads being created all the time. I don't think there's a clear winner yet. You might find 6.8 in stores, but is it because no one is buying it and the 6.5 is selling like hotcakes and is always out of stock? Or is it because the 6.8 has more demand and therefore more supply? No one knows the answers yet and anecdotal evidence can be viewed different ways.

The 6.5 was obviously superior to the 6.8 until the new 6.8 SPC II loads came out. Now it's sort of a wash unless you're talking long range. Grendel supporters like to point out the 6.5 does everything the 6.8 does and more. There's more than a little bit of truth to the claim. But if you don't need to reach out more than 300 yards, you don't care. The rainbow trajectory of the 6.8 downrange is meaningless in CQB or hunting hogs in thick brush.

I think a major hurdle holding the 6.5 back is Bill Alexander's stranglehold on the cartridge versus the open 6.8 SPC. At the same time, it allows Bill total quality control over development of the load and weapons. Sony may have lost the Betamax/VHS war, but they won the Blue-Ray/HD-DVD war. Who knows which tact will win over the long haul? I tend to favor the open development strategy. That's why PC's outnumber Mac's 10 to 1. But no one can argue that Apple makes incredible machines.

And for all we know, another fine cartridge like the 6.5 MPC might wind up kicking butt on both the Grendel and the SPC. It's a crap shoot at this point in time. The good thing is at least development is taking place in an attempt to improve the ballistic shortcomings of the 5.56 x 45.

Personally I'm on the sidelines watching the developments closely. Right now I'm favoring the Grendel, but that might change tomorrow for the SPC II or even the MPC based on new data or other developments. I've decided to withhold pulling the trigger on any of the cartridges until the dust has settled more, or an awesome deal pops up in one of the calibers for a rifle or complete upper. I don't want to be in the position of owning something that might be obsolete in a year or two. Think of all the poor suckers that bought SPC barrels than now need SPC II barrels to replace them.

Well said sir, well said. I was all jacked about the 6.5 G until I found out about the new and improvING SPC II. The Grendel pretty much only wins with longer barrels, even if you compare the 6.5 max handloads to the super hot (and increasingly hotter as time goes on) yet safe SPC II handloads. It really is amazing how hot they are safely pushing this round.

On that note, talk about the 6.5 MPC is giving me a semi and Ill google it right now so I gain more knowledge and more wood.
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Old 12-27-2009, 7:27 PM
Desert_AIP Desert_AIP is offline
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I think a major hurdle holding the 6.5 back is Bill Alexander's stranglehold on the cartridge versus the open 6.8 SPC.
I often compare it to PC vs. Mac
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Old 03-01-2010, 7:31 AM
fegves2id fegves2id is offline
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It goes both ways. In 6.8 threads the 6.5 people crash it, and in 6.5 threads the 6.8 people crash it. No fanclub is worse than the other. Both cartridges are fine cartridges. Both are fairly recent with new loads being created all the time. I don't think there's a clear winner yet. You might find 6.8 in stores, but is it because no one is buying it and the 6.5 is selling like hotcakes and is always out of stock? Or is it because the 6.8 has more demand and therefore more supply? No one knows the answers yet and anecdotal evidence can be viewed different ways.

The 6.5 was obviously superior to the 6.8 until the new 6.8 SPC II loads came out. Now it's sort of a wash unless you're talking long range. Grendel supporters like to point out the 6.5 does everything the 6.8 does and more. There's more than a little bit of truth to the claim. But if you don't need to reach out more than 300 yards, you don't care. The rainbow trajectory of the 6.8 downrange is meaningless in CQB or hunting hogs in thick brush.

I think a major hurdle holding the 6.5 back is Bill Alexander's stranglehold on the cartridge versus the open 6.8 SPC. At the same time, it allows Bill total quality control over development of the load and weapons. Sony may have lost the Betamax/VHS war, but they won the Blue-Ray/HD-DVD war. Who knows which tact will win over the long haul? I tend to favor the open development strategy. That's why PC's outnumber Mac's 10 to 1. But no one can argue that Apple makes incredible machines.

And for all we know, another fine cartridge like the 6.5 MPC might wind up kicking butt on both the Grendel and the SPC. It's a crap shoot at this point in time. The good thing is at least development is taking place in an attempt to improve the ballistic shortcomings of the 5.56 x 45.

Personally I'm on the sidelines watching the developments closely. Right now I'm favoring the Grendel, but that might change tomorrow for the SPC II or even the MPC based on new data or other developments. I've decided to withhold pulling the trigger on any of the cartridges until the dust has settled more, or an awesome deal pops up in one of the calibers for a rifle or complete upper. I don't want to be in the position of owning something that might be obsolete in a year or two. Think of all the poor suckers that bought SPC barrels than now need SPC II barrels to replace them.


My thought EXACTLY.
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