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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

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  #1  
Old 06-11-2016, 6:06 PM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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Default IMI ammo problem .....

SAA rifle kit, 556 nato chamber.......IMI ammo , IMI headstamp ,15 at 6 o clock and 2 at 9 o clock and 5 at 3 o clock......


Assembled a SAA kit for my brother...upper came assembled, it was only the lower that I assembled.


He took it to the range and had a few problems with it, first it fired 2 rounds on the pull and 2 on release.......on site smith saw no problems in assembly or upon visual inspecting. I installed a new complete trigger kit for him and it fixed the problem.

He went back to the range and it worked fine, fired approx 100 round total from both trips.

He brought the rifle over for a good cleanig and I noticed the free float upper barrel nut was loose.......fixed that and cleaned up the rifle.

He gives me his bag of saved brass for me to reload as he does not reload.

I start to inspect the brass and I see missing primers, flattened primers, black marks around the primers, primer craters etc.......after resizing some of the brass it would not drop in the wilson gauge all the way due to the head on the brass.

Primers are crimped on this ammo, almost none of them required removing the crimp and out of the 30 I primed, the primers felt super easy to install.

I started to really look at the brass and do some checking, I now can see extractor marks and slight deformation of the extractor ring on the case heads.

I now believe the rifle might have a too large of a headspace issue or the ammo is way overcharged.....possibly a chamber issue on the rifle.

10 to 20 of the cases looked fine, correct primer strikes and it had not blown the red sealant out from around the primer, but even those had very loose primer pockets and required no to minimal crimp removal, the crimp ring is very visable so they were crimped.


I have fired this IMI ammo, not the same batch in my rifle and saw none of this and IMI has a good reputation.

I called SAA and they offered to send a new trigger with prepaid return postage, they seemed concerned with the 2 round burst on pull and release, they seem not concerned at all with the loose barrel nut and even stated they only tighten them hand tight, said I could use some loctite, but they do not. I thought there was a torque spec for barrel nuts, not just hand tight. They made no comment about the chamber questions or the blown primer issues, not even a inquiry about what ammo 223 or 556 or even about what brand.


I wonder if the loose barrel nut caused a headspace issue or if the ammo is overloaded or there is a chamber issue.

I am not sure I want to fire any of that ammo in any rifle to find out and I really do not want to fire any ammo in his rifle either as I value my fingers and life..........not sure what to do at this point.

I will also be contacting SGammo to warn them of a possible problem with this ammo and see if they have heard any more complaints about it.........as a heads up to them untill we figure out what the problem is as it might save someones fingers or eyes.


Without more testig it is hard to say exactly what the problem is, but I fear doing any testing......I do not want to cry wolf and send the rifle back to SAA if it is the ammo and I do not want to send the Ammo back to SGammo if it is the rifle.

I also do not want to buy headspace gauges etc etc to find out if it is SAA`s rifle mistakes......I purchased a fully assembled upper from them because I do not have the tools to properly do that or enuff experiance to be comfortable doing it.

I am stuck......the safest option is send it all back to everyone, but as a business owner that also seems unfair to to one or both of them, but I want to retain my fingers and sight.

If I already had a headspace gauge I could eliminate that, which would leave chamber or ammo.......

I hate to spend money on tools and never find the problem and I hate to spend money on a gunsmith to figure out SAA`s problem or both only to find it is a ammo problem.

So I am stuck........any advice?

I know it is a giant wall of text/saga......sorry.

Last edited by Unretarded; 06-15-2016 at 8:14 PM..
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2016, 7:10 PM
jericho89 jericho89 is offline
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I suggest that you get a hold of a set of head gauges to check head space, or get the rifle to a competent smith to have it checked. It would not cost that much to have a smith check it. If the chamber is out of spec send it back, If the chamber specs out right then fire some known ammo in the rifle and check the brass. If the known ammo looks fine then send the imi ammo back.

As for the barrel nut there is a torque spec, most require 35-50 ft lbs.

As for the loose barrel nut changing head space, I would think not. The headspace on an ar is in the barrel. And since the bolt locks into the barrel a loose barrel would not change that headspace. It would effect accuracy and the possibility of the bolt not locking if the barrel is too loose.

If the upper is bad I would also send a copy of the smiths bill to them and as for reimbursement.

Last edited by jericho89; 06-11-2016 at 7:13 PM..
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2016, 7:52 PM
bbguns44 bbguns44 is offline
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You don't have access to another Ar15 ? Just go shoot some of the IMI with another gun & see how it runs. At worst just go to the range & ask if someone will let you shoot a mag or 2 worth of IMI ammo through their gun.
Preferably a hot blonde.
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  #4  
Old 06-11-2016, 9:56 PM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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I'd say 1:100,000 chance that it's the IMI factory ammo.
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  #5  
Old 06-12-2016, 10:35 AM
MarkInFolsom MarkInFolsom is offline
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Try a different brand of ammo.
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  #6  
Old 06-12-2016, 2:46 PM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
I'd say 1:100,000 chance that it's the IMI factory ammo.

Our thoughts too, going to shoot some in my BCM rifle just to be sure.

Then we also decided to send the SAA back, they can blow their fingers off or spend the time and money to figure it out........if it is not the ammo, it is the rifle.

Their lack of concern over anything but the malfunctioning trigger was the deciding factor, they showed a lack of concern, person in customer service anyway,that the barrel nut came loose, stated they just hand tighten a part that needs to be torqued to a certain spec and the comment about the overpressure signs of " does the gun cycle, thats the important part anyway"....sealed the return in my mind.


Picked up a nice PSA kit, which should have no problems, bought it local so if there is, I am sure we will get service.


When a customer states the rifle is showing dangerous over pressure signs, with quality ammo,the next and only valid reply is do not shoot the rifle send it back. Not " Does the gun cycle, that is the important part.


I understand all rifle companies big or small can have problems and they might make very quality rifles, it looked and felt like quality, but I do not feel like possible injury to figure out the problem and got the impression from the person on the phone he did not care about the safety issue, but seemed concerned over a trigger that fired 2 rounds on the pull and 2 rounds on release......wonder why........atf comes to mind as a possible reason for concern over the trigger. We will see how they respond and handle it from here on out and I will update the thread with the outcome.

I assume they will accept the return or offer exchange, either is fine....but we will see.

Last edited by Unretarded; 06-12-2016 at 2:55 PM..
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  #7  
Old 06-13-2016, 10:29 AM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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Called today and once I expressed a concern over safety they immediatly transfered me to their gun tech.......he was more than nice, informed me, which I did not know it had a lifetime warranty. He asked all the right questions, showed concern and assured me I could send it back no problem.

He did bring up a valid point, which was to make sure the chamber/throat area was really scrubbed out as he had seen a few come back with issues due to not getting out the antirust coating.

We did clean it, but not a super scrub like a filthy weapon gets, so I will clean it super super good in the chamber throat area and see what happens........

Like a lot of rifle issues, this might be end user problems, rather than rifle problems.......


I feel much more confident in the company and rifle than my first impression with customer service......I got off the phone feelig like they had a real concern for my issue and pride in their products and were willing to do what it takes to correct the issue.
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  #8  
Old 06-13-2016, 10:44 AM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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Default Hambam105 Miss-Spoke!

Not Not Not.

I don't think it's the ammo, re-peet-ta, I do not think your malfunction issues are not due to factory IMI ammo.

My apologies.
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  #9  
Old 06-15-2016, 8:14 PM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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In a shocking development....... IT WAS THE AMMO.......

Fired the same batch in a PSA upper and showed overpressure signs, fired the same ammo in a BCM and it showed the same overpressure signs.


This ammo batch is soo hot it flattens primers, leaks gas around the primers and blows primers out.....making the brass non-reloadable when fired from all 3 guns.

His SAA upper and all guns fired the lake city fine, the x-tac fine and all of my handloads fine.

It is just one super smokin hot batch of IMI......

The very very odd thing, is his batch of 1200 has the same lot number as mine......the lot numbers look in different sized script, but the numbers are the same. My batch of 1200 fires fine in all 3 guns and is fine to reload.
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2016, 8:26 PM
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Rorge Retson Rorge Retson is offline
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Kindly share batch number data with the rest of us CGers so we can check our own IMI.
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Old 06-15-2016, 9:17 PM
Unretarded Unretarded is offline
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LOT: 00212/G

Mine which is fine has the same lot number, only in dark bold ink, his script seems to be smaller and in lighter ink.

This is the brown box stuff that comes in the 1200 round lots from SGammo
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2016, 9:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unretarded View Post
LOT: 00212/G

Mine which is fine has the same lot number, only in dark bold ink, his script seems to be smaller and in lighter ink.

This is the brown box stuff that comes in the 1200 round lots from SGammo
Thanks. May be a good idea to tell Sam about it also.
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Old 06-15-2016, 9:40 PM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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That is a 1st I've heard of IMI .223 shztsing the bed.

I wonder if it's real IMI or some dirtbag 3rd world company making a case head stamp that looks like IMI. None the less, if it is real IMI to be the problem then it is what it is.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:02 PM
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OK, this thread has my interest. I just built up another stripped lower and running a recently purchased SAA 18" 5.56 HBAR barreled upper. So far everything is running fine. I also have about 900 rounds left from a 1200 round case of IMI 5.56 M855 62 grn green tip, purchased from SGAmmo. I have shot the IMI in my other AR's but not in the SAA upper. Everything seems OK with the IMI. I have been saving all my 5.56 and 223 brass but I have not sorted the brass out so I dont know if the IMI brass is tweaked or not.

My lot # is 00244/F. I will keep a eye in the IMI brass...
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2016, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
That is a 1st I've heard of IMI .223 shztsing the bed.

I wonder if it's real IMI or some dirtbag 3rd world company making a case head stamp that looks like IMI. None the less, if it is real IMI to be the problem then it is what it is.
My brother never noticed or cared.......had I not made him save his brass, no one would have ever known.

I know IMI is the hottest 556 almost available.....but this batch seems to be a few percent higher than normal. I shot 30 rounds in my rifle to determine if it was his rifle or the ammo and it ran fine, only upon inspection of the brass was it known it was the ammo.

Not every single round did it.......approx 70% had gas leakage around the primer, less than 10% were bad enuff the primers would fall out and approx 20 percent just flattened the primer some, but the primer sealant looked fine, no gas leakage.

It held true to approx this percentage in each rifle and we fired several hundred rounds with no problems other than it makes the brass non reloadable and giant hassel to sort out the possible 20% that might be reloadable.

I will call SGammo and let them know.........not sure how much he has left, he shot up 150 ish first trip, or at least that is the amount he saved for me.

I believe we/ he shot up 300 or 400 today..........I only shot 30 or 40 thru my BCM rifle to get a good idea of what it was doing.........30 or 40 thru the SAA and he shot the rest thru the PSA rifle.

My lot batch ran fine in all the rifles........

Sucks for him as a first entry into the AR world and first case of ammo that I recomended he get....he ain`t scared, he ordered 2 more cases of different ammo, which is good that it did not sour him on the AR platform, first impressions and all.

It did scare him off from SGammo, no matter how I explained it to him, I will continue to purchase ammo as they have no idea what is in the ammo until some one informs them, as they do not make it. I have full faith in them and will continue to order more ammo from them.......


I am sure if he has any left to send back, I would imagine they would offer that, and they send some good ammo back to him, he will be less sour...
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:11 AM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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Trust me. My opinion or experience with IMI ammo isn't etched in stone. Well, not yet anyway.

The man in the arena usually has the best intel. Apparently IMI had someone asleep at the QC inspection table that day if your experience is in fact related to the ammo.

I do think the OP is on the up and up. And I'm glad he is posting his findings. I look forward to hearing from S&G and from other AR shooters using IMI 5.56.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2016, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unretarded View Post
I will call SGammo and let them know.........not sure how much he has left, he shot up 150 ish first trip, or at least that is the amount he saved for me.
Please let us know what they say...
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Old 06-18-2016, 8:41 PM
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They were great and offered to pay to have what was left shipped back and offered a full refund on any unfired rounds.......more than acceptable.

No hassles at all and were great to deal with.......I will still be using them for ammo,as stated before the great customer service.
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Old 06-18-2016, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
I'd say 1:100,000 chance that it's the IMI factory ammo.
There's a thread over on barf.com about some IMI blowing primers. So maybe 2:100,000....
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Old 06-19-2016, 1:06 PM
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I once had an issue with blown primers on IMI ammunition. My unit went to Gunsite training center way back in 1998 and the military did a Non standard procurement (ammo not drawn at ASP) and we noticed some of the cases had blown primers and some had gas leakage around the primer.

That being said, the M4A1s ran smooth with the ammo, even on full auto.
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