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  #1  
Old 12-01-2009, 2:11 PM
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Default need CA FFLs that'll handle interstate intrafamily transfers of nonRostered handguns

I'm looking to collect a list of FFLs throughout California that will assist Californians in legal interstate intrafamily transfers of non-Rostered handguns.

As has been posted elsewhere before (stickied somewhere), it is entirely legal for someone outside outside CA to infrequently give his lineal relative(s) in CA non-Rostered, non-exempt handguns using the services of a California FFL.

Quite a few FFLs do not realize this, however. Knowledgable DOJ BoF staff have also confirmed this with some folks, (though I've heard some line DOJ BoF "phone clerks" may not know this).

The basics of intrafamily exemption, again:
  • 12078(c) PC declares intrafamily exemption to CA FFL use for transfers inside CA;
    12078(c) PC also defines authorized exempt lineal relationships;
    12132PC defines various exemptions to Unsafe Handgun ("Roster") laws;
  • authorized lineal relations are defined to be between any of grandparent/parent/child/grandchild only (sorry, no brothers/uncles)

  • CA FFL is NOT required if both parties are CA residents within CA; direct handover is allowed
  • as long as recipient has valid HSC and files reg papers with DOJ (+$19/fee) within 30 days of
    receipt of gun. In this case, both parties must be CA residents and within CA

  • use of CA FFL IS required if gun comes into CA from family member in another state - but that
    is only to keep the *Feds* happy

  • it's good idea for supplying family member to write a simple "gift etter" identifying themselves, describing
    his/her relationship to the recipient, along with the handgun's make/model/serial# ("I want my son
    John Smith to have this nice Colt Python revolver, Serial# 12345"). A copy of this gift letter may be
    useful to keep in files if any questions in an audit.

  • such transfers are *NOT* PPTs: thus FFLs' service fees are not mandated/restricted!

California FFLs should not opt out of this business, it's clearly legal, helps gunnies, offers profits, etc. Just educate your employees on this so they understand everything.

Speaking/writing as CGF board member, we will come in to help if you're following the rules and somebody says you shouldn't be doing this - they're just plain wrong.

Please PM me if you're willing to do this work. Ultimately everyone will do this (just like OLL sales) but we need some early leaders around the state to help out.
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Last edited by bwiese; 12-01-2009 at 2:30 PM..
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2009, 3:10 PM
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PM sent
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2009, 3:13 PM
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PM sent.
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2009, 3:20 PM
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Thank you gentlemen for stepping up. More are welcome.
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2009, 10:19 PM
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No need for a PM. I am down. I will try and get some others too.

I take it we run it as a curio/relic/olympic/exempt transaction?

I think I will make a word document form that will help with this project.

Should we also encourage them to send it from their own address instead of a dealer? I know I would for it to also be sales tax exempt as well.

I don't have any blood, up and down the tree relatives out of state!
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 12-01-2009 at 10:24 PM..
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  #6  
Old 12-02-2009, 3:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
No need for a PM. I am down. I will try and get some others too.

I take it we run it as a curio/relic/olympic/exempt transaction?

I think I will make a word document form that will help with this project.

Should we also encourage them to send it from their own address instead of a dealer? I know I would for it to also be sales tax exempt as well.

I don't have any blood, up and down the tree relatives out of state!
The first one I did a couple of years ago went like this:

Father in TX wanted to give his son in CA a couple of handguns his father had given him.

Called DOJ and talked with an agent at the Firearms Division (now BOF). The agent walked me through it.
  • Get a letter from the father explaining the circumstances.
  • Use the Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt section.
  • Type "SB15 Exempt" in the comments box.
  • Save all documentation.
Simple as that.

These handguns did come through a TX FFL because the father didn't want to deal with the shipping.
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Last edited by halifax; 12-02-2009 at 3:39 AM.. Reason: cleaned it up a bit
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  #7  
Old 12-02-2009, 6:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
The first one I did a couple of years ago went like this:

Father in TX wanted to give his son in CA a couple of handguns his father had given him.

Called DOJ and talked with an agent at the Firearms Division (now BOF). The agent walked me through it.
  • Get a letter from the father explaining the circumstances.
  • Use the Curio/Relic/Olympic Pistol/Exempt section.
  • Type "SB15 Exempt" in the comments box.
  • Save all documentation.
Simple as that.

These handguns did come through a TX FFL because the father didn't want to deal with the shipping.
Nice!
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  #8  
Old 12-02-2009, 6:57 AM
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If I am reading this correctly---I have four sons,one in TX,one in NC, and
one in NY(California one doesn't count). I can have the out of state sons
"gift" me a non rostered handgun? The process just has to go thru FFLs and
the proper fees paid,correct? Pete
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2009, 8:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM4spd View Post
If I am reading this correctly---I have four sons,one in TX,one in NC, and
one in NY(California one doesn't count). I can have the out of state sons
"gift" me a non rostered handgun? The process just has to go thru FFLs and
the proper fees paid,correct? Pete
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2009, 9:20 PM
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Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

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  #11  
Old 12-02-2009, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
<snip>
Please PM me if you're willing to do this work. Ultimately everyone will do this (just like OLL sales) but we need some early leaders around the state to help out.
I just followed directions We're willing to do these too...
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  #12  
Old 12-02-2009, 9:25 PM
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Bill, you and I already talked about this at the Thanksgiving Shoot-n-que, but not only is Riflegear.com willing to do this, we already HAVE done this on a couple occasions.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

You might not have noticed this is not the most popular forum on the boards. A better response would be had in 2nd Amendment.
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2009, 10:23 PM
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I'm in..

but Wes could have spoken for me..
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  #15  
Old 12-03-2009, 5:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
You might not have noticed this is not the most popular forum on the boards. A better response would be had in 2nd Amendment.
Or "off topic"
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:02 AM
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This is the FFL forum. I suspect that others would be willing to do the transfers, but they might have not responded. They can check with the CA DOJ to confirm that it is legal, but some people there know more than others. I confirmed how to do the transfer quite some time ago.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2009, 1:21 PM
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Thanks for the help guys.

The DOJ instruction to mark transaction as "SB15 exempt" should, I believe be more complete.... add "12078(c) intrafamily transfer, 12133PC Roster exempt".

There are many reasons "SB15 exempt" can occur (LEO sale, probate, single-action, single-shot, etc.) and it makes sense to clarify. (What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2009, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
(What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)
Well, luckily for all of us, 2 years later there won't BE a roster
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Old 12-03-2009, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Thanks for the help guys.

The DOJ instruction to mark transaction as "SB15 exempt" should, I believe be more complete.... add "12078(c) intrafamily transfer, 12133PC Roster exempt".

There are many reasons "SB15 exempt" can occur (LEO sale, probate, single-action, single-shot, etc.) and it makes sense to clarify. (What if the gift letter got separated in the paperwork 2 years later during an audit?)
Trouble is the comment field is very short.
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Old 12-03-2009, 1:59 PM
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Write it on the 4473. The main thing is to document it in case you are questioned.

You can also staple the letter to the DROS form.

I would not be worried about losing the letter since there are many other documents which can not be lost and the letter should be kept with them.

My personal opinion is that it is better to just keep the documentation than to include the information on the DROS comment field. I was told by the CA DOJ quite some time ago to just do it as a SB15 exempt. They did not say that there were any requirements for documenting it. The main thing is to be able to show what you did and why.
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  #21  
Old 12-03-2009, 4:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Write it on the 4473. The main thing is to document it in case you are questioned.
Why on earth would you write it on the 4473? The BATFE doesn't care about Californias handgun roster.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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Old 12-03-2009, 9:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
Only three dealers are willing to commit to doing something perfectly legal!!!!

Actually there are many more -- we just don't have time to read all of the activity going on within CalGuns -- one of my guys told me about this thread and I can say out loud right now we support and will support and have supported in the past -- we even give family members a copy of the form for the inside Kalifornia transfer and explain about the $19. This usually results in surprised looks and extreme happiness by both parties.

We have in the past done the out of state family transfer and agree that a letter from the family member makes the ATF happy -- not "required", but they like paperwork trails.

Send them our way and If and I MEAN IF they can show me they are a CALGUNS supporter I will do the whole transfer for $40 which includes the DROS fees --- better bring a printout
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2009, 9:33 PM
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We have in the past done the out of state family transfer and agree that a letter from the family member makes the ATF happy -- not "required", but they like paperwork trails.
You mean the DOJ. ATF doesn't care about roster issues.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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Old 12-04-2009, 12:05 PM
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The reason to put it on the 4473 is to document it. It is part of the required firearm transaction forms and there is a space to put comments there. Just because it is a Federal form does not mean that the CA DOJ can't look at it. The bound book is a Federal form too, do you think that the CA DOJ can't look at that???
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:06 PM
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Bill, I am in also. I'd gladly perform an intra family transfer. Heck I do them now with little fanfare,

Rob
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:10 PM
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Ill do em once I open up in Feb/March
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:13 PM
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Add me to the list Bill. Been handling these since I started.
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2009, 2:02 PM
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you can add norse armory in woodland to the list bill
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  #29  
Old 12-13-2009, 8:13 PM
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We're already in. We've done several in the last few months. We ask for and retain any "gift letters", we note "Intrafamilial Transfer" on the DROS form (in the comments section of the DROS tab) and we do the registration as a Curio/Relic/Exempt handgun. We'll do more of them just like we do internet transfer and PPTs. It's just another service Fort Courage provides.

Bill, PM me if there's anything more we can do to help.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2009, 2:40 PM
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is a step father a legal father under this definition?
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Old 12-18-2009, 3:08 PM
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Did he adopt you? Is there some reason your mother can't do it?
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Old 12-19-2009, 9:07 AM
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Did he adopt you? Is there some reason your mother can't do it?
no , not adopted. mother just complicates things, he has to transfer to her and then her to me.

since they are legally married. isnt he legally by step father whether adopted or not?
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:54 AM
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yes, he may be legally your step-father, but does he meet the legal definition of your "parent", and are you legally his "child"?


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12078(c)(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means any one of the following relationships:
(A) Parent and child.
(B) Grandparent and grandchild.
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Old 12-19-2009, 1:35 PM
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yes, he may be legally your step-father, but does he meet the legal definition of your "parent", and are you legally his "child"?
How on earth was brother/sister exempted from "immediate family member". I can't think of any more "immediate" family members than identical twins, for instance.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2010, 2:57 PM
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JoshuaLuke JoshuaLuke is offline
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Are there any FFL's willing to do this in Orange County? My parents live in Kansas, and I really want a stainless CZ 75B. I would be very grateful to anyone willing to do this!
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Old 01-10-2010, 3:41 PM
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I know several other FFLs that have done it and will do it, but I am not going to speak on their behalf.
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Old 01-11-2010, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaLuke View Post
Are there any FFL's willing to do this in Orange County? My parents live in Kansas, and I really want a stainless CZ 75B. I would be very grateful to anyone willing to do this!
From above:

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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
Bill, you and I already talked about this at the Thanksgiving Shoot-n-que, but not only is Riflegear.com willing to do this, we already HAVE done this on a couple occasions.
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Please read the Calguns Wiki
Quote:
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
--Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment"
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  #38  
Old 02-12-2010, 2:57 PM
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Suchar-Enterprises Suchar-Enterprises is offline
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Suchar Enterprises has always handled these types of transfers. As a previous member noted... "We don't awlays have time to monitor every topic here on CalGuns..."

Count me in.
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  #39  
Old 02-12-2010, 3:58 PM
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Have been and will continue to handle transaction.

Lee Williams
Tunn Tavern Arms
Manteca
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  #40  
Old 02-25-2010, 9:50 PM
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Did this ever become a sticky or a FAQ? I could use some help finding someone in the IE (Riverside area) to do this.
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