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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-22-2009, 7:05 PM
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Default CCW in Gated Communities?

Are Gated Communities considered private property? If they ARE...can you legally CCW there?
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Old 11-22-2009, 7:14 PM
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Wouldnt try it. Anywhere outisde your own apt/condo will probably be considered a public place.
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Old 11-22-2009, 7:35 PM
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They are private property, but you may not CCW (I'm assuming without a permit) without written permission from the property owner.

If you have a permit, then you are good to go.

UOC would be legal, though the school zone issue could still result in an arrest depending on the DA.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:13 PM
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Even though it's a gated community, there might be issues with public access, and if the public can access the area, it's no longer private.

Unless you want to be an example of case law, you may just not want to do it.
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Old 11-23-2009, 6:24 AM
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Originally Posted by locosway View Post
Even though it's a gated community, there might be issues with public access, and if the public can access the area, it's no longer private.

Unless you want to be an example of case law, you may just not want to do it.
Yeah...definitely not interested in being a case law Guinea Pig. But it really WOULD make in interesting case. Because gated areas are not readily accessible to the public. You have to have permission and a reason to be in there and someone from that community has to GRANT you access. This is why you won't get a "Google Street View" from any gated community.
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Old 11-23-2009, 7:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
They are private property, but you may not CCW (I'm assuming without a permit) without written permission from the property owner.

If you have a permit, then you are good to go.

UOC would be legal, though the school zone issue could still result in an arrest depending on the DA.
I don't recall reading anything in the Penal code which gives a 12025 exemption if you have written permission. My understanding was that if you are not the property owner, you may not carry concealed legally without a permit.
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Old 11-23-2009, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sfpcservice View Post
I don't recall reading anything in the Penal code which gives a 12025 exemption if you have written permission. My understanding was that if you are not the property owner, you may not carry concealed legally without a permit.
With permission you can carry LOC or CC on another persons PRIVATE property.
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Old 11-23-2009, 8:12 AM
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its certainly an interesting idea. traffic law doesnt apply in gated communities unless the owner has a contract with the local LE... but guns are a much more touchy issue.
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Old 11-23-2009, 8:20 AM
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The problem is there's some bad case law about what's considered private property, especially when firearms are involved. This is much different from the vehicle code on private property.

I just wouldn't CC in a gated community without a permit. If you need to, just LUCC for the time being until we get some incorporation going.
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Old 11-23-2009, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckBooty View Post
Are Gated Communities considered private property? If they ARE...can you legally CCW there?
See this CGF wiki page.
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  #11  
Old 11-23-2009, 8:57 AM
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Originally Posted by locosway View Post
Even though it's a gated community, there might be issues with public access, and if the public can access the area, it's no longer private.
Correct. Which be anything from a time of day thing, where the access gates are locked only at night. To a maintainance issue. The gate locks are routinely broken allowing non-residents to enter at will.
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by locosway View Post
With permission you can carry LOC or CC on another persons PRIVATE property.
Please don't take this as arguing or hostile, but can you cite any law or valid case law which qualify your statement? If I learn something new, I want to know where to look so I can back it up.
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:23 AM
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If I remember correctly, both gated communities and condominium projects give the owner a nonexclusive right to possess the common areas. In that event, wouldn't the right exist for a property owner to CCW in the common areas? And couldn't he transfer a portion of that right to his guests?

Cordially,
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sfpcservice View Post
Please don't take this as arguing or hostile, but can you cite any law or valid case law which qualify your statement? If I learn something new, I want to know where to look so I can back it up.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._Carry#At_Home
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful John View Post
If I remember correctly, both gated communities and condominium projects give the owner a nonexclusive right to possess the common areas. In that event, wouldn't the right exist for a property owner to CCW in the common areas? And couldn't he transfer a portion of that right to his guests?

Cordially,
John
Even though it's private property, the common area would be considered public, as you have no control over who comes and goes. Another tenant may allow anyone and all to enter, which would make it public.

LOC and CC should not be practiced in common areas. If it's an apartment or condo then do so inside your home, in the garage, or in your patio (gated). As soon as you step into the common area, you're just asking for trouble.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:41 AM
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I am constantly amazed by the participants of CalGuns and this thread is just another example of why.

Concealed means........... concealed! Nobody knows, nobody sees, nobody realizes that you are carrying a CONCEALED firearm and even if they did (which means you are not doing it correctly) the most they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse then you are trespassing.

This also includes the "No CCW" signs on businesses (which I have never seen in Cal.) that I saw mentioned in a CCW specific forum frequented by Calgunners.

When you enter a business you are then playing in their playground and they can ask you to leave if they so chose and carrying concealed with a permit, even if they don't like it, is not illegal until they ask you to leave and you refuse.

God Damn I wish sometimes this state was shall issue just so people would be forced to take the class which explains the law rather than reading a bunch of B.S. from people (nobody specific in this example) that don't know Jack **** !!
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Old 11-23-2009, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful John View Post
If I remember correctly, both gated communities and condominium projects give the owner a nonexclusive right to possess the common areas. In that event, wouldn't the right exist for a property owner to CCW in the common areas? And couldn't he transfer a portion of that right to his guests?

Cordially,
John
Only within his unit or exclusive-use common area (garage, back yard, etc...).
The open common area is, in my case, a 1/65th shared interest.
It would take a motion on the part of the BOD to put the issue to a vote of the homeowners. If 50%+1 agree that is is permissible to CCW within the common area, then it would be legal.
Of course, school zones could be an issue given a recent ruling (pending appeal) that private property accessible to the public is to be treated as non-private property.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #18  
Old 11-23-2009, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gotgunz View Post
Concealed means........... concealed! Nobody knows, nobody sees, nobody realizes that you are carrying a CONCEALED firearm and even if they did (which means you are not doing it correctly) the most they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse then you are trespassing.
Then why not just carry concealed 24/7 without a permit?
Nobody knows if you are concealed properly, so why not just do it?

Ya... many people do so illegally, and most never get caught.
Okay, so you're in your condo complex, just finished working on your car or are taking the garbage out. One of the other units was just broken into, and the cops are on scene. They call you over and begin to ask questions.
What if, for whatever reason... you admit to carrying, they believe you are and pat you down, whatever... what happens when they do catch you?
It would be no different than if you were carrying illegally on the sidewalk.

The fact that you can't actually use the gun without it being revealed that you are carrying either illegally or in a situation where the legality is questionable is another problem entirely.
A "good shoot" by a person legally carrying will likely result in no charges filed. A "good shoot" by a person illegally carrying will likely be considered a "bad shoot".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 11-23-2009, 1:37 PM
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Quote:
I am constantly amazed by the participants of CalGuns.....................that don't know Jack **** !!
Funny, nonsensical post.

As for the OP, in a condo situation the only legal place to CCW without a permit is inside unless you have a fenced and gated "backyard". Stepping outside the front door, unless there is another fenced gated area there, wouldn't be legal either.

What locosway posted is, I guess, what some court cases have applied to the question, but I think it is immaterial because no HOA is going to give authority to CCW to members, since doing so would make the HOA liable for the actions of the armed member. Do you trust your neighbors 100% to make the right decision in this litigious climate? I sure don't. HOA's survive by keeping their deep pockets buttoned up.
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Old 11-23-2009, 1:41 PM
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HOA's survive by keeping their deep pockets buttoned up.
Deep pockets?

A gunshop owner struggling to pay the rent has deeper pockets than my HOA.

The HOA has no deeper pockets than the homeowners that make it up... which isn't much in a condo complex in today's economy.
We don't have enough cash on the balance sheet to purchase even one unit.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 11-23-2009, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckBooty View Post
Yeah...definitely not interested in being a case law Guinea Pig. But it really WOULD make in interesting case. Because gated areas are not readily accessible to the public. You have to have permission and a reason to be in there and someone from that community has to GRANT you access. This is why you won't get a "Google Street View" from any gated community.
Not true I can get one of my complex which is gated.
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:07 PM
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Kyla... if someone invited Google into the complex, they can then drive around for that "Street View" thing to occur. Typically, the Google Street View van just can't enter the property "just because". They'd be documenting their own trespassing if they entered onto private property without permission.
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Only within his unit or exclusive-use common area (garage, back yard, etc...).
The open common area is, in my case, a 1/65th shared interest.
It would take a motion on the part of the BOD to put the issue to a vote of the homeowners. If 50%+1 agree that is is permissible to CCW within the common area, then it would be legal.
Of course, school zones could be an issue given a recent ruling (pending appeal) that private property accessible to the public is to be treated as non-private property.
Even if the HOA members voted to allow CCW in common areas, those common areas would still be considered "public" areas. That would most definitely make things MUCH more interesting because you'd essentially have a common area of which you have zero individual control over, with "permission" from the HOA saying you can carry there.

In other words, I can give you permission to CCW on my property... but if you carry on my property in an area that's open to the public... you could still be considered "in public"... and my permission would be not much more than an afterthought... but if you were to carry in a non-public area of my property... you're definitely golden.

Interesting issue....
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Old 11-23-2009, 9:31 PM
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Even if the HOA members voted to allow CCW in common areas, those common areas would still be considered "public" areas. That would most definitely make things MUCH more interesting because you'd essentially have a common area of which you have zero individual control over, with "permission" from the HOA saying you can carry there.

In other words, I can give you permission to CCW on my property... but if you carry on my property in an area that's open to the public... you could still be considered "in public"... and my permission would be not much more than an afterthought... but if you were to carry in a non-public area of my property... you're definitely golden.

Interesting issue....
The convo has been regarding gated communities, so public access would be restricted to those with permission of the owners (plus service/delivery people)... similarly to a gated front yard that you had given permission for a friend to CCW.

But I agree, it can be touchy if the common area is within a GFSZ.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 11-24-2009, 9:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Deep pockets?

A gunshop owner struggling to pay the rent has deeper pockets than my HOA.

The HOA has no deeper pockets than the homeowners that make it up... which isn't much in a condo complex in today's economy.
We don't have enough cash on the balance sheet to purchase even one unit.
A Court ordered payment to a winning party against the HOA (not covered by insurance) will cause the HOA to raise dues to pay....all the owners are the "deep pockets"...
.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:24 AM
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A Court ordered payment to a winning party against the HOA (not covered by insurance) will cause the HOA to raise dues to pay....all the owners are the "deep pockets"...
.
Special assessment....
And in my complex, 50% would just BK.
Seems we've got a quarter of the owners on the aging and at least 10% into us for more than 3 months.

What little we have in reserves would pay into the judgment, and at that point, we would not meet minimum reserves, so the state would take over management and the BoD would be dissolved.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:30 AM
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There is also the question of how an insurance carrier would feel about the HOA authorizing CCW, and increasing potential liability......a lot.
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