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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 374 15.34%
$100 305 12.51%
$500 717 29.41%
$1000 502 20.59%
$1500 102 4.18%
$2000 202 8.29%
$5000 125 5.13%
$10000 49 2.01%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.54%
Voters: 2438. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2641  
Old 02-12-2013, 5:56 PM
sl0re10 sl0re10 is offline
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Originally Posted by gunrun45 View Post
... I don't like the morals that this portrays... I am not speaking of the posters above me, I am speaking of the general principle voiced by the original thread author in SELLING police credentials... This also means that you would be SELLING police powers, trust, obligation and duty?

Those who have earned that sadi privilege have a purpose outlined in the federal act that granted them. You want your own rights? Figure out how to get a bill passed like the one that narrowly failed recently that would have granted CCW reciprocity in all states.

This is NOT part of the tactics that I wish to collaborate with as a member of calguns. By the very nature of posting a "price range" for BUYING police powers, you spit on the principles of police officers everywhere. This reaks of the very principles of coruption and destitute morals character that Police Officers have been fighting against for decades.
I'd take it seriously. If I used this means to have a concealed carry and someone was shooting at bystanders I would go towards the problem instead of away....
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  #2642  
Old 02-12-2013, 8:13 PM
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If this plan is what it takes to secure concealed carry, then I don't really give a damn about the principles of officers anywhere. My Constitutional right to protect myself and my family comes way before my concern for the principles of police officers.

The local law enforcement that rules over my county of residence refuses to issue LTC's to anyone, regardless of cause, moral character, or MY principals.
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  #2643  
Old 02-13-2013, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
If this plan is what it takes to secure concealed carry, then I don't really give a damn about the principles of officers anywhere. My Constitutional right to protect myself and my family comes way before my concern for the principles of police officers.

The local law enforcement that rules over my county of residence refuses to issue LTC's to anyone, regardless of cause, moral character, or MY principals.
The police are crime-solvers, not crime-stoppers or preventers.
The police are armed for their protection, not yours.
The police have no duty to protect you, in fact, some of them endanger you: the LAPD shot 4 innocent people looking for Dorner—more than he shot if I recall correctly.
Self-defense is an inalienable natural right. The Founders believed it needed to be protected by the 2nd, but they believed it was always the right of all free men naturally.
My Chicken-excrement sheriff won't issue CCW except to cronies or donors either. The Roster, 10-round limits, waiting periods, and more coming. I hate this state but I'll fight as long as I live here.
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  #2644  
Old 02-13-2013, 8:05 AM
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I vote to delete this, it's just too important.
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  #2645  
Old 02-13-2013, 10:21 AM
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I don't see the point in deleting. It's all been hashed out in public and no important strategizing has occurred on the thread in quite some time - so the current form of the legislation may have relatively little to do with the thread at this time anyway.

At this time I don't see much reason to read the thread - or to delete it.
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  #2646  
Old 02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
I don't see the point in deleting. It's all been hashed out in public and no important strategizing has occurred on the thread in quite some time - so the current form of the legislation may have relatively little to do with the thread at this time anyway.

At this time I don't see much reason to read the thread - or to delete it.
Yeah, I keep giving it one more try motivated by foolish hope and am once again disappointed.
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  #2647  
Old 04-06-2013, 9:43 PM
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Oops!
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Last edited by Purple K; 04-06-2013 at 9:49 PM..
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  #2648  
Old 04-06-2013, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
Just like everything else where Lib politicians have some oversight, they've lowered the qualifications and standards at every level that any incompetent p@ssy can get in (and extra points for being a minority candidate).
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  #2649  
Old 04-07-2013, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Waffleobill View Post
Just like everything else where Lib politicians have some oversight, they've lowered the qualifications and standards at every level that any incompetent p@ssy can get in (and extra points for being a minority candidate).
I don't know what you are talking about, but the reply you quoted has nothing to do with P.O.S.T. scores or how ape-like a person is.

What he was saying was that the Right to bear arms across the whole of the US under LEOSA is a right only given to his friends who he thinks deserves that right...even a 95 year old lady who can't see has a right to carry a firearm under LEOSA because she was once a member of his elitist class of citizen.

It doesnt matter to him if a one-eyed, 300lb inbred cousin of the Local Police Chief has a badge... the fact he has a badge from an agency he agrees with, or is a relative of a member, is all that matters.

Its an elitist mentality that as long as you are a member, you get special rights. Guys like member "Dr. Peter Venkman" believe LEO to be a special class of citizen granted special rights.

Its like the Free Masons Guild, only LEO can control your life when they are present. You cannot just say, "I'm a Free mason" without actually being in a Free Masons Guild.

Calguns Member "Dr. Peter Venkman" believes LEOSA only applies to his definition of LEO...and he is wrong.

Lets use the Free Masons Guild as an analogy.
Masons had to travel for both pleasure and work. They need to carry the tools of their trade. In some places those tools and jobs were highly regulated so only a Free Mason could do / carry them. The Free Masons came up with a special law for themselves. Its a secret hand-shake. The hand shake not only identifies you as a Free mason, but also your skill level.... so lets just say all this equals carrying a firearm.

Cops allow other cops to carry a gun, even cops from other States... BUT that means in States where it was illegal for that to happen both cops were violating the law...the guy carrying the gun and the guy allowing him to do it without arresting him. Also some cops were butt-holes to other cops, who didnt let them carry. They didnt think those other cops had a right to carry a gun. So they get the Federal government to pass a law giving all Free Mason Guilds (LEO Agencies) the right to carry the tools of their trade (guns) without identifying any one guild or requirement of a guild.

You see there are thousands of guilds across the US. Some do not acknowledge each other as a proper guild due to training, membership policy and duties carried out. There are Black only guilds, British only guilds, French only Guilds and if you ask some guilds they will tell you those guilds are really NOT Free Masons Guilds at all....except they do exist and any law that says they are allowed to carry tools doesn't give a rats butt what some guilds think of other guilds.

So to Calguns member "Dr. Peter Venkman" I say, the law doesn't care what you think. The law was written to allow ANY LEO to carry nationwide whether or not you think his job is valid. The Job isn't the requirement...the title of LEO is.

Once you start passing laws granting freedom that only pertain to special people, only special people have freedom.

Last edited by dieselpower; 04-07-2013 at 8:28 AM..
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  #2650  
Old 04-07-2013, 8:47 AM
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Dieselpower,
Your argument is exactly why there is a 14th Amendment.
It is meant to restrain the forming of "special classes" of citizen, and the reason there is a 2A.
We are all meant to protect ourselves. The California Constitution allows in article 1 Section 1 our Inalieable State Rights, the only problem is our Reperesentatives/Legislators , have made Nearly All forms of self defense illegal, even some less than lethal forms of self defense. On top of that, the special class of citizen has no obligation to protect anyone in addition to being exempt from ALL laws pertaining to the average citizen.
I have a friend who is a Sheriff in another state that said he would deputize me so I could carry in CA under 218
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  #2651  
Old 04-07-2013, 9:50 AM
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  #2652  
Old 04-07-2013, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
Dieselpower,
Your argument is exactly why there is a 14th Amendment.
It is meant to restrain the forming of "special classes" of citizen, and the reason there is a 2A.
We are all meant to protect ourselves. The California Constitution allows in article 1 Section 1 our Inalieable State Rights, the only problem is our Reperesentatives/Legislators , have made Nearly All forms of self defense illegal, even some less than lethal forms of self defense. On top of that, the special class of citizen has no obligation to protect anyone in addition to being exempt from ALL laws pertaining to the average citizen.
I have a friend who is a Sheriff in another state that said he would deputize me so I could carry in CA under 218
He has to issue you an ID / Credentials of some kind.
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  #2653  
Old 04-07-2013, 5:07 PM
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sheriff buddies are how all the big "celebrity gunners and trainers have LEO credentials"aka steven seagal, ted nugent, and many others. Here in CA it would be pretty easy to be a reserve officer 3 and get an ID for LEOSA compliance.
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  #2654  
Old 04-08-2013, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
sheriff buddies are how all the big "celebrity gunners and trainers have LEO credentials"aka steven seagal, ted nugent, and many others. Here in CA it would be pretty easy to be a reserve officer 3 and get an ID for LEOSA compliance.
Fairly easy? Not for most of us–only those like 'glockman19' who have well-placed friends you mean. I don't know a single LEO with administrative power who would give me such LEO credentials even if I earned them with minimum POST training.

Reserve officers have age (typically 45) and physical requirements (not to mention duty requirements and headcount limits) that I wasn't aware the 2A has for self defense so that is where this all goes wrong. Right there.
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  #2655  
Old 04-08-2013, 1:59 AM
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It IS easy if you have a friend in the correct position. Take a few post classes and have them put you on non paid reserve. Still have to do a long background check but think about barney fifes brother in law in a small town. Its a lot different than getting Sac PD (good luck) to put you as a reserve deputy. They will make tou go through a whole damn academy. I have a day job!
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  #2656  
Old 04-08-2013, 7:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
It IS easy if you have a friend in the correct position. Take a few post classes and have them put you on non paid reserve. Still have to do a long background check but think about barney fifes brother in law in a small town. Its a lot different than getting Sac PD (good luck) to put you as a reserve deputy. They will make tou go through a whole damn academy. I have a day job!
IIRC, Sheriff Baca does not allow Level 3 or Level 2 LASD reserves to carry outside their allotted station building. And it is a lot of very hard work to become even a level 3, though they did waive the age restrictions a few years back.
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  #2657  
Old 04-08-2013, 8:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
IIRC, Sheriff Baca does not allow Level 3 or Level 2 LASD reserves to carry outside their allotted station building. And it is a lot of very hard work to become even a level 3, though they did waive the age restrictions a few years back.

Its not within the Sheriffs authority to over rule a Federal law especially while the Reserist is in another State.. If they meet the requirement, they can carry nationwide. What the Sheriff doesn't know won't upset him.
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  #2658  
Old 04-09-2013, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dieselpower View Post
Its not within the Sheriffs authority to over rule a Federal law especially while the Reserist is in another State.. If they meet the requirement, they can carry nationwide. What the Sheriff doesn't know won't upset him.
I never said it was. The tenor of the post to which I responded was that it was easy to get a position as a reserve, just do a couple of POST classes, get appointed as a reserve and off you go carrying your firearm.

Whereas this is certainly possible for a small select few of us, it is not nearly as easy for most of us and certainly not as universal as it appeared in the post I responded to. As Mag360 said: "It IS easy if you have a friend in the correct position." Sure, and I could easily become an astronaut if I knew someone high enough at NASA.

If you, or anyone, know of some friendly sheriff official in some other county willing to freely issue such credentials to the likes of me, residing in Baca land, I'm sure there are many on this board who would like an introduction.

If not, this is just another way for yet another small select group to become "friends of the sheriff" and receive special treatment not available to any one else.

Note, this post is not knocking the Montana proposals in this thread, as those will, AFAIK, not depend on having a friend in the "correct" position.
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Last edited by Glock22Fan; 04-09-2013 at 9:05 AM..
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  #2659  
Old 04-09-2013, 9:39 AM
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Not sure how the Montana Gambit is working. I think their session ends on the 27th?
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  #2660  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:21 PM
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Any updates Ajax?
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  #2661  
Old 04-09-2013, 2:20 PM
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if no updates we wait 2 more years for them to be in session
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  #2662  
Old 04-09-2013, 5:24 PM
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I did a bit of a search and found this: http://tinyurl.com/ccxmajc

That is obviously a bit out-of-date, but I don't see anything even up for committees which would seem to fit with the subject of this thread.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to like in that link - and gives an interesting comparison and contrast to what we have going on here in California.

But I'm guessing we aren't getting updates for one of several reasons:
1. The concept died some time ago and there is nothing to update at all other than finally saying that the effort is at an end.
2. The legislation I'm looking for is just not on the list because no action is needed or pending.
3. Or, the legislation is being kept on the QT and is going to be introduced toward the end of the session and then it is expected to sail through. I seriously, seriously doubt this one - if I were a Montana legislator I would insist that legislation of this type be thoroughly examined in several committees and subjected to lots of comment or I wouldn't vote for passage.

We've had 67 pages (by the settings I use) of discussion (sometimes heated) on this forum about this attempt. I would expect a discussion in the Montana Legislature which would be more extensive than what we have done. And I'm just really not entirely sure that Montana is really going to want to set up the structure for this proposed system without really knowing what kind of revenue stream they could expect and exactly what their costs might be.

One might hope that Montana would do something like what was proposed just to put a thumb in the eye of the feds (and California), but they're already working on doing that in other ways so I'm not sure they feel the need to do that on our behalf at this time.

But it is also possible that I'm missing something in the link at that the appropriate legislation is barreling through the Montana Legislature - but I don't see it.
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  #2663  
Old 04-11-2013, 4:41 PM
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I'm checking in with our guy on the ground who is pushing this forward,

its on the QT but there have been some issues.

Will update when I can.
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  #2664  
Old 04-11-2013, 6:02 PM
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Glad to hear it is on the QT!
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  #2665  
Old 04-11-2013, 10:06 PM
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Well here is some good news from Montana, House Bill 304 was sent to Governor Steve Bullock for his signature on April 2nd. This is the "Constitutional Carry" bill that eliminates the requirement for a concealed weapon permit in Montana towns and cities. This would make MT a true "Concealed Carry" state as permits are currently ONLY required in towns and cities.

House Bill 304 passed the MT House 58-41 and the MT Senate 30-19, so read into those votes what you may. Now hopefully Gov. Bullock will sign this!
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  #2666  
Old 04-12-2013, 7:42 AM
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Glad to hear it is on the QT!
Oh, Quick Track. I guess it's a generation thing (either that or transatlantic translation) because I read QT as meaning "quiet" and that the issues could not be revealed or discussed in public. You have set my mind at rest, OleCuss. Thanks. Now let's hope the issues aren't sufficient to slow down the "QT."
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Old 04-15-2013, 9:42 PM
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I'd rather have no news, than bad news, will continue to keep fingers crossed.
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  #2668  
Old 04-21-2013, 3:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Daze View Post
Well here is some good news from Montana, House Bill 304 was sent to Governor Steve Bullock for his signature on April 2nd. This is the "Constitutional Carry" bill that eliminates the requirement for a concealed weapon permit in Montana towns and cities. This would make MT a true "Concealed Carry" state as permits are currently ONLY required in towns and cities.

House Bill 304 passed the MT House 58-41 and the MT Senate 30-19, so read into those votes what you may. Now hopefully Gov. Bullock will sign this!
Vetoed by Gov. Bullock on 4/12 and he has also vetoed a few other pro-gun bills this year...looking like the next Colorado?
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  #2669  
Old 04-22-2013, 8:50 PM
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That's what happens when you elect democrats. There's no reason to not have CC in Montana. He's hust another Dem in a progun state who pretends to be progun. He also vetoed the NDAA Indefinite Detention Nullification bill.
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  #2670  
Old 04-22-2013, 9:06 PM
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0 as in ZERO dollars. Those credentials must not be brought at any price. Period. They day they can be brought in any way shape or form we stop being a nation of laws.
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  #2671  
Old 04-22-2013, 9:11 PM
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  #2672  
Old 04-22-2013, 9:31 PM
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  #2673  
Old 04-23-2013, 6:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
0 as in ZERO dollars. Those credentials must not be brought at any price. Period. They day they can be brought in any way shape or form we stop being a nation of laws.
So you support an elitist class of citizens having more rights than others, or just happen to be in law enforcement in complete ignorance of Paelian principles or anything else Robert Peel wrote? Which is it?
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Obama's Favorite TV show? "Homeland", about a Muslim who betrays his nation on the way to the White House...http://tinyurl.com/c8tvk92
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:12 AM
mag360 mag360 is offline
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Hpbrowningmk3 I'd love to listen to you explain why some animals are more equal than others.
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Old 04-23-2013, 6:21 AM
OleCuss OleCuss is offline
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No seeming objection to Farrakhan's son having credentials and a cop car to drive around in.

But an extremely limited scope of service (far less than was intended by our framers) is entirely unacceptable?

It is time to go back to the early days of our country and understand what the militia was. That militia was, effectively, the police force as well as the military force. All able-bodied males were members (generally age 16-60).

Now the idea that you have to be employed by the government in order to engage in the role envisioned by our framers and firmly ensconced in the 2nd Amendment?

It's history and it is destiny. We have to understand it.

One other thing. I have never been an LEO.

But I do have training. I do have a combat badge. It is not at all clear to me how the LEO training is superior to mine and somehow enables the LEO to competently bear arms in a manner which I cannot.

I do understand the mindset of LEOs who have been given some perks through their admirable training and service. I've no problem with that.

But you need to take a look at why the rights exist and why employment by a government agency should not be a requirement for one to exercise a fundamental right.
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  #2676  
Old 04-23-2013, 7:13 AM
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Is there any suggestions that the Montana legislature might override the veto? Not sure if the numbers are quite high enough as it stands, but both houses made pretty strong statements by their votes.
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Old 04-23-2013, 9:20 AM
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Meplat Meplat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
0 as in ZERO dollars. Those credentials must not be brought at any price. Period. They day they can be brought in any way shape or form we stop being a nation of laws.

Sorry. That train left the station years ago!
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  #2678  
Old 04-23-2013, 10:54 AM
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Window_Seat Window_Seat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
Is there any suggestions that the Montana legislature might override the veto? Not sure if the numbers are quite high enough as it stands, but both houses made pretty strong statements by their votes.
"(3) If after receipt of a veto message, two-thirds of the members of each house present approve the bill, it shall become law." (Constitution of Montana -- Article VI -- THE EXECUTIVE, Section 10. Veto power.).

If my math is right, I doubt seriously that with only Senate votes ≈ 36.7% in favor and House votes ≈ 27.6% in favor, we'll get a veto override. As one other noted, MT could be going the way of CO if the voters don't work on getting every single one of the "Nay" voters (INCLUDING the Gov.) out.

Erik.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
"(3) If after receipt of a veto message, two-thirds of the members of each house present approve the bill, it shall become law." (Constitution of Montana -- Article VI -- THE EXECUTIVE, Section 10. Veto power.).

If my math is right, I doubt seriously that with only Senate votes ≈ 36.7% in favor and House votes ≈ 27.6% in favor, we'll get a veto override. As one other noted, MT could be going the way of CO if the voters don't work on getting every single one of the "Nay" voters (INCLUDING the Gov.) out.

Erik.
Quote:
House Bill 304 passed the MT House 58-41 and the MT Senate 30-19, so read into those votes what you may. Now hopefully Gov. Bullock will sign this!
By my math, that's Senate 61% in favor (30/49 * 100) and House 58% in favor (58/99 * 100). By your math, ( "Senate votes ≈ 36.7% in favor and House votes ≈ 27.6% in favor"), the measure didn't pass in either house.

So, that's about 60%. It seems not impossible that two or three members might be pursuaded to change sides to prevent the governor overriding the clear wishes of both chambers.

However, it would certainly be a longshot.
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Last edited by Glock22Fan; 04-23-2013 at 11:09 AM..
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  #2680  
Old 04-23-2013, 3:30 PM
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Now we know.
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