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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 373 15.34%
$100 305 12.55%
$500 716 29.45%
$1000 497 20.44%
$1500 102 4.20%
$2000 202 8.31%
$5000 125 5.14%
$10000 49 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.55%
Voters: 2431. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old 11-11-2009, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JaMail View Post
my idea would be, if someone applied for a CCW permit, was turned down, then was raped, or they had a family member shot during a mugging, wouldnt that be cause for ae lawsuits against the LEO that turned them down?
I've wondered about that myself, especially in the context where the sheriff uses the arguement that they are denying due to potential liability. I would think that several lawsuit examples where someone was turned down and then suffered at the hands of the bad guys could help sway someone into signing off on your CCW.

I am thinking that buying a town outside of CA makes more sense. That way, Sacremento has no control over changing the rules to keep the thing from working. Buy a ghost town in Alaska where non-residents can be LEOs and the state is very pro 2A.
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  #202  
Old 11-11-2009, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
So far a couple of states which have shown promise are: Ohio (expressly allows for non resident LEO's with case law to back it up), Pennsylvania (has a class of officer called 'constibles' for which the state is indemnified against the actions of the individual and has case law with HR218), Alaska (no residency requirement, VERY pro 2A),
I really like the sound of Livengood Alaska: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livengood,_Alaska

There was a post office there from 1915 to 1957, and I can find an area code and prefix for Livengood. The current population of 29 (??? 2000 census) could most likely use 15,000 CalGun'rs as part time peace officers. Let's see, 15,000 x $500 application processing fee = $7,500,000.00. Enough to make me think about moving there to help process all of those applications.
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  #203  
Old 11-11-2009, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
I really like the sound of Livengood Alaska: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livengood,_Alaska

There was a post office there from 1915 to 1957. The current population of 29 (??? 2000 census) could most likely use 15,000 CalGun'rs as part time peace officers. Let's see, 15,000 x $500 application processing fee = $7,500,000.00. Enough to make me think about moving there to help process all of those applications.

Quote:
- Density 0.1/sq mi (0.0/km2)
And 10 miles to your nearest neighbor, nice open ranges.
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  #204  
Old 11-11-2009, 3:22 PM
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Default Alaska village police officers

Alaska has something called Village Police Officers. From what I am reading in AK's code of regulations, you can be a VPO for 12 months without having the AK required certification. After 12 months, you have to have a gap in service of 90 days. It would appear that after those 90 days, you are good to go for another 12 months. Anyway, here is the link to the code:

http://www.legis.state.ak.us/basis/folioproxy.asp?url=http://wwwjnu01.legis.state.ak.us/cgi-bin/folioisa.dll/aac/query=[/url][JUMP:'Title13Chap89']/doc/{@1}?firsthit

Go to title 13, Part 6. The link is funky and won't take you to the specific page.

What's the chance that someone here knows someone living in Livengood, AK?
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  #205  
Old 11-11-2009, 3:48 PM
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1609287/posts

i remember when this was up for sale a couple years ago, 1.75 million..

5k people at 500.00 each, and you have 2.5 million, which gives you the gap to run a full time acadamy

http://www.post.ca.gov/faqs/become.asp
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  #206  
Old 11-11-2009, 5:30 PM
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Im in for at least 1k. when you get all the details nailed let me know. by the way, it took me almost two hours to read all the post. can u start a new thread on your find.
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  #207  
Old 11-12-2009, 1:51 PM
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Default AJAX22

AJAX22:

Are you going to condense this info and start a new thread per the above request, or have you already? Please keep us up to date on current status.
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  #208  
Old 11-12-2009, 2:53 PM
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Why would you pay for it when you can just move out of this state...?
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  #209  
Old 11-12-2009, 3:01 PM
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negative. They swore to uphold the constitution of the united states, just like all us veterans and civil servants did. That is why I rejected a career in law enforcement fourty years ago. I saw this coming and knew at some point I would have to refuse to enforce unconstitutional gun laws and lay down my badge. Too bad that idealistic young man did not yet understand the value of a fifth column.


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Easy - they swore an oath to uphold and defend the government against all enemies foreign and domestic

(which government, incidentally, signs their paycheck)

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  #210  
Old 11-12-2009, 3:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
If we did buy a little town in northern california I would GLADLY live there... Anyone else gonna jump on that boat? Hell I'll be the mayor
Only if you promise to be dog catcher, not mayor!
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  #211  
Old 11-12-2009, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
I would contribute to Carona's re-election campaign.

Whoops, did I just post that?
yep, $1k was the going rate
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  #212  
Old 11-12-2009, 5:13 PM
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Before reading this thread, I voted $500. After reading the thread and understanding the legitimacy and legality of the idea, I'd contribute $1,000 or more, including my own time to help do the grunt work. My preference would be to buy a small town (like Livengood, AK) instead of paying an "administrative fee", since the latter some anti might attempt to construe as bribery or other such nonsense. If we went the "administrative fee" route, we should actively involve lawyers to ensure legality and integrity. If we bought the town, then my feeling is there would be less room for misinformation.

Either way, great idea. This kind of fresh thinking is truly inspiring. CG at its best!
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  #213  
Old 11-12-2009, 10:39 PM
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Can we just start our own town? Gunville, KS?
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  #214  
Old 11-13-2009, 12:01 PM
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Been making phone calls today, if anyone knows of any sherrifs, mayors, or communities who are particularly pro gun please let me know.

Some I've come across are:

Greenleaf Idaho
Mayor Brad Holton (208) 454-0552?

Kennesaw Georgia
(770) 424-8274 Mayor Mark Mathews
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  #215  
Old 11-13-2009, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollabillz View Post
Can we just start our own town? Gunville, KS?
Its been brought up a few times... And it is a pretty good idea... however, it requires a large initial capital investment which tends to doom projects.
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  #216  
Old 11-13-2009, 1:18 PM
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I would not use these "credentials" to CCW, but I WOULD use them to buy some more off-list toys.
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  #217  
Old 11-13-2009, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Legasat View Post
I would not use these "credentials" to CCW, but I WOULD use them to buy some more off-list toys.
I thought you had to be CA LEO for exemption status.

Also what is CGF view on this? Will it hold up,it seems like something the feds would swarm in on.
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  #218  
Old 11-13-2009, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by G17GUY View Post
I thought you had to be CA LEO for exemption status.
Hmmm, not the way I understood it. But, I have been wrong before!
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  #219  
Old 11-13-2009, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Been making phone calls today, if anyone knows of any sherrifs, mayors, or communities who are particularly pro gun please let me know.

Some I've come across are:

Greenleaf Idaho
Mayor Brad Holton (208) 454-0552?

Kennesaw Georgia
(770) 424-8274 Mayor Mark Mathews
Looks good. Assuming they were picked for their requiring residents to keep guns?

The smaller the better, but both Idaho and Georgia seem to have POST requirements...
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  #220  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by G17GUY View Post
Will it hold up,it seems like something the feds would swarm in on.
I think the key is having a competent lawyer(s) to make sure we're following the law to the letter (and we avoid any liability gotchas, which is critical at this scale), and of course a friendly mayor that could use a small reserve pool of out-of-state officers, in the event they're needed in the future.

Beyond that, there would be a fairly big political cost to pay if they tried legislative reform to restrict LEO liberties, but by then we'll all already be enjoying shall issue under incorporation right?
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  #221  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hollabillz View Post
Looks good. Assuming they were picked for their requiring residents to keep guns?

The smaller the better, but both Idaho and Georgia seem to have POST requirements...
It seems like GA may have a legal requirement for POST certification, but I think in Idaho it is not a legal requirement.
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  #222  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
It seems like GA may have a legal requirement for POST certification, but I think in Idaho it is not a legal requirement.
If that's the case, Greenleaf seems like a great candidate! They have a population of less than 1,000, versus Kennesaw's 20,000, and seem to be less economically developed. Which of course means a landslide of LEO applicants could bring a much appreciated stream of administrative revenue to the town.
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  #223  
Old 11-13-2009, 3:24 PM
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While I'm not sanguine that this admirably outside-the-box idea will ultimately be feasible, one way to offer a "genuine service" (if legally advisable) would be to purchase a house in the issuing town and ask/allow/whatever members to spend a week or two there as "on call" reserve officers. Doesn't matter if you were called--you were present and available for service.

Yep. You also get a time-share vacation home with your LEO credentials. NOW how much will you pay?

I suppose for California types used to el cheapo homes costing between a quarter and a half million dollars I should point out that there are places (I can name one) where houses can be had for a few thousand dollars. You just have to find a small rural town where external forces have destroyed the economy so that there are a lot of vacant homes that have no buyers, whatever their theoretical value.

The grain elevator moved out of my dad's old hometown in Montana, and the population is maybe half what it was twenty years ago. That translates to quite a few unsalable homes. Montana is apparently not suitable for your purposes, but there must be plenty of other homes across the West in a similar situation.

The "right" way to do this, naturally, is to see if you can find a place where the hunting or something is good so some will be happy to visit for a while. That is contrary to the goal of finding a place with super-cheap real estate, however.

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  #224  
Old 11-13-2009, 4:01 PM
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7x57. I'm not sure what that helps unless we're required by law to reside in our jurisdiction. Is there something I'm missing? (happens a lot ) If anyone wants to do this on the side, to the town's approval and benefit, why not...
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  #225  
Old 11-13-2009, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hollabillz View Post
7x57. I'm not sure what that helps unless we're required by law to reside in our jurisdiction. Is there something I'm missing? (happens a lot ) If anyone wants to do this on the side, to the town's approval and benefit, why not...
Read his post again. It's all about INCENTIVE.
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  #226  
Old 11-13-2009, 4:13 PM
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Read his post again. It's all about INCENTIVE.
Ohhhhh lol, got it. I must not be the target market for that kind of incentive.
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  #227  
Old 11-13-2009, 6:41 PM
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Ohhhhh lol, got it. I must not be the target market for that kind of incentive.
Also, if it turns out that your legal eagles say that it won't fly if you're not providing a concrete service to the town, you have a service: emergency/reserve deputies/constables/whatever.

But mainly I want you to prove me wrong that it's not going to work so I can go do my week or two of hard, slavish duty every year carrying a pager while hunting and fishing in the Rockies or something. Because I'm just that kind of giving, selfless guy.

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  #228  
Old 11-13-2009, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Been making phone calls today, if anyone knows of any sherrifs, mayors, or communities who are particularly pro gun please let me know.

Some I've come across are:

Greenleaf Idaho
Mayor Brad Holton (208) 454-0552?

Kennesaw Georgia
(770) 424-8274 Mayor Mark Mathews
Shouldn't they be in one of the states you mentioned?
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  #229  
Old 11-13-2009, 7:00 PM
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So, let's start narrowing this down one step at a time beginning with states. The chosen state must allow non-resident LEOs. Based on memory on what AJAX22 previously said, there are two that come to mind, Alaska and Ohio. So here is the acceptable/rejected state list:

Acceptable
1. Alaska
2. Ohio
3. California
4. NC?
5. Alabama
6. Tennessee


Rejected
1. All others until someone verifies that residency is NOT a LEO requirement.

Another state level caveat is a POST requirement. From the way I read it (I am no lawyer though), you can maintain LEO status for 1 year in AK without certification. After that, you have to have at least a 90 day gap to reset that 1 year requirement. I have not looked at Ohio's requirements.

I will edit/add to this post as others supply information so that we can get this narrowed down. Once top level requirements are thoroughly researched and addressed, we can start looking at counties and towns within the identified states. 48 states to go, please help me out with this.
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  #230  
Old 11-13-2009, 7:20 PM
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Found California's:

The minimum peace officer selection standards are set forth in Government Code Sections 1029 and 1031. Every California peace officer must be:
free of any felony convictions;
a citizen of the United States or a permanent resident alien who is eligible for and has applied for citizenship (CHP officers must be US citizens at time of appointment);
at least 18 years of age;
fingerprinted for purposes of search of local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose any criminal record;
of good moral character, as determined by a thorough background investigation;
a high school graduate, pass the General Education Development test or have attained a two-year, four-year, or advanced degree from an accredited or approved institution, and
found to be free from any physical, emotional, or mental condition which might adversely affect the exercise of the powers of a peace office


Will add CA to acceptable list above. I really think that we should locate the town outside of CA so that Sacramento can't legislate us out of existence, but I will leave that up for discussion.

Interesting caveat for CA peace officers:

Level III Penal Code sections 830.6(a)(1) and 832.6(a)(2)
Level III reserve officers may perform specified limited support duties, and other duties that are not likely to result in physical arrests, while supervised in the accessible vicinity by a Level I reserve officer or a full-time regular officer. Additionally, Level III reserve officers may transport prisoners without immediate supervision.

NOTE: no mention of POST or other certification for Level III officers.
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  #231  
Old 11-13-2009, 7:31 PM
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Found a cool reference site for reserve law enforcement requirements....

http://www.nrlo.net/TrainingAuthorities.html

currently reading up...
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  #232  
Old 11-13-2009, 7:38 PM
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Washington state:

The only thing I have been able to find so far is in regards to certification requirements:

Who must be certified?
Every full-time peace officer in Washington state, including the Washington State Patrol, and Fish and Wildlife officers regardless of rank. Reserve Officers do not need to be certified.


ONE THING THAT REALLY CAUGHT MY EYE: Washington state treats Indian Tribes completely different. Perhaps we should be offering to be contracted LEOs for an Indian tribe rather than for a town? Anyone with Indian affairs background or knowledge? Does the federal law that allows for LEO nationwide CCW include tribal LEOs?
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  #233  
Old 11-13-2009, 7:56 PM
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Check out provision D of the arkansas reserve requirements

Quote:
Honorary police officers are exempt from the provisions of this subchapter.
http://www.clest.org/12_9_304.html

not sure if honorary police officers satisfy HR218's provisions however.
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:02 PM
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Check out provision D of the arkansas reserve requirements



http://www.clest.org/12_9_304.html

not sure if honorary police officers satisfy HR218's provisions however.
Nice find AJAX22. Your thoughts on tribal LEO? I think that a lot of state and federal SNAFUs could be avoided by working with an Indian Tribe as they are sovereign entities if I am not mistaken.
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:05 PM
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Tribal LEO would be ideal, I'd love to whip that out of my pocket....

Anyone have friends/family on a reservations tribal council?
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Tribal LEO would be ideal, I'd love to whip that out of my pocket....

Anyone have friends/family on a reservations tribal council?
I think that any small tribe that doesn't have a casino for cash flow would be open to this type of program.

This would also keep wingnuts from going off the farm on us. The whole authority trip thing that a lot of people seem to have concern with would be negated, unless of course they show up on Indian property and try a power trip. I don't see that happening.
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:31 PM
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Once a state is chosen we can use these links to find a small town to deal with:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7084042AAElD4s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._ten_residents
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:36 PM
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Apparently NC has a category of LEO called a 'Special Deputy' who has full powers of arrest but is appointed without requirement (unconfirmed)

And Alabama has a category of "Honorary" or "Special" Deputies....

TN has an odd category of LEO called a "Conservator of the Peace"
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Old 11-13-2009, 8:59 PM
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The title of Honorary Deputy Sheriff in Illinois confers full powers of arrest apparently...
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Old 11-13-2009, 9:03 PM
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Maryland looks awesome

Quote:
Volunteer/Auxiliary officers/deputies who are granted powers of arrest while on duty are also considered law enforcement officers
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