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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 373 15.34%
$100 305 12.54%
$500 716 29.44%
$1000 498 20.48%
$1500 102 4.19%
$2000 202 8.31%
$5000 125 5.14%
$10000 49 2.01%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.55%
Voters: 2432. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2161  
Old 04-12-2012, 3:56 AM
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I'm not in favor of a ban, but I sort of understand it.

We're spending our time arguing with someone who is an elitist. You actually think that the right to self-defense is not fundamental and that because someone works for the government they should have privileges and rights not available to the rest of us.

You'll find that there is a strong libertarian streak on this forum. We actually respect the average folk and believe they should run the government - not the other way around. We also respect their right to defend themselves from deadly attack.

You may get respect on the forum, but your position/opinion will not. This is especially true since you really do also have little understanding of the relevant law and history related thereto. By this I mean no disrespect, but you have to understand that the fund of represented knowledge here is really quite immense (even if not valued by all).
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  #2162  
Old 04-12-2012, 4:13 AM
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Don't ban him for fist's sake. Let him rant on with his silly elitist nonsense.

Pull up a chair. See the clown. Have a laugh.

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  #2163  
Old 04-12-2012, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KandyRedCoi View Post
ban that troll already...u guys just let him poop all over this thread...wtf?
That's funny.. You want to take away his 1st amendment rights to have a different opinion than you about his (and your) 2nd amendment rights. Just sayin'.
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  #2164  
Old 04-12-2012, 8:41 AM
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Does anyone care to explain how 'first amendment rights' in regard to private internet forums work....?
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  #2165  
Old 04-12-2012, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
Does anyone care to explain how 'first amendment rights' in regard to private internet forums work....?
When someone says something I don't like, I claim the 1st amendment rights don't apply to a private forum.

When I say something someone doesn't like, I tell them it's my 1st amendment right to voice my opinion.








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  #2166  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDavid View Post
That's funny.. You want to take away his 1st amendment rights to have a different opinion than you about his (and your) 2nd amendment rights. Just sayin'.
lol he got to say what he wanted to say...let the ban hammer commence
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  #2167  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
That's right ban me for having a different opinion and expressing it.
and then u can cry in a dark corner about it
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  #2168  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
That's right ban me for having a different opinion and expressing it.
Like you guys do over at the Brady Campaign?
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  #2169  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDavid View Post
That's funny.. You want to take away his 1st amendment rights to have a different opinion than you about his (and your) 2nd amendment rights. Just sayin'.
There's no 1st amendment rights on calguns.
We all live with that fact.
People have had their posts deleted, been warned, and or banned for saying things that would be protected under the 1st amendment elsewhere.
But that doesn't apply here, no matter what side you're on.
If he's banned, he still retains his 1st amendment rights.
He can start his own forum and complain there, nobody here is going to stop him.
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  #2170  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
I like how you say "take back that freedom". You see what I think happened was someone somewhere realized that it was not a good idea to allow people to carry in these modern times, and started restricting your right to bear arms.

But good luck taking back your freedom.
So that "someone somewhere" is qualified and deserving of the authority to take away rights ensured by the framers of our constitution? Boy that makes me feel much better about having my rights infringed. Go back to the pasture with the other sheeple. Fool
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  #2171  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:46 AM
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Is it possible to buy an island somewhere and start your own country? You could model the government after our Constitution and Bill of Rights and amend it to include plain language like.......freedom to bear arms means any style or type at any time, in any place. Your freedom is the freedom to do what you ought and it ends when your actions infringe on another's rights. Not a democracy!! To have a say in anything you must own property!
If you cannot care for yourself then perhaps someone will assist you due to their religious beliefs but your money will not be taken from you on the pretext of being used "for the greater good." Immigration will be strongly controlled and you will have to have means of support or the ability to earn a living to apply for citizenship. Beggars will be sent back to Union Square.
I mean, get real. A concealed weapons permit??!! The idea that you even need one shows you how corrupted our thinking has become and how far we have strayed as a nation from the ideas of our founders.
Believe it, a nation like this would become the wealthiest in the world within a generation! We did, once upon a time.
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  #2172  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
Really don't care. If u want the rights of a cop become one. If u don't like Cali laws, leave.
For someone who "really don't care," you sure are doing a lot of posting.
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  #2173  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
Because this is not a ccw. Your talking getting another state to give you Leo credentials for the sole purpose of being able to carry anywhere as a cop can.

In my opinion I don't think it should be allowed. But I'd be surprised if something like this passed and lasted anyhow.

This isn't the 1700's anymore. I agree guns should be controlled to a point. In my opinion random citizens shouldn't be allowed to just strap a gun on and go around the country with it.

If you can get a ccw more power to you. But I don't think the average person is skilled or intelligent enough to have that power.

Just because you hold such a low opinion of the average person doesn't mean they deserve the opinion you hold of them.

Often what I see with people who speak as you do is 1) They are personally arrogant and believe themselves somehow superior to most around them. 2) They think to themselves "Hmmm....Guns scare me, I dont think I am skilled enough to have that power, and if I am not skilled enough then surely all these other lowly simpletons around me are not skilled enough. Therefore no one should be allowed to carry guns."

What is the truth however? Most likely it is that the majority of your arguments are based in fear, lack of or bad info, and little if any exposure to guns, shooting and "the average gun owner".
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  #2174  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
I like how you say "take back that freedom". You see what I think happened was someone somewhere realized that it was not a good idea to allow people to carry in these modern times, and started restricting your right to bear arms.

But good luck taking back your freedom.
Hmmm....I sure hope someone, somewhere doesn't decide that my rights to free speech, or unreasonable search and seizure, or right to speedy trial etc are not a good idea in these modern times too.

Oh....wait......that kinda already is happening too isn't it?
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  #2175  
Old 04-12-2012, 9:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
Because this is not a ccw. Your talking getting another state to give you Leo credentials for the sole purpose of being able to carry anywhere as a cop can.

In my opinion I don't think it should be allowed. But I'd be surprised if something like this passed and lasted anyhow.

This isn't the 1700's anymore. I agree guns should be controlled to a point. In my opinion random citizens shouldn't be allowed to just strap a gun on and go around the country with it.

If you can get a ccw more power to you. But I don't think the average person is skilled or intelligent enough to have that power.
How about being intelligent enough to speak? Or pick a religion? Or vote?

I'm sure I could craft a test that even you would be unable to pass. Imagine all the rights I could then strip from you.

And let's be honest - what level of skill and intelligence is required to obtain an LTC or a job in law enforcement?
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  #2176  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by boxbro View Post
There's no 1st amendment rights on calguns.
Technically true, as the Bill of Rights only limits what the government can do.

However, most people here accept the Bill of Rights as a set of general principles that define the structure of our society. So, while the 1A doesn't apply to a private forum, at Calguns the bar is very high when it comes to limiting the fundamental rights we all believe we have.

Short of being insulting or otherwise abusive, no one should be banned for disagreeing.
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  #2177  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
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lol he's gotta be trolling after the "this isn't the 1700's anymore."

Uh, maybe not, but the Framers gave us a mechanism to "change with the times" and get Constitutional amendments properly ratified.
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  #2178  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:28 AM
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I think happened was someone somewhere realized that it was not a good idea to allow people to carry in these modern times, and started restricting your right to bear arms.
This is the root of your problem - you have it backwards.

In Europe you had rulers (elite) who chose what to allow people (serfs) to do. This idea that people should be allowed to do something is deeply ingrained in the follower/serf/minion/urbanite/graduate student minds. You have a figure of power or authority around you + a weak mind = submission.

In the USA the people are the rulers and are free to do whatever they want to do. They don't need to ask "someone" to allow them anything. To keep the society structured, we do have laws, but they are only to define what is expressly forbidden. Then we have the Constitution which tells the government (which creates laws) what they, the government cannot forbid. Bill of Rights is the starting point, and 2A is on the front end of it.

Some regulation, primarily to address the real safety - yes. Control - no.
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  #2179  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:38 AM
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Even in England they were relatively ok with nobles telling the serfs what's what. The problem started with the English Civil War and each side would try to deliberately disarm the other when they were in ascendancy. THAT is what the Framers had in mind when adding the Bill of Rights.
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  #2180  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
That's right ban me for having a different opinion and expressing it.
Well you've said your piece and been heard, now go and troll no more.
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  #2181  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
That's right ban me for having a different opinion and expressing it.

It's to have and express an opinion.


Here is how life works out in the real world tho.


When you boldly express an opinion lacking an factual basis, knowledge of the subject or just pure FUD.....expect to get....uhhhh.....shall we say "educated".

Welcome to the real world son.....stick around.....you might learn sumthin one day.
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  #2182  
Old 04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Technically true, as the Bill of Rights only limits what the government can do.

However, most people here accept the Bill of Rights as a set of general principles that define the structure of our society. So, while the 1A doesn't apply to a private forum, at Calguns the bar is very high when it comes to limiting the fundamental rights we all believe we have.

Short of being insulting or otherwise abusive, no one should be banned for disagreeing.
You forgot trolling.
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  #2183  
Old 04-12-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
I like how you say "take back that freedom". You see what I think happened was someone somewhere realized that it was not a good idea to allow people to carry in these modern times, and started restricting your right to bear arms.

But good luck taking back your freedom.
You better be damned glad there are people in the world, like myself and many others here, who are working to prevent further erosion of freedom and to take back that which was lost.

Because I guarantee that for every thing you hold dear, there are people out there who believe you shouldn't have it.

You would be a slave if it weren't for people like us. You would have no right to speak, no right to travel, no right to associate with others, nothing. You would be chattel.


So yes, you should be wishing us luck in taking back our freedom. Because our freedom is your freedom.

And if freedom isn't something you want, then you should move to some other country where it doesn't exist. Then you can be happy in your bondage. You give great offense to everything this country was founded for with your words, sir.


“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
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The real world laughs at optimism. And here's why.

I hope I end up having to donate another $1000 to CGF... However, this $500 is one I hope to not have to donate...

Last edited by kcbrown; 04-12-2012 at 12:11 PM..
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  #2184  
Old 04-12-2012, 12:34 PM
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Why is it, every time this thread gets bumped and I get my hopes up about a real update, it's someone trolling? Damn it.

*Shakes fist in air*
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  #2185  
Old 04-12-2012, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
You better be damned glad there are people in the world, like myself and many others here, who are working to prevent further erosion of freedom and to take back that which was lost.

Because I guarantee that for every thing you hold dear, there are people out there who believe you shouldn't have it.

You would be a slave if it weren't for people like us. You would have no right to speak, no right to travel, no right to associate with others, nothing. You would be chattel.


So yes, you should be wishing us luck in taking back our freedom. Because our freedom is your freedom.

And if freedom isn't something you want, then you should move to some other country where it doesn't exist. Then you can be happy in your bondage. You give great offense to everything this country was founded for with your words, sir.


“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
Made bold and larger.
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Old 04-12-2012, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nm767 View Post
Because this is not a ccw. Your talking getting another state to give you Leo credentials for the sole purpose of being able to carry anywhere as a cop can.

In my opinion I don't think it should be allowed. But I'd be surprised if something like this passed and lasted anyhow.

This isn't the 1700's anymore. I agree guns should be controlled to a point. In my opinion random citizens shouldn't be allowed to just strap a gun on and go around the country with it.

If you can get a ccw more power to you. But I don't think the average person is skilled or intelligent enough to have that power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchbaby View Post
Not to toot my own horn, but to make a point... I once took the POST entrance exam in California just a couple years ago and got an above average score of 64.1. Most cops average at 50. Academies will take candidates as low as 44 or even lower. Less than a year before I was denied a CCW permit. So, tell me... Just because I am curious... Assuming I meet your stated standard of "eligible" being that I'm not a criminal, am I somehow mentally deficient or unintelligent because I can't get a CCW even though I far outscore most who move on to academy and actually get hired? Now mind you, I mean no disrespect to anyone who doesn't score high... Not in the least. I personally didn't move forward in the CHP process because I blew my back preparing for the physical exam. I am now too old to be eligible for the CHP. I suppose that by your comment, my bad back means I can't think critically or perhaps even add one plus one.

I feel like I need to hand you a shovel. It seems that with each post you make you reveal your nature and it appears to me that you do not love the constitution. However, feel free to speak your mind. The first amendment is just as important as the second. Just know this, you are convincing nobody with the things you have to say of anything but the possibility that you have little understanding of what principles made this country great.
Nm767 still hasn't addressed pitchbay's post.

It's a flaw in logic to think someone has to be eligible "enough" to exercise a right that they were already deemed eligible "enough" to have in the first place.
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  #2187  
Old 04-12-2012, 5:17 PM
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The concept behind this thread was wishful thinking, and now this thread has crumbled under its own weight.
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  #2188  
Old 04-12-2012, 5:36 PM
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The concept behind this thread was wishful thinking, and now this thread has crumbled under its own weight.


Although the discussion may be crumbling under its own weight, the operation itself is not. When there is more information to report, we will report it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Casual_Shooter View Post
When someone says something I don't like, I claim the 1st amendment rights don't apply to a private forum.

When I say something someone doesn't like, I tell them it's my 1st amendment right to voice my opinion.

Everyone has the right to free speech.

Everyone else has the right to buy earplugs, or otherwise NOT be forced to listen.
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  #2190  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:21 PM
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:54 PM
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But I don't think the average person is skilled or intelligent enough to have that power.
They said the same about black people and voting, son.
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Old 04-13-2012, 6:56 AM
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Everyone has the right to free speech.
On a privately run forum? (which was the context of the post you quoted)
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Old 04-13-2012, 7:08 AM
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On a privately run forum? (which was the context of the post you quoted)
They have the right to type it. The servers (or the moderators) have the right to reject it. It balances perfectly.

It's not as if we haven't equivalent things with "free speech zones" where the gov't say "you can have your speech, as long as it's a quarter mile away, so we don't have to listen."

I'm sure in the future someone will come up with a way to make a sound deadening plastic box to put around soapboxes in times square. They'll turn into mimes... except they really are in a box.
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Old 04-13-2012, 7:29 AM
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They have the right to type it. The servers (or the moderators) have the right to reject it. It balances perfectly.
Is that your definition of freedom of speech?
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Old 04-13-2012, 11:02 AM
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Although the discussion may be crumbling under its own weight, the operation itself is not. When there is more information to report, we will report it.
Perhaps Doheny's post was wishful thinking.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:27 PM
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Perhaps Doheny's post was wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by post #1
For a summary of this thread please go to www.ccwforall.com
As far as I can see, the latest date for updates etc. is 2010. If something is really happening, it would be nice to see at least some kind of progress report since 2010. As said often here, 2000+ posts is too many to scan when most of them bear no new information. I went through the last 60 posts yesterday without anything added to my understanding.
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
As far as I can see, the latest date for updates etc. is 2010. If something is really happening, it would be nice to see at least some kind of progress report since 2010. As said often here, 2000+ posts is too many to scan when most of them bear no new information. I went through the last 60 posts yesterday without anything added to my understanding.
I agree 100%. Is this idea wishful thinking or does it have enough support in Montana's legislature. All I see is there have been meetings. What happened in the meetings. I think anti-gun states like NY, IL and CA are never going to allow this in their states. What progress has been made. Thanks, Bob.
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
Perhaps Doheny's post was wishful thinking.
No, I'm a realist who works with cops daily and is married to one. They pay too much in blood, sweat and tears during their academy and probation for their credentials; they don't buy them and they’ll do their best to ensure no one else gets by simply paying for them.

Even if there was the slimmest of chances that this went through, it would be quickly slapped down by a governmental agency and/or a Chiefs of Police/police officer type of organization (in other words, they would cause it to end up in court.)
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Old 04-13-2012, 2:55 PM
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"Police" powers? Maybe not.

CCW legal everywhere yes.
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Old 04-13-2012, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Casual_Shooter View Post
Is that your definition of freedom of speech?
Does your version force me to listen?

You are allowed to write. You are allowed to speak. You are allowed to self-publish.

The forum (be it a bookstore, or web-board) is allowed to not carry your writings.

That is freedom, as considered for all parties involved. Your freedom to throw your fists ends somewhere around my nose. Your freedom of speech ends at my front door.
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