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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 382 15.34%
$100 309 12.40%
$500 734 29.47%
$1000 515 20.67%
$1500 102 4.09%
$2000 207 8.31%
$5000 127 5.10%
$10000 50 2.01%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 65 2.61%
Voters: 2491. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2041  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziegenbock View Post
Ajax...is it really ccw you want...are a way to get around the NFA?
I know its become a very long thread, but you didn't read very much of it at all, correct?
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  #2042  
Old 10-28-2011, 11:06 AM
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Ajax...is it really ccw you want...are a way to get around the NFA?
Wow. Just wow.
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  #2043  
Old 10-28-2011, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ziegenbock View Post
Ajax...is it really ccw you want...are a way to get around the NFA?

No, this is not a way around the NFA. It is really National LTC that we want.

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  #2044  
Old 10-31-2011, 9:09 AM
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Old 10-31-2011, 9:33 AM
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  #2046  
Old 10-31-2011, 11:08 AM
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Congrats on a big milestone!
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  #2047  
Old 10-31-2011, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
it seemed simple to me. No roster, no mag limits, carry nationwide.
Regretfully, me thinks this process would not change these rules in CA for a while. Though it will grant carry, to purchase a non-roster handgun I believe the "peace officer" must present something in writing from the department. The same is true for large capacity magazines.

Not sure an Out of state issued LE credential would suffice (maybe a FFL that deals with LE equipment could answer this one).

Lets focus on the ball - 50 state carry. We can research the nuances of how it would affect CA law a bit later. MUCH has to happen before this could become a reality.

(my sister insists on living in Chicago, my other sister lives in Boston. This process would make my travel life much happier. I don't see either city/state allowing normal CCW anytime soon.)
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  #2048  
Old 10-31-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ldsnet View Post
Regretfully, me thinks this process would not change these rules in CA for a while. Though it will grant carry, to purchase a non-roster handgun I believe the "peace officer" must present something in writing from the department. The same is true for large capacity magazines.
Wrong. California has no say in the matter. I can issue a proclamation that everyone in New York must walk backwards on Tuesday and speak French on Thursday, or else he shall be flogged with a celery stick, but that won't mean anything because I don't have the power to regulate such things. It is exactly the same with California and its magazine limits and roster and so on. They may choose to limit people to a ten round magazine from guns on a special list, just like I might choose to require people to walk backwards and speak French. Equally reasonable ideas, equally enforceable. They can say whatever they want, but HR 218 is Federal law and whatever California says means nothing and cannot be enforced. It's the same thing with California trying to legalize marijuana. They can pass whatever laws they want but it has no effect on Federal law and Federal law is enforceable in this state. HR 218 is Federal law!!!!
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  #2049  
Old 10-31-2011, 1:04 PM
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I think you mis-understand the point I was trying to make. YES 218 is Federal law and you can own and Carry under 218.

BUT when it comes to purchase - still CA resident, still bringing said weapon into CA. CA law can and does apply. I am not an expert in the area of digging out the particular PC for every exemption, but if I remember correctly to get the exemption of purchasing a non-rostered Concealed capable firearm, you must be a paid member of law enforcement as defined by 830 PC.

IF that is true - the cert granted by another state department, though granting CCW privelages under Federal law, would not change your purchase status to acquire an off-roster handgun in CA.
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  #2050  
Old 10-31-2011, 1:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ldsnet View Post
I think you mis-understand the point I was trying to make. YES 218 is Federal law and you can own and Carry under 218.
Ah I think I did misunderstand. You are right. Of course it's perfectly legal for California residents to buy magazines while out of state, so they could go to Las Vegas and buy whatever they need and, if they have HR218 protection, drive back to California with no problems. However you are right, buying a handgun out of state is still not possible, and this Montana law wouldn't allow Californians to exempt themselves from the roster, as POST-certified California LEOs can.

I think a lot of people would be happy to get new normal-capacity mags for their Glocks here, and be able to carry them, without needing to beg some sheriff.
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  #2051  
Old 10-31-2011, 1:40 PM
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Oh btw would this bill you are trying to get passed exempt us who sign up for LEO credentials from high cap mag ban and the handgun roster?
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  #2052  
Old 11-01-2011, 12:52 AM
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Ajax,
Have there been discussions on any fees for those of us that apply to take part in the program? Yearly renewal?

Would we receive an ID card of some kind from Montana as credentials? I'm sure they won't want to have a badge created and distributed, unless we head up there for training, but even then I see it as unlikely. I'm wondering how we identify ourselves if we are found to be carrying?
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  #2053  
Old 11-01-2011, 7:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
They can say whatever they want, but HR 218 is Federal law and whatever California says means nothing and cannot be enforced.
I’ll confess that I still don’t see how this would keep someone out of jail until some case law has been established.
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  #2054  
Old 11-01-2011, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by safewaysecurity View Post
Oh btw would this bill you are trying to get passed exempt us who sign up for LEO credentials from high cap mag ban and the handgun roster?
When an FFL in California is presented with LE Credential, they can sell the off roster gun and hi cap mag. The questions is, how many Cali FFL's will be willing to sell to someone with a Cali ID but an out of state LE credential. Technically you should meet the letter of the law of who they can sell to, but Cali DOJ may try to put restrictions on FFL's selling to this ID "configuration".
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  #2055  
Old 11-01-2011, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman View Post
I’ll confess that I still don’t see how this would keep someone out of jail until some case law has been established.
I agree. I'm sure there will be people arrested in NYC and SF for this. I'm sure it will happen until the respective cities' legal departments send a clear message to their police department to stop doing it. Unfortunately both SF and NYC and some cities like that have no hesitation about spending tax dollars on Quixotic legal adventures.
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  #2056  
Old 11-01-2011, 10:48 AM
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And in Los Angeles and in San Diego and in Santa Barbara and in … you get the idea.
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  #2057  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman View Post
And in Los Angeles and in San Diego and in Santa Barbara and in … you get the idea.
Yeah.

Our cities are appallingly over-funded. And they are also going broke at the same time! How is this possible?



It's so super-fun-and-easy to spend other peoples money that no matter how much of it you have, you never have enough of it.



And they are delighted to spend it on lawsuits. You can see that DC, Chicago, and SF have already dumped millions of dollars on lawsuits they knew they would lose, and instead of attempting to cut their losses, they dug in and exhausted every possible defense, even when they knew it was futile.

So yeah, I'm sure these cities will make some arrests. I'm sure they will pay out increasingly large settlements without losing any sleep. But finally they will be told to stop it.
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  #2058  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:03 AM
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Meanwhile, though, someone is in jail. Staying out of jail is the one and only reason I want a license to carry.
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  #2059  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldsnet View Post
Regretfully, me thinks this process would not change these rules in CA for a while. Though it will grant carry, to purchase a non-roster handgun I believe the "peace officer" must present something in writing from the department. The same is true for large capacity magazines.

Not sure an Out of state issued LE credential would suffice (maybe a FFL that deals with LE equipment could answer this one).

Lets focus on the ball - 50 state carry. We can research the nuances of how it would affect CA law a bit later. MUCH has to happen before this could become a reality.

(my sister insists on living in Chicago, my other sister lives in Boston. This process would make my travel life much happier. I don't see either city/state allowing normal CCW anytime soon.)
You do not need anything in writing to purchase high cap mags, you simply need to present your LEO credentials. It was that way before but it changed in 04. Dont know about off roster firearms though.
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  #2060  
Old 11-01-2011, 3:10 PM
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I think it's clear that HR218 would preclude CA from legally questioning the right of a Montana LEO to carry in CA. However, HR218 (to my knowledge) doesn't mention magazines or gun lists. Therefore, CA could quickly pass a law stating that particular auxiliary LEOs from out-of-state (Montana for example) must meet the same magazine and gun list requirements of CA citizens, in regards to purchases in-state. This would not be covered by pre-emption, as there is no federal law concerning such.

I don't believe though, under HR218, CA could stop auxiliary officers from out of state purchases of magazines and off-list guns, then carrying them into CA. However, as mentioned above, they could and likely would waste millions of taxpayer dollars trying to do so.
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  #2061  
Old 11-01-2011, 3:40 PM
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What is Montana P.O.S.T. take on this plan of yours and how does it balance against the below?

23.13.201 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THE APPOINTMENT AND CONTINUED EMPLOYMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS

(1) Public safety officers must meet the applicable employment, education, and certification standards as prescribed by the Montana Code Annotated.

(2) In addition to standards set forth in the Montana Code Annotated, as defined in 44-4-401, MCA, all public safety officers shall:

(a) be a citizen of the United States or may be a registered alien if unsworn;

(b) be at least 18 years of age;

(c) be fingerprinted and a search made of the local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose any criminal record;

(d) not have been convicted of a crime for which they could have been imprisoned in a federal or state penitentiary;

(e) be a high school graduate or have passed the general education development test and have been issued an equivalency certificate by the Superintendent of Public Instruction, or by an appropriate issuing agency of another state or of the federal government;

(f) successfully complete an oral interview and pass a thorough background check conducted by the appointing authority or its designated representative; and

(g) possess a valid driver's license if driving a vehicle will be part of the officer's duties.


History: 2-15-2029, MCA; IMP, 2-15-2029, MCA; NEW, 2008 MAR p. 1587, Eff. 8/1/08.
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  #2062  
Old 11-01-2011, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kmrtnsn View Post
What is Montana P.O.S.T. take on this plan of yours and how does it balance against the below?.
while P.O.S.T. May have a political say in what happens and is ultimately passed the idea is to pass a new law which would obviate the quoted legislation for the category created.
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  #2063  
Old 11-01-2011, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kmrtnsn View Post
What is Montana P.O.S.T. take on this plan of yours and how does it balance against the below?

23.13.201 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THE APPOINTMENT AND CONTINUED EMPLOYMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS

(1) Public safety officers must meet the applicable employment, education, and certification standards as prescribed by the Montana Code Annotated.

(2) In addition to standards set forth in the Montana Code Annotated, as defined in 44-4-401, MCA, all public safety officers shall:

(a) be a citizen of the United States or may be a registered alien if unsworn;

(b) be at least 18 years of age;

(c) be fingerprinted and a search made of the local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose any criminal record;

(d) not have been convicted of a crime for which they could have been imprisoned in a federal or state penitentiary;

(e) be a high school graduate or have passed the general education development test and have been issued an equivalency certificate by the Superintendent of Public Instruction, or by an appropriate issuing agency of another state or of the federal government;

(f) successfully complete an oral interview and pass a thorough background check conducted by the appointing authority or its designated representative; and

(g) possess a valid driver's license if driving a vehicle will be part of the officer's duties.


History: 2-15-2029, MCA; IMP, 2-15-2029, MCA; NEW, 2008 MAR p. 1587, Eff. 8/1/08.
Actually, a casual read indicates it's fine. 46-1-202 defines a "peace officer" as "means any person who by virtue of the person's office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to maintain public order and make arrests for offenses while acting within the scope of the person's authority." The rest of 44-4-401 is irrelevant, and 23.13.21 (2) is a fairly easy test as well.
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  #2064  
Old 11-01-2011, 4:23 PM
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OK, so going off the arguments of people stating that if your not a california LEO, you would be unable to purchase off-roster and high cap's in california with your out of state montana LEO credentials.

I would like to get some buy in from FFL's that sell to FBI, CIA, or any other FEDERAL alphabet agencies.

from the quotes some people are tossing around, it sounds like FBI, and CIA stationed in california are not able to buy off roster and high caps...

They are NOT california law enforcement..

FFL's please speak up, do any of you sell off roster or high cap's to non california LEO's using Federal credentials, if so, why? sounds like they arent covered..
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Old 11-01-2011, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman View Post
Meanwhile, though, someone is in jail. Staying out of jail is the one and only reason I want a license to carry.
It will only happen a few times. It will be a bummer for those few who have to go through it, but once that's over it's over.
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Old 11-01-2011, 7:34 PM
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I recall a HR 218 case in one of the western states. 2 or 3 cops and one fireman got into a bar scuffle, weapons drawn, arrests made. Cops got off under 218, the fireman was prosecuted, however.
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Old 11-01-2011, 9:25 PM
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I recall a HR 218 case in one of the western states. 2 or 3 cops and one fireman got into a bar scuffle, weapons drawn, arrests made. Cops got off under 218, the fireman was prosecuted, however.
Sturgis, SD. A off duty Seattle Cop shot a Hells Angel.
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Old 11-02-2011, 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kmrtnsn View Post
What is Montana P.O.S.T. take on this plan of yours and how does it balance against the below?

23.13.201 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THE APPOINTMENT AND CONTINUED EMPLOYMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS

(1) Public safety officers must meet the applicable employment, education, and certification standards as prescribed by the Montana Code Annotated.

(2) In addition to standards set forth in the Montana Code Annotated, as defined in 44-4-401, MCA, all public safety officers shall:

(a) be a citizen of the United States or may be a registered alien if unsworn;

(b) be at least 18 years of age;

(c) be fingerprinted and a search made of the local, state, and national fingerprint files to disclose any criminal record;

(d) not have been convicted of a crime for which they could have been imprisoned in a federal or state penitentiary;

(e) be a high school graduate or have passed the general education development test and have been issued an equivalency certificate by the Superintendent of Public Instruction, or by an appropriate issuing agency of another state or of the federal government;

(f) successfully complete an oral interview and pass a thorough background check conducted by the appointing authority or its designated representative; and

(g) possess a valid driver's license if driving a vehicle will be part of the officer's duties.


History: 2-15-2029, MCA; IMP, 2-15-2029, MCA; NEW, 2008 MAR p. 1587, Eff. 8/1/08.
Easy. The model legislation creates a class of law enforcement officer that falls outside the statutory definition of "public safety officer".
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Old 11-02-2011, 4:29 PM
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Ajax,
Have there been discussions on any fees for those of us that apply to take part in the program? Yearly renewal?

Would we receive an ID card of some kind from Montana as credentials? I'm sure they won't want to have a badge created and distributed, unless we head up there for training, but even then I see it as unlikely. I'm wondering how we identify ourselves if we are found to be carrying?
Ajax,
Any thoughts on this?
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Old 11-02-2011, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monticore View Post
Ajax,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monticore View Post
Ajax,
Have there been discussions on any fees for those of us that apply to take part in the program? Yearly renewal?

Would we receive an ID card of some kind from Montana as credentials? I'm sure they won't want to have a badge created and distributed, unless we head up there for training, but even then I see it as unlikely. I'm wondering how we identify ourselves if we are found to be carrying?
Any thoughts on this?
I'm reasonably confident this was answered somewhere in the last 2000-odd posts. Multiple times, because ppl insist on asking and not reading...

Short answer:
a) either 2 years or 5 years, likely 5 years
b) Photo ID, not a badge, b/c that's all that HR218 requires.
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Old 11-15-2011, 11:08 AM
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Not sure if this question has been asked here before or not, but...

With a credential, pursuant to the LEOSA, can one carry in a U.S. Post Office Facility?

Erik.
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  #2072  
Old 11-16-2011, 7:56 AM
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I may be ahead of myself here, but if you went with a 5 year credential, could you then "retire" (assuming 5yrs is the vestment period in Montanna) and continue to ccw as a retired Leo?
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Old 11-16-2011, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SoCal Gunner View Post
I may be ahead of myself here, but if you went with a 5 year credential, could you then "retire" (assuming 5yrs is the vestment period in Montanna) and continue to ccw as a retired Leo?
Very interesting thought. I see nothing in LEOSA that would prevent retirement qualification after 5 years.

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Old 11-16-2011, 8:10 AM
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I may be ahead of myself here, but if you went with a 5 year credential, could you then "retire" (assuming 5yrs is the vestment period in Montana) and continue to ccw as a retired Leo?
I believe the period, per most recent version of LEOSA, is 10 years. So, almost.
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Old 11-16-2011, 8:58 AM
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I believe the period, per most recent version of LEOSA, is 10 years. So, almost.
What happened to the 15 years originally discussed?
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Old 11-16-2011, 9:29 AM
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I didn't read through the whole thread, I did look at the web site and didn't see an answer.

Now, forgive me for the simplicity of my question, I have no legal background but from my limited knowledge, but... - laws etc don't exist until they've been tested in court - right?

So, if this goes thru in (MT?) and someone gets arrested in CA for ccw - then the court hears the case, in CA of course - wouldn't this just be viewed as trying to side step current ccw laws? Wouldn't this license just end up being a useless piece of paper that isn't worth the ink its written on? Don't get me wrong - I'd love for this idea to work!
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Old 11-16-2011, 9:42 AM
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I didn't read through the whole thread, I did look at the web site and didn't see an answer.

Now, forgive me for the simplicity of my question, I have no legal background but from my limited knowledge, but... - laws etc don't exist until they've been tested in court - right?

So, if this goes thru in (MT?) and someone gets arrested in CA for ccw - then the court hears the case, in CA of course - wouldn't this just be viewed as trying to side step current ccw laws? Wouldn't this license just end up being a useless piece of paper that isn't worth the ink its written on? Don't get me wrong - I'd love for this idea to work!
AFAIK you'd then have a challenge in CA to allowing LEO's from out of state to carry whilst in CA, which to my knowledge would include those like US Marshals, DEA, FBI, DSS...

...which wouldn't happen.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoke View Post
I didn't read through the whole thread, I did look at the web site and didn't see an answer.

Now, forgive me for the simplicity of my question, I have no legal background but from my limited knowledge, but... - laws etc don't exist until they've been tested in court - right?

So, if this goes thru in (MT?) and someone gets arrested in CA for ccw - then the court hears the case, in CA of course - wouldn't this just be viewed as trying to side step current ccw laws? Wouldn't this license just end up being a useless piece of paper that isn't worth the ink its written on? Don't get me wrong - I'd love for this idea to work!
First off this isn't a "license."

Second, the law that allows local law enforcement to concealed carry across the country is well established and nothing new. This new law is just about defining a new law enforcement position that fits the minimum standards of the already established law. Different states have different standards and qualifications for various law enforcement positions already, so again nothing new.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:56 AM
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First off this isn't a "license."

Second, the law that allows local law enforcement to concealed carry across the country is well established and nothing new.
Well, then wouldn't CA just question if these are actually recognized law enforcement officials or a shell game to get a LTC?

Again, I'm just playing devils advocate cuz if this works, I'll be the first to sign up!
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:31 PM
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Just now reading this thread for the first time. Good info over at ccwforall.com

I wanted to ask...does this group have a politician in Montana who is going to submit this law? Or is that the purpose of the non-profit?
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