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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 373 15.34%
$100 305 12.55%
$500 716 29.45%
$1000 497 20.44%
$1500 102 4.20%
$2000 202 8.31%
$5000 125 5.14%
$10000 49 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.55%
Voters: 2431. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 11-09-2009, 12:15 AM
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Why pay a ton of money for credentials only, when I can pretend to be a cop for less?

Besides, with this baby they'll know I mean business!



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  #82  
Old 11-09-2009, 2:14 AM
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rofl ! I think it's a better idea that we get an ID card instead of a badge. For some reason people with badges all seem to have major ego problems!
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  #83  
Old 11-09-2009, 2:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola View Post
Sounds weird...what's the idea?
Wierd, that is what Sheriff Carona did.
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  #84  
Old 11-09-2009, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt. Speirs View Post
Wierd, that is what Sheriff Carona did.
Also, what a former Nye County (NV) Sheriff Wade Lieseke did as well. Issued special badges/granted special LEO status as favors to friends & contributors. All came to light when one of the special LEOs got into an arguement with TSA about being able to carry a loaded handgun onto an airplane. Sheriff lost his job over the hubub. All the special LEOs got their status revoked, because none of them were POST certified. Some of them were found to have had Post-'86 MGs in their possession for "LE use", the BATFE was not pleased.
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  #85  
Old 11-09-2009, 7:53 AM
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Some thoughts on the practicality of purchasing a “Town”, incorporating it and having potentially thousands of “deputies” running around the country with law enforcement credentials. Buying a town, cheap part, keeping the city from going broke with law suits and legal wrangling, “priceless”. I suppose if you had the blessings of large organization such as NRA it might be possible to stay of trouble for a while but once the politicians and the media got wind of this, the antis would all over this in a heartbeat. I can see them now, lights and cameras all around, microphones sprouting from all corners, Nancy Pelosi, her face with that just stretched look, breathlessly announcing new bills to prevent this travesty… Do I like the idea yes, but you have to figure lowest common denominator of IQ and common sense of the ‘deputies”. The probability of one out of 10,000 getting into trouble and doing something really stupid (shooting someone, unlawfully arresting someone, etc) within a year days of issuance is likely 100%. So some plaintiff, backed with the full force of the feds will sue everybody in the “town” and our 500 -1000 dollar CCW becomes worthless because there is no town, no mo.

All that being said, would I bite? Yes I throw out $500 just to tic Pelolsi off. If this thing was big enough, 100,000 plus with enough concentrated voting power it might help force the issuance of valid CCWs in CA. All that being said, would it be better to throw $500 directly to the CCW cause?
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  #86  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:03 AM
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Shouldn't this be in the CCW Discussion Forum? What does this have to do with 2A? Just saying....
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:17 AM
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There are special classes of Leo in some places for which municipalities are indemnified against actions committed by the officer. (think bounty hunter/process server)

This wouldn't have all that much more legal exposure than current non resident ccw permit programs.

The legal requirement for Leo status requires a picture ID not a badge.

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  #88  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:44 AM
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Just something to think about, many police officers in NYC live in new jersey and cllaim nj residency.... So there are non resident leo out there.. Residency in the state of employment is not a typical requirement.... And for federal law of is not a factor in determining elagability under HR218
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  #89  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by nick View Post
Because you don't become a LEO by virtue of training and a degree. You become a LEO by virtue of, while being an ordinary citizen, being designated to fight crime and uphold peace, and as such granted the relevant powers. It's up to whomever grants you those powers to demand training if you're given the job.

Just like it's up to the Board to demand training and certain credentials before issuing you the license to practice medicine.

Another example: when you're designated a soldier, someone whose job is to defend this country and its Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, you don't become one by the virtue of your training and graduation from Basic. You become one because you were selected, or you volunteered, to perform this specific duty of a citizen. Training is provided to make you more effective at that.
You can spin it any way you want, but being a cop or a soldier does require special training. There are recruiting standards one must meet to get hired or selected, and, once you have the training, standard you must withhold, or you get fired or discharged.
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  #90  
Old 11-09-2009, 8:58 AM
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you're missing the point. You would be no more than an on call officer that never gets called. You have the right to carry concealed, and no more unless you are acting in your official capacity. 99.9999999% of the time you are an off duty officer waiting to get called into duty who just happens to be out of his jurisdiction as well.
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  #91  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:00 AM
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Which is why a dentist can be comissioned a major without ocs or ROTC training?

There is nothing magic about Leo status....

It has come to be seen that way... But In reality it is not.

You know what with the 14th ammendment and all

Last edited by Kestryll; 11-18-2009 at 10:16 AM..
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  #92  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdabroxx View Post
you're missing the point. You would be no more than an on call officer that never gets called. You have the right to carry concealed, and no more unless you are acting in your official capacity. 99.9999999% of the time you are an off duty officer waiting to get called into duty who just happens to be out of his jurisdiction as well.
And that sounds like a fantastic straw position. Buying a title. Sounds very medieval Europe to me.
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  #93  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:09 AM
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I agree a1c

It IS very mideval European

We should have never created a system of lords and vassles, or different classes of citizens with different rights

But we did....

And now we have to figure out how we serfs can get a landed gentry's right to carry a sword....
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  #94  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:15 AM
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I live in a county that issues, so I don't have that much incentive to purchase credentials, but it would be nice to know that they are valid anywhere I travel.

My concern would be that the LEOs that I live next door would probably think scam if I flashed an out of state credential, I would probably take a trip to jail just to sort things out and that would not be cool.
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  #95  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.

Earned?

Most departments and agencies hire family or friends of current Officers. Head back east, and you'll find it's a lot more of a Family business, then a depiction of the actual community being served.
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  #96  
Old 11-09-2009, 9:41 AM
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Earned?

Most departments and agencies hire family or friends of current Officers. Head back east, and you'll find it's a lot more of a Family business, then a depiction of the actual community being served.
So because corruption and nepotism reign in some areas of the country, it's OK to follow a similar model?

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Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
And now we have to figure out how we serfs can get a landed gentry's right to carry a sword....
The way we need to figure this out is not through some loophole which would be quickly closed by the same legislators who accidentally opened it. That's a lame, dubious short-term solution that would anyway only benefit an elite which could buy their way in (plus, running a municipality is not exactly a picnic).

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  #97  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:03 AM
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And that sounds like a fantastic straw position. Buying a title. Sounds very medieval Europe to me.
Yep. As is the situation we've created as a society.
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  #98  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdabroxx View Post
you're missing the point. You would be no more than an on call officer that never gets called. You have the right to carry concealed, and no more unless you are acting in your official capacity. 99.9999999% of the time you are an off duty officer waiting to get called into duty who just happens to be out of his jurisdiction as well.
There are MANY details involved in an idea like this that would make it sink or swim and most would be technicalities. Politicians and LEO's do not like technicalities when they are used "against" them. I imagine that it could be crafted to balance on the razor's edge of actually being book-legal but once "the plan" is figured out by the powers that be, the politics will begin and "Freedom City" will likely be quickly turned into a ghost town.

If it was possible to do this in a lasting, solid, legal, thumb-your-nose at Nancy Pelosi type of way...I would definately take a look at it.
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  #99  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
So because corruption and nepotism reign in some areas of the country, it's OK to follow a similar model?

The way we need to figure this out is not through some loophole which would be quickly closed by the same legislators who accidentally opened it. That's a lame, dubious short-term solution that would anyway only benefit an elite which could buy their way in (plus, running a municipality is not exactly a picnic).
Yep... those credentials issued by nepotism and corruption are just as valid under federal law as those that are 'earned' through service to the state(king)...

I think I've heard the term 'loophole' bandied about before.... seems to be the mantra of the people who recognize that something is totally legal even if it does not sit with their personal ideology/agenda.

Yes the legislature could i(n theory) 'crack down' on this... it would have to occur at a federal level... essentially imposing harsher levels of qualification for consideration under the LEOSA... which would be VERY hard to get the legislature to pass.. since many many states would not meet the new 'qualifications'.... so I don't see that as a overly likely outcome.

Let me make this perfectly plain. I am NOT suggesting that we all run out and buy a municipality... that adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary.

There are plenty of townships/towns out there who can issue the credentials we want and $$$ talks... particularly to areas with a mean income of around 14k per year.... a cash injection of 10 million to a community of 2500 is a substantial enough bit of cash that they can't easily dismiss the probability.

Ok... some people may think its 'dubious' or a 'scam' but the fact of the matter is the law is the law... they wrote it.. they make us follow it... and what is proposed here is LEGAL... and even in a worst case scenario where the opposition rallies the troops and shuts us down we'd get a few years of legal CCW.... which is a few years of keeping our family safe... AND it could easily pave the way for national reciprocity of CCW permits....

Legal is legal.... CCW permits are just for that 1 time in 100 where you get hassled.... and even with one of those you don't always beat the ride... but with valid LEO credentials you WILL beat the rap.... the same was true for all our OLL endevors.

Look, I'm not saying this sort of thing is an ideal situation... but we ALREADY have an elite (LEO's) who get privilages that the rest of us are denied.

This is simply a broad lowering of the barriers to entry into that protected class (which shouldn't exist in the first place)

I dislike that this is nececary to exercise our rights... however, it IS legal... and it DOES allow us to exercise those rights....

Heck, I'd love to run detachable mags in my full featured AR.... but the MMG I have on it is simply the price I have to pay to legally do what I need to have the means to protect my family..... and now that I live and go to school in NYC, I have ZERO recourse or ability to have those means... they all live back in 'free' California...

I was originally just looking into this for personal and selfish reasons... but I think it could be a large and significant step forward in the advancement of the 2A in America.
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  #100  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:14 AM
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You can spin it any way you want, but being a cop or a soldier does require special training. There are recruiting standards one must meet to get hired or selected, and, once you have the training, standard you must withhold, or you get fired or discharged.
Nope, it doesn't. Ever heard of draft? The training in question isn't what designates one a LEO or a soldier. In case of LEOs, officially deputizing/granting them the relevant fraction of the powers of their government does. In case of soldiers, designating them soldiers is what does the trick. Many agencies simply require training as a condition of employment (just like I'd want to see a degree in CS for a person applying for a developer position. However, if I'm the owner of the company, I can hire a gardener who's never seen a computer as a developer, if I so please).

The military routinely commissions the specialsits it needs without them having to go through any officer training.
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  #101  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:17 AM
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This isn't about serving as a LEO, arresting people, flashing badges, playing pretend, etc. It's about following the existing framework, under fed law, to gain CCW where many of us are otherwise unable.

It's a neat idea and, while I'm not sure it will work, I am sure the first guy to test it in court is in for one hell of a ride.
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  #102  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:18 AM
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That being said, what Carona did was to issue it to those he wanted favors from. If a place is "shall issue", and sees its duty in granting the citizens the status/rights they should've had in the first place, if it wasn't for the feudal system we've introduced into our society, how is that corrupt? I'd argue that the other way around is corrupt, and just because it's been going on for a long time doesn't make it any more legitimate. Well, it does in some eyes, it seems.
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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  #103  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by berto View Post
This isn't about serving as a LEO, arresting people, flashing badges, playing pretend, etc. It's about following the existing framework, under fed law, to gain CCW where many of us are otherwise unable.

It's a neat idea and, while I'm not sure it will work, I am sure the first guy to test it in court is in for one hell of a ride.
Yep. I wasn't around for the OLL debate, but from what I still hear on the subject in some gun stores, etc., I'd imagine the debate was somewhat similar. Loophole vs. following the letter of the law; who wants to be the test case, etc. The test case part is valid though. In case of OLLs, the person willing to be the potential test case had the means to hire decent defense, if needed. After all, just because you do something legal doesn't mean you won't be prosecuted for it, to scare the rest who might dare. Kind of like what my ancestors did with their serfs (the similarities are quite striking, but then, similar problems call for similar solutions, right? ).
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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  #104  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:34 AM
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I am only reading the first couple of posts, but I just want to let you know that this is a bad idea. Minimal screening, and pay for a LEO credential? And give out something that works as a CCW? This is one of those ideas that sounds too good to be true, and would likely end up being used as a really big stick that the other side beats us with. Work with the system, and try to change it legally. Don't try an end-run that can set us up for a major setback if (when) it blows up. What happens when some John Wayne wannabe uses his credential to take a gun someplace he shouldn't, and whips it out to show off? Or somebody uses their LEO ID to pull over a driver that pissed them off and starts yelling and screaming at them. Or worse? There are already enough nutballs out there doing it with novelty badges. Do you really want to start something like that, have it accociated with the pro-gun movement, and then have a whackjob go postal? I see nothing but potential down sides here.
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  #105  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:47 AM
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http://www.alberttexas.com/home/
$595,000 buys this texas ghost town.

The town can hire LEO "contractors" to provide enforcement within the confines of the town only. The term of the contract is for 32 days. $750.00 is charged up front for background investigation purposes. The 32 day contract pays exactly $1.00. At the end of the contract, the contractor is given the opportunity to "retire".

Now, the contractor can travel the country as an offically retired LEO from Albert, Texas.

800 x $750 = $600,000 to purchase
200 x $750 = $150,000 to move in modular home, 1 yr wages for the city "administrator" to process "contractor" applications, and necessary supplies to issue paperwork etc.

After the yearly administrator wage is met, all additional monies go into a legal defense fund.

The "owner" of Albert could be an offshore corporation?

Just random thoughts. It seems like there would be fewer opportunities for individuals to do stupid things if A) a thorough background check is done, B) they understand that they are RETIRED and have no official capacity.
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  #106  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Peter Venkman View Post
Those are to be earned, not bought.
...umm, no...just ask FORMER OC Sherrif Mike Carona...
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  #107  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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This seems like an interesting idea, though I have reservations. I agree that most people with these credentials have worked pretty hard to get them. If you start some business selling these credentials, you may make a bunch of sales, but sooner or later someone will see what's going on and new legislation will be enacted....If you did this and hooked up 4 or 5 of your buddies this might fly, but as soon as you throw it out there for the masses.....sooner or later something will happen, someone with one of these credentials does something stupid, even just shooting their mouth off to the wrong person or the wrong time. Somebody gets it in there head to go and "act" like a cop. Some anti gets wind of this and decides something must be done, enter politicos and voila it all goes away.

That said I'd love to be able to carry in all 50 states, own high cap mags, buy guns off the roster......but I'm skeptical of the long term viability of this.
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  #108  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:56 AM
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Let me know when LEAs start hiring cops that have not gone through the academy.
http://jobs.spb.ca.gov/wvpos/more_info.cfm?recno=118981

Getting a POST 832 certificate takes about 1 week.

Last edited by bubbagump; 11-09-2009 at 10:59 AM..
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  #109  
Old 11-09-2009, 11:01 AM
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As I recall from my reading of HR218, to be CCW qualified nation-wide as a retired LEO requires one to have served on active duty for a minimun of 15 years, anything less will not qualify under HR 218. Also, this is a really stupid idea, and as a 35 plus year local LEO retiree, I resent the idea of people "gaming" the system just to be able to carry a gun concealed.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
http://www.alberttexas.com/home/
$595,000 buys this texas ghost town.

The town can hire LEO "contractors" to provide enforcement within the confines of the town only. The term of the contract is for 32 days. $750.00 is charged up front for background investigation purposes. The 32 day contract pays exactly $1.00. At the end of the contract, the contractor is given the opportunity to "retire".

Now, the contractor can travel the country as an offically retired LEO from Albert, Texas.

800 x $750 = $600,000 to purchase
200 x $750 = $150,000 to move in modular home, 1 yr wages for the city "administrator" to process "contractor" applications, and necessary supplies to issue paperwork etc.

After the yearly administrator wage is met, all additional monies go into a legal defense fund.

The "owner" of Albert could be an offshore corporation?

Just random thoughts. It seems like there would be fewer opportunities for individuals to do stupid things if A) a thorough background check is done, B) they understand that they are RETIRED and have no official capacity.

No, no, and NO! Has anyone here even read the text of the Act?

‘‘(c) As used in this section, the term ‘qualified retired law
enforcement officer’ means an individual who—
...
‘‘(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as
a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more;
or
‘‘(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing
any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a
service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;
‘‘(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement
plan of the agency;

-gcrtkd
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dick Thomas View Post
As I recall from my reading of HR218, to be CCW qualified nation-wide as a retired LEO requires one to have served on active duty for a minimun of 15 years, anything less will not qualify under HR 218. Also, this is a really stupid idea, and as a 35 plus year local LEO retiree, I resent the idea of people "gaming" the system just to be able to carry a gun concealed.
I resent LEO's being "more equal" than anybody else.
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To me Law Enforcement are guilty until proven innocent.
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Originally Posted by barrage View Post
Over reaction to non-crimes by State loyalists. If they keep up their heavy handed crap, soon it'll be a better gamble to shoot at cops before they even start bothering you considering the amount of time they're willing to put you in prison for if you cooperate.

Seems like that pendulum is about to shift.
Is this your Calguns?

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Old 11-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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See below:
Sec. 926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified retired law enforcement officer' means an individual who--

`(1) retired in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer, other than for reasons of mental instability;

`(2) before such retirement, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest;

`(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more; or`

(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

`(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement plan of the agency;

`(5) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;

`(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

etc etc etc
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:06 AM
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Ok, replace "retired" with "unpaid administrative leave"
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  #114  
Old 11-09-2009, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by berto View Post
This isn't about serving as a LEO, arresting people, flashing badges, playing pretend, etc. It's about following the existing framework, under fed law, to gain CCW where many of us are otherwise unable.

It's a neat idea and, while I'm not sure it will work, I am sure the first guy to test it in court is in for one hell of a ride.
If a person is under contract with a city to provide law enforcement services, why would a court have a problem as long as you meet requirements under that city's and state's laws?
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Thomas View Post
... I resent the idea of people "gaming" the system just to be able to carry a gun concealed.
Personally I resent the idea that politicians have "gamed the system" to infringe upon what the US Constitution considers a fundamental, pre-existing, granted-by-creator, human right.

I resent the notion that - in such a context - following applicable laws to bring about a desired result is considered "gaming the system" by anyone laying claim to rationality.

I respect law enforcement officers and the incredible risks that some of them encounter. I also know that some are desk polishers, foot-draggers and political appointees/hires who hardly bring honor to the badge or uniform. Some are well trained, I know many who are not, in any reasonable sense of the words "well" and "trained". I resent any of them thinking that they are "special people" with "special earned rights" when it comes to firearms.

I resent LEO who see most of the public as anything but their natural ally, as most of the public are.

I like liberty, and I don't mind defending it in any rational way. The first duty of ANY law enforcement official is to defend and uphold the Constitution. Anyone who spouts any BS about "following orders" doesn't deserve a badge or anyone's respect, as ANY amount of training they've had is effectively meaningless given that level of intellectual corruption.

I've had it with the hand-wringing.

Last edited by dansgold; 11-09-2009 at 12:47 PM..
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  #116  
Old 11-09-2009, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kermit315 View Post
I resent LEO's being "more equal" than anybody else.

This is a great debate! It mirrors the great line we often see as "discretionary" and "equal".

Dick, we all much respect your service. Frankly, you don't fit in my pocket, and you're not cheap enough to hire you.

If the 2nd Amendment was properly enjoyed, this conversation wouldn't really be necessary. I don't think anyone here is looking at this with hungry eyes at having arrest powers. No one here wants to run DOJ /EPIC/NCIC/DMV snoopy sear ches on their neighbors.

It just so happens that the very same infrastructure in place that you resent the rest of the non-LEO world as "gaming" is what creates fear within the general public.

If it takes LEOSA getting revisited for people to take notice, so be it I think the fear, uncertainty and doubt you want to share and spread within a law enforcement community is easily ameliorated by a proper background check and interview.

Cheers!
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  #117  
Old 11-09-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
If a person is under contract with a city to provide law enforcement services, why would a court have a problem as long as you meet requirements under that city's and state's laws?
It's not a court that worries me but a DA with an agenda. The test case may or may not be easily won but it will cost money.
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  #118  
Old 11-09-2009, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by geeknow View Post
...umm, no...just ask FORMER OC Sherrif Mike Carona...
Guys, it's one thing when the media and a tired old hag now acting as appointed Sheriff uses this line.

It's another when we as a community use the same tactics and quotes the bad guys use to bash each other.

It has been proven in court with large amounts of testimony that the far and wide vast majority of CCW holders in the County of Orange never met the Sheriff nor contributed to his campaign.

By implying that CCW's issued in OC were given as a function of political favor is to completely bash the OC ccw community as a whole, and buy into the arguments of the bad guys.

Let's not do that.
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  #119  
Old 11-09-2009, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kermit315 View Post
I resent LEO's being "more equal" than anybody else.
Agreed.

While do I appreciate the work that those in law enforcement do on a daily basis I greatly resent the implication that I'm somehow a lesser person due to the uniform they wear. And as long as that attitude and/or mindset is allowed to persist and grow all the bad things that go with it will continue to occur.

When you are ready to come back down to reality let the rest of us know so that we can welcome you back to the human race.
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  #120  
Old 11-09-2009, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ladyfox View Post
Still, on a deeper level I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it would be nice to have a CCW that covers the entire country.
There is one...it's called 2A and its free. (Not available in stores, available June 2010).

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