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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

View Poll Results: How much would you pay for Law Enforcement Credentials
$0 I don't want them at any price 373 15.34%
$100 305 12.55%
$500 716 29.45%
$1000 497 20.44%
$1500 102 4.20%
$2000 202 8.31%
$5000 125 5.14%
$10000 49 2.02%
$Whatever it takes I'll take out a second mortgage 62 2.55%
Voters: 2431. You may not vote on this poll

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  #521  
Old 11-28-2009, 10:25 PM
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Well, please understand that I am relying heavily upon information relayed to me by LEO family members, and personal research to corroborate some of the important particulars.

There may be aspects this current practice that I do not fully understand, some big legal 'gotcha' along the way. The process for certifying firearms carry for this type of officer seems to vary widely, for instance from agency to agency. I am certain that some of these would not pass legal muster for acceptable nationwide LEO credentials. Others seem to be fully LEOSA compliant.

Even so, it certainly appears that many agencies nationwide already practice something very similar to what we have been discussing.
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  #522  
Old 11-28-2009, 10:49 PM
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If the agency grants statutory powers of arrest and allows (or even better, requires) off duty carry for all "Special Reserve Officers", we should be good to go under LEOSA. It might be good in a contract of this nature to include a carve out stating something like "As a policy of this agency, Special Reserve Officers making arrests while off duty, that prevent neither death nor great bodily harm, will be subject to immediate termination." This may help with the concern of "cowboy" cops.
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  #523  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berto View Post
Ron,

Is it moral to personally benefit from a law that denies the same benefits to the vast majority of the populace?

Do you buy off roster handguns? Mags over 10 rounds? CCW out of state on LEO credentials?

Thanks,

berto
He already answered this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Yes, and when I retire in a few years I won't be able to anymore.

Do I like it, No.

Do I think it is fair, No.

Do I think it is unfair that non-LEOs are screwed over by the regs, Yes.

Do things need to change, Yes.
I think our debate about the morality of LEO privileges (both for existing LEOs, like Ron, and those that aspire, like us) has gone as far as it ever will.

Though both sides have made it clear that we'd prefer just reform, the laws on the books are the laws on the books. Ron will enjoy his liberties just as surely as we'll move this plan forward in an attempt to enjoy ours. By exercising the freedoms afforded to us under the law, neither side is doing anything fraudulent or immoral. And if either side believes otherwise, we're all entitled to our opinions. Can't we all just get along?
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  #524  
Old 11-29-2009, 8:27 AM
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http://www.bvonsports.com/2009/10/30...w-enforcement/

Quote:
Shaquille O'Neal has made no secret of his interest in going in to law enforcement after his NBA career. He spends his off-seasons hanging out with 5-0 in Los Angeles as a reserve L.A. Port police officer, and in Miami, he serves as a Miami Beach reserve officer.

Shaq was even a part of the Maricopa County Sheriff Posse in Arizona until his badge was confiscated for going after Kobe in a freestyle rhyme.

And now that Shaq is in Cleveland, he's looking to get down with the boys in blue there as well. According to the Associated Press, Shaq applied to become a special deputy with the Cuyahoga County Sheriff. If his application is approved, he would require 36 hours of police training and take an Ohio police exam. If he completes the training and passes the test, he will be deputized.

But what does a special deputy do? Not much, but just enough. The title allows him to carry a firearm and make arrests, but he would not be a paid formal employee. That's right, he's being a cop for the fun of it!
Can anyone confirm that Shaq actually went through the ENTIRE LA Reserve academy? I find this hard to believe as he was playing for the Lakers at the time he joined LAPD.
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  #525  
Old 11-29-2009, 8:30 AM
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Topic of this thread: Can we use the current laws, as written, to receive LEO status from an as-of-yet to be identified LEA. The purpose of which is to give upstanding citizens a way to exercise their 2A rights to carry a concealed weapon.

Can we at least agree that it is a good thing for citizens to be able to exercise their 2A rights? Can we also agree that following the letter of the law is not a bad thing?
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  #526  
Old 11-29-2009, 8:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
Topic of this thread: Can we use the current laws, as written, to receive LEO status from an as-of-yet to be identified LEA. The purpose of which is to give upstanding citizens a way to exercise their 2A rights to carry a concealed weapon.

Can we at least agree that it is a good thing for citizens to be able to exercise their 2A rights? Can we also agree that following the letter of the law is not a bad thing?
Agreed! I'm not saying much here but have been following the discussion closely. This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on Calguns and based on the number of views this thread is getting, others think so too.

To avoid getting this thread locked down lets keep this on topic and ignore the off topic discussions.
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  #527  
Old 11-29-2009, 8:59 AM
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Im only going to say this once, be careful about bashing any members here.

The LE forum has very strict rules about what you can talk about. This was set in place to make sure members could ask a COP a question without having to go down to the Dept or calling them on the phone, or stopping them on the street.

Its wasnt made to get something off your chest about a ticket or anything else.

That said this forum is for 2nd amendment talk, it is a place where all members can go to talk. If a member breaks the rules in any of the forums they can be asked to leave.

So Im going to delete a few replies and hope you can put down the rum and cokes before making anyone feel unwelcome here at CGs.
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  #528  
Old 11-29-2009, 9:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
http://www.bvonsports.com/2009/10/30...w-enforcement/



Can anyone confirm that Shaq actually went through the ENTIRE LA Reserve academy? I find this hard to believe as he was playing for the Lakers at the time he joined LAPD.
Very good find.
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  #529  
Old 11-29-2009, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollabillz View Post
He already answered this...

I think our debate about the morality of LEO privileges (both for existing LEOs, like Ron, and those that aspire, like us) has gone as far as it ever will.
Oops, I missed his response and apologize for the further questions in the same vein. Benefiting from an unjust system and calling those seeking to do the same, and in the same manner, immoral and unfit reeks.

I'm not convinced the plan will work but it's worth pursuing.
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  #530  
Old 11-29-2009, 2:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansgold View Post
I've done a little research based upon some information given to me by LEO family members. I am told that this type of thing is actually common in many jurisdictions for the appointment of "Special Technical Officer", "Special Patrolman", "Provisional Reserve Officer", "Cigarette Tax Enforcement Officer" (huh?!?) and all sorts of different safety officers, special enforcement teams, armorers, etc.

Generally it works something like this:
  • The department (or the D.A. or Sheriff, etc.) for whatever reason wants to have someone appointed as an LE.
  • There are provisions in Local, County, State and Federal law which allow 100% discretionary exemptions for POST or other training requirements.
  • They appoint the person to the position, paid or unpaid.
  • They use whatever provisions are legal within their jurisdiction to certify this person to lawfully carry weapons as a part of their "duty assignment", even if their assignment is to "be on standby in case of civil unrest"

This is being DONE now nationwide. The only thing being proposed here is to expand the application of existing law and practice.
I've been rolling this post over in my mind for a bit now. Basically, the entire thrust, discussions, and direction of this thread ARE ALREADY HAPPENING. The last remaining item is identifying 1 or more LEAs that will work with us.

Let us see if we can reach a consensus on this question: will it be better to work with an established agency that is bound to POST regs through their association with POST; or will we be in a better position in finding an Incorporated city that does not have any relationship with POST and thus is not bound to their regs?

I have also had a nagging question in the back of my mind regarding how these credentials are being issued and still remaining compliant with section 1007. Here is that section for review:

Quote:
BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 2. COMMISSION ON PEACE OFFICER STANDARDS AND TRAINING
ARTICLE 1. GENERAL
This database is current through 11/13/09 Register 2009, No. 46
1007. Reserve Officer Minimum Training Standards and Waiver of Training Requirements for Modules B and/or C.

(a) Every reserve peace officer shall be trained in conformance with the following requirements:

(1) Level I Reserve Peace Officers:

(A) Minimum Training Requirement. Every Level I reserve peace officer [defined in PAM, section H-1-2(a)], before being assigned to duties which include the exercise of peace officer powers, shall satisfactorily complete the training requirements of the Regular Basic Course or its equivalents (PAM, section D-1- 3).
The operative wording is "...before being assigned to duties which include the exercise of peace officer powers...". Quite obviously, people are being put in a position ( "Special Technical Officer", "Special Patrolman", "Provisional Reserve Officer", "Cigarette Tax Enforcement Officer" ) without ever "...being assigned... It is a kind of limbo that stays within the letter of the law and allows for flexibility in retaining someone so as to be an official Law Enforcement Officer (and naturally enjoying the benefits thereof, such as CCW), without having to go through the training. This is exactly what we have been seeking in this thread. I just never dreamed that LEAs are actively engaging in this practice in an ongoing modus operandi.
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  #531  
Old 11-29-2009, 2:19 PM
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Now, where is AJAX22, The Right People, and CGF on this?

Let's roll!
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  #532  
Old 11-29-2009, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
Now, where is AJAX22, The Right People, and CGF on this?

Let's roll!
I just ordered a new cell phone (old one was not coming back to life).... should be here in a couple days...

Right now I'm putting togeather a list of choice municipalities/agencies to phone.

I'm going to focus outside of CA for now, but if anyone knows of a local agency which may be amenable please let me know.

If anyone knows any out of state mayors or chief of police who they can reach out and touch, please do so... PM me and I'll give you my cell phone number so you can have them call me and I can help pitch them on it.

right now the most important thing we are missing is a willing CLEO or Mayor.... once we have some official support we can dig into the law of that municipality to see if it will work out....

Even if it doesn't pan out in one place, having the ability to name drop when cold calling other municipalities may help out considerably.

"We were originally going to do this in XXXX with chief XXXX but the state ordinance didn't allow for it so we're approaching you with it... etc."
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  #533  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
Let us see if we can reach a consensus on this question: will it be better to work with an established agency that is bound to POST regs through their association with POST; or will we be in a better position in finding an Incorporated city that does not have any relationship with POST and thus is not bound to their regs?
As far as I know, every CA city is tied into POST.....
.
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  #534  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansgold View Post
I've done a little research based upon some information given to me by LEO family members. I am told that this type of thing is actually common in many jurisdictions for the appointment of "Special Technical Officer", "Special Patrolman", "Provisional Reserve Officer", "Cigarette Tax Enforcement Officer" (huh?!?) and all sorts of different safety officers, special enforcement teams, armorers, etc.
Course it is... how do you think the Mayor or Police Chief award their buddies for contributing to their campaign?
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  #535  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
As far as I know, every CA city is tied into POST.....
.
Amador City, the smallest Incorporated city in California, does not appear on the POST website's list of participating agencies: http://www.post.ca.gov/Resources/law...gency_page.asp

I have not parsed the entire (480 I think) list of CA Incorporated cities against this list, so I am not sure how many more might not be participating in POST.
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  #536  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post

Amador City, the smallest Incorporated city in California, does not appear on the POST website's list of participating agencies[/url]
Does Amador City have its own PD, or contract with the Sheriff or CHP??
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  #537  
Old 11-29-2009, 4:35 PM
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Here is the list of POST participating cities: http://www.post.ca.gov/Resources/law...ncy_page.asp#C

Here is the list of Incorporated CA cities: http://california.hometownlocator.co...tes/cities.cfm

Colma Town is Incorporated and not on the POST list also.
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  #538  
Old 11-29-2009, 5:01 PM
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Had an idea after a short exchange via PM with one of the members... It might not be a bad idea to throw togeather a website which outlines exactly what we are proposing...

Have two polls on it to gauge $$$ levels nation wide and participation rates as well as a news letter sign up sheet so if/when we get a bite we can announce it to all the interested parties automatically.

It would throw a decent amount of legitimacy towards this project to be able to have a website to point at.
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  #539  
Old 11-29-2009, 5:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX22 View Post
Had an idea after a short exchange via PM with one of the members... It might not be a bad idea to throw togeather a website which outlines exactly what we are proposing...

Have two polls on it to gauge $$$ levels nation wide and participation rates as well as a news letter sign up sheet so if/when we get a bite we can announce it to all the interested parties automatically.

It would throw a decent amount of legitimacy towards this project to be able to have a website to point at.
Excellent idea.
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  #540  
Old 11-29-2009, 5:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Does Amador City have its own PD, or contract with the Sheriff or CHP??
I don't think Amador City has its own PD, but Colma Town has its own.

Here is my list of Incorporated, no POST listing, and has its own PD:

Colma
Anderson
Brisbane
Hughson
Lathrop

That is through "L", so I am sure that there are more in the bottom half if someone else wants to do some research. I need to get some reloading done.
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  #541  
Old 11-29-2009, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
Originally Posted by AJAX22
Had an idea after a short exchange via PM with one of the members... It might not be a bad idea to throw togeather a website which outlines exactly what we are proposing...

Have two polls on it to gauge $$$ levels nation wide and participation rates as well as a news letter sign up sheet so if/when we get a bite we can announce it to all the interested parties automatically.

It would throw a decent amount of legitimacy towards this project to be able to have a website to point at.

Excellent idea.
+1

A website with polling numbers and active traffic counter is a great idea.
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  #542  
Old 11-29-2009, 8:59 PM
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After reading every page of this long long thread I must add some comments, to address some of the serious misconceptions that I have seen here:

Point 1: What AJAX is proposing has been going on for a long long time

This practice of using various "reserve", "honorary", "constable", "special deputy" positions as means of CCWing has been going on for a very long time. Remember, widespread shall-issue is quite a new phenomenon in the US. But the need to carry a gun, especially by the rich and VIPs, is not new. It is old. And these "rich and VIPs" that I'm referring to are people who find ways to get what they need / want. There have been two historical systems for CCW before shall-issue: the first is the obvious "we'll ignore it for special people" system, which has been around for a long time and is still around in various circumstances and locations.

The second system is this set of "special reserve" laws that seem to exist in every state.

Do you really think that rich people in Chicago have no means of self-defense in that dangerous city? I don't know IL law or practice, but I wouldn't be surprised if they got some kind of "reserve officer" status from some small towns around IL that lets them carry in Chicago.

Which brings me to my next point...

Point 2: This isn't a loophole. The various "reserve officer" and "special deputy" laws are on the books for exactly the usage AJAX is proposing

Some posters here are saying stuff about how a badge is "earned" and so on. I won't even get into that. These "reserve officer", "honorary officer", blah blah blah programs, which exist in every state (AFAIK), are specifically designed to allow local law enforcement powers to give people CCWs and other types of gun law exemptions. That's what they are for! Using these laws for their intended purpose is certainly not a loophole! There's no such thing as "earning" these because the legislatures created them specifically to allow someone to get them without "earning" them. No training, no meaningful duties, no other requirements. These laws are CCW / gun law exemption laws.

Why do you think such strange laws happen to exist in every state, if they weren't put there for this purpose? Why would every state need such peculiarities as people who are law enforcement officers, but cannot (generally) make arrests or otherwise enforce laws, and have no (meaningful) duties, are not really paid? What "power" of a LEO is there, aside from making arrests and fighting crime? It's the power to carry a gun.

Point 3: What AJAX is proposing has been widely used by the rich / VIPs for a long time, and post-HR218 it has been even more widely used.

These permits are attractive to the rich / VIPs for several reasons: First, they work in all 50 states, and as we know, the rich and VIPs often visit no-issue states like NY and DC.

Second, these "reserve" positions totally remove nonsense such as worrying about all the weird local regulations out there ("I didn't know hollowpoints are illegal here!").

Third, these are the ultimate stealth CCWs. They are not public records. They don't result in embarrassment when someone does a PRAR. Do you really think that only ~ 1,000 residents of LA, or ~ 0 residents of SF, are VIP enough to have CCWs? Of course not. Plenty of them (some unknown number) have these "stealth" CCWs. There are fourteen billionaires in San Francisco, and none of them have SF-issued CCWs. Do these fourteen billionaires all go around unarmed wherever they go, just like us ordinary Joes? That's ridiculous and impossible. Do you really think that Larry Ellison, or the Waltons, or Donald Bren, or Sheldon Adelson, when they're visiting in NYC and DC, rely on "dial 911" for their personal safety? Of course not.


Casino billionaire Sheldon Adelson - do you think this man is unarmed when he visits non-issue states??

Point 4: the rich / VIPs are probably doing other even whackier things with some of these programs: carrying on airplanes, "special" weapons, and international CCW

Not only can various state chiefs / sheriffs issue LEO credentials, they can even put on endorsements that allow the holder to fly armed on commercial flights. I know that the founder of Front Sight had one of those (it was pulled when people started realizing more about the guy). How many others are out there? I would not be surprised if some rich / VIPs are also using these to carry "special" weapons that the rest of us can't get. Some of these may be used for international carry, as well. I assume that other countries have some form of LEO gun reciprocity, and maybe some of these "reserve" status things can be endorsed for that as well. Do billionaires really have to follow all our mundane gun laws? I don't think so; this is how they can bypass them.

(To be clear, I would not encourage anyone to try to use these "special reserves" programs for the purpose of carrying on commercial flights or getting access to "special" weapons. If it's done right those may be legal but I wouldn't want to do it myself, or encourage anyone else to. I want a CCW because CCW is relevant to my real-world safety. Carrying on commercial flights or carrying a G18 are not relevant to my real-world safety and so I don't want to mess with those areas.)
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  #543  
Old 11-29-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
(To be clear, I would not encourage anyone to try to use these "special reserves" programs for the purpose of carrying on commercial flights or getting access to "special" weapons. If it's done right those may be legal but I wouldn't want to do it myself, or encourage anyone else to. I want a CCW because CCW is relevant to my real-world safety. Carrying on commercial flights or carrying a G18 are not relevant to my real-world safety and so I don't want to mess with those areas.)
If those were able to be acquired, and I got one, I would definitely exercise it. Not so much because I think I'll be attacked on a plane or anything like that, but rather out of convenience. I almost never fly with checked luggage, and I hate the fact that I can't even bring a knife with me on the plane for use at my destination. Being able to just carry a weapon on would be most convenient for someone like me.
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  #544  
Old 11-30-2009, 7:48 AM
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I bring it up again....someone needs to find out how Shaq got his Reserve officer status in LA.

And don't tell me he took classes three nights a week and on Saturday for a year....all while playing for the Lakers.

Dude had a badge, gun, and uniform and was on patrol!
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  #545  
Old 11-30-2009, 8:05 AM
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Originally Posted by The Director View Post
I bring it up again....someone needs to find out how Shaq got his Reserve officer status in LA.

And don't tell me he took classes three nights a week and on Saturday for a year....all while playing for the Lakers.

Dude had a badge, gun, and uniform and was on patrol!
Wasn't he on that reality TV show...celebrity COPs? Or some brain melting crap like that!
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  #546  
Old 11-30-2009, 8:22 AM
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Wasn't he on that reality TV show...celebrity COPs? Or some brain melting crap like that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_&_Famous

Nope, that was Erik Estrada, Latoya Jackson and friends.
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  #547  
Old 11-30-2009, 8:31 AM
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The mechanism obviously exists for this whole thing....

Special reserves program

Quote:
In 1999, Sheriff Lee Baca established a special reserves program. According to the Los Angeles Times, the program was designed to cater to celebrities, executives, star athletes and other "notable persons". Some members of the Sheriff's Department said they were worried that the program would be abused, particularly by those seeking a backdoor way to secure a concealed weapons permit in Los Angeles County. Within a month of Baca swearing in his first new celebrity reserve deputies, one of his recruits, Scott Zacky, had been suspended and relieved of duty for brandishing a firearm in a confrontation outside his Bel-Air home. The program would eventually be suspended. Less than six months later, another member of the special celebrity reserve unit was indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of international money laundering. No well-known celebrities joined the program, and less than 20 little-known wealthy individuals actually participated. It was suspended in November, 2006.
Even though this program was ill fated, Baca had the power and the legal mechanism to grant "special LEO privileges" to a select group of people.

This really pisses me off. We should be able to do this as well, and I know damn well it will turn out far better than his failed scheme.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:37 AM
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From the LA Times Archives....

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Jay Leno, Steven Seagal and a host of other celebrities and prominent people may soon join the ranks of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department as "executive reserves," officials said Thursday.

If the new reservists complete 64 hours of training and pass the department's background check, officials say, they will be given a badge and can carry a gun. Those who do not complete the abbreviated academy course can still join the elite corps as "volunteers," but will not be able to carry a concealed weapon with the department's blessing. Sources say Leno and Seagal will probably opt for the latter.

"There is something to be said for being able to command a Jay Leno or an Oscar De La Hoya for a grand opening," said Dennis Slocumb, president of the Los Angeles County Professional Peace Officers Assn. "But if it's there to reward campaign supporters, then I have a problem with that . . . and if there is no necessity for them to have a gun, then why do they have it?"
64 hours? Are you bull****ting me? Where are all you guys screaming about POST requirements now?

This is definitive proof that a CLEO can and will grant a special reserve status to whomever he pleases with a minimum of training. That's eight days of training, in LASD's case, people.

So what if the program was cancelled. The point is that they did it legally.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:41 AM
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You mean naysayers like this:
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
I have zero respect for that too, but that is being currently addressed thru legal channels.

What is being proposed here is more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach and to me would further encourage corruption and the selling of rights/priviledges by public agencies which is not something I want to support or encourage in the least.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:42 AM
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Seems like the super rich have armed guards more than they carry weapons themselves. No? Which is kind of like having a CCW but paying someone else to take the training and having someone else carry the gun for you.

I can remember an episode of the Howard Stern Show with Donald Trump on as a guest. Somehow they got to the subject of security and Trump said all his guys were retired NYPD. I'm sure they were all allowed to carry in NYC as a result.

Plus they tend to fly on private planes. I'm sure plenty of rich people carry whatever they like onto their chartered Gulfstream.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:42 AM
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Or, perhaps, this analysis:
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
The only LEOs who have 24/7 authority are Level 1 reserves and full-time officers. Level 2 & 3 reserves only have limited authority while on duty and under the supervision of a Level 1 reserve ot full-time officer.

http://www.post.ca.gov/Training/Rese...ficer_Program/

Level III Penal Code sections 830.6(a)(1) and 832.6(a)(2)

Level III reserve officers may perform specified limited support duties, and other duties that are not likely to result in physical arrests, while supervised in the accessible vicinity by a Level I reserve officer or a full-time regular officer. Additionally, Level III reserve officers may transport prisoners without immediate supervision.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
Or, perhaps, this analysis:
We'll never know for sure, but I submit to you that Baca made all his people level I reserves. We know this because at least one of them was charged with brandishing a gun and badge....the implication was he was allowed to have the gun and badge but used them improperly.

Face it. The CLEO waves the post requirements whenever he damned well pleases.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
From the LA Times Archives....



64 hours? Are you bull****ting me? Where are all you guys screaming about POST requirements now?

This is definitive proof that a CLEO can and will grant a special reserve status to whomever he pleases with a minimum of training. That's eight days of training, in LASD's case, people.

So what if the program was cancelled. The point is that they did it legally.
64 hours sounds like they will be required to take the POST PC832 Laws of Arrest course which is a 40 hours, and the POST PC832 Firearms course which is 24 hours and can be taken at numerous community colleges around the state.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
We'll never know for sure, but I submit to you that Baca made all his people level I reserves. We know this because at least one of them was charged with brandishing a gun and badge....the implication was he was allowed to have the gun and badge but used them improperly.

Face it. The CLEO waves the post requirements whenever he damned well pleases.

Hmmm....Baca.....wasn't he the guy who was indicted on federal corruption charges? And yet you say a program like this wouldn't encourage corruption? Ok.....if you say so.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
Hmmm....Baca.....wasn't he the guy who was indicted on federal corruption charges? And yet you say a program like this wouldn't encourage corruption? Ok.....if you say so.

ummmm...no. That was Carona.
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Old 11-30-2009, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
64 hours sounds like they will be required to take the POST PC832 Laws of Arrest course which is a 40 hours, and the POST PC832 Firearms course which is 24 hours and can be taken at numerous community colleges around the state.
This is pure speculation on your part. I am in the entertainment industry. I know many celebrities personally. I know how busy they are, and to even take eight whole days out of some of these people's schedule would be monumental. I will join you in speculation now...

I bet Baca just gave them the credentials and did a cursory background check. I doubt any of them took courses other than a quick orientation...guess why, Sherlock...

because like us, none of them wanted to be LEOs! They just wanted to carry a gun!
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Old 11-30-2009, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
This is pure speculation on your part. I am in the entertainment industry. I know many celebrities personally. I know how busy they are, and to even take eight whole days out of some of these people's schedule would be monumental. I will join you in speculation now...

I bet Baca just gave them the credentials and did a cursory background check. I doubt any of them took courses other than a quick orientation...guess why, Sherlock...

because like us, none of them wanted to be LEOs! They just wanted to carry a gun!

I'm not the the one who posted the info about those celebs taking 64 hours of training. I just thought it was coincidental that 64 hours is exactly the hour requirement for both of the PC 832 courses......but yes....that is purely speculation on my part.....which is why I said "It sounds like......" not "It IS...."
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Old 11-30-2009, 9:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Director View Post
ummmm...no. That was Carona.

Yep...you're right....my mistake.....all the corruption tends to run together after awhile.
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Old 11-30-2009, 9:16 AM
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So, it would seem that we know a lot more about making this happen now than we did a week or two ago:

1. There is a mechanism at the state and local level that allows CLEO to appoint "Special Reserve" credentials

2. These mechanisms have been, and currently are, being used.

3. So far no one has said anything about lawsuits stemming from the "Special Reserve" officers.

4. The "Special Reserve" officers are gaining LEO credentials for the expressed purpose of CCW and NOT arrest powers.

5. This is most likely going on nationwide.

6. Firearms and POST training are not prerequisites to gain the credentials.

7. The "moral issues" arguments go flying out the window as this would seem to be standard operating procedure already.

8. Employment law does not apply since it is an appointment to an unpaid position.

I personally see no difference between having my PD charge $1500 for a "Special Reserve" credential and city hall charging $5000 for a building permit. Both are quite obviously way out of whack compared to actual expenses.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
1. There is a mechanism at the state and local level that allows CLEO to appoint "Special Reserve" credentials
Don't forget the reason Baca is doing it this way. He could, of course, simply issue a CCW instead. However, that would make it subject to a PRAR....
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