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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-24-2005, 7:58 AM
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kenc9 kenc9 is offline
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I have read that private party rifle sales are legal on new guns and C&R's at a Gun Show. If neither party has a license that you may sell a rifle to the other party with no paperwork...Who knows about this?
Thanks, Ken
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2005, 9:17 AM
imported_EOD Guy imported_EOD Guy is offline
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California law requires that all firearms transfers be conducted through a California licensed dealer. There is no exception for gun show sales. There is an exception for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. They may be transferred between individuals without dealer involvement.
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Old 02-26-2005, 4:07 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I just want to be clear, if I (a C&R holder) want to sell a C&R longgun, I can sell it to a non-lincense John Doe without going to a transfer dealer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, maybe not, and No. But let me explain, as we're dealing with some terminalogy issue's here.

First the maybe and maybe not answer.

California does not care if it's C&R only that it's 50 years old or more. The longgun absolutely, without a doubt, MUST be 50 years old. C&R status and C&R license put aside, as those two things do not matter in this state.

So, if it's 50 years old AND the buyer is a resident of California SO FAR you can sell it to that person.

If the buyer is not a resident of California you have to verify if it's a legal purchase for him in his home state. That's why you get all those books of gun laws when you get your C&R.

Now the NO answer.

You can't sell to John Doe. You still have to be sure of his age, be reasonably sure that he doesn't have a disqualifying criminal record (just ask the individual, that's all the state requires! Go figure...), and be sure of his resident status. That's all for the state.

On the Federal side you need all the documentation to be completed in your A/D book.

I know, I just picked on you a bit for this one. When you say you want to sell it to a John Doe I'm taking it that you mean to an anonymous individual. Can't do that on either a state or Federal level. You have to know who your gun went to, and in our gun-grabbing environment here in California you should want to know so that it doesn't come back and haunt you some day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If for some reason I were to buy a C&R handgun out of state on my C&R and didn't register it upon return, would the seller be looking at any liablitly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, an individual can't be liable for something that the individual is not responsible for. Filling out the registration forms and paying the fees is your responsibility. Failure to do so (either willfully or un-intentionally) is probably a criminal offense that could disqualify you for your C&R license as well as future purchases through the DROS system. I don't know, but I wouldn't even come close to giving this gun-grabbing state another excuse to take them away.

John
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Old 02-27-2005, 6:58 AM
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Thats some good info and I didn't feel like I was getting picked on. I should have been more clear but I just used John Doe for the name of my fictional non-licensed individual, not as the guy living under the bridge with a check cashing card for I.D., Thanks for the clarifications,
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Old 02-24-2005, 9:19 AM
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It's cash-n-carry for longarms older than 50 years. No C&R license necessary, though if you have one you do need to appropriately log the aquisition/disposition. This also is not particular to gun shows.

John
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Old 02-26-2005, 2:26 PM
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I understand what you are saying. I just want to be clear, if I (a C&R holder) want to sell a C&R longgun, I can sell it to a non-lincense John Doe without going to a transfer dealer?

Also, I didn't know about the handgun purchase out of state on the C&R until just recently. Very cool, but having gone to shows out of state, the hard part is getting someone to believe we can actually do that. If for some reason I were to buy a C&R handgun out of state on my C&R and didn't register it upon return, would the seller be looking at any liablitly? Not that I would do that, its just a hypothetical.
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Old 02-27-2005, 5:25 AM
imported_EOD Guy imported_EOD Guy is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What's sometimes confusing to people is that the 50 year benchmark used by California for longarm transfers is also one of the benchmarks used by the Feds in determining C&R status of a firearm. Two totally separate issues, used two different ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the California law [Penal Code Section 12078(t)(2)] states that the rifle or shotgun must be a curio or relic as defined in 27CFR 478.11 and must be more than 50 years old.

I understand that most, but not all 50 year old firearms qualify as curio or relic. Some that do not are military firearms that have been modified and are not in "original military configuration" and receivers or barreled actions.
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Old 02-26-2005, 10:44 AM
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Um, correct me if I'm wrong but if you do have a C&R, you are now more restricted than two people with no license when selling C&R guns. If a C&R holder decides to sell a C&R gun to someone with no license, does it not have to go through a dealer? That was my understanding anyway.
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Old 02-26-2005, 12:35 PM
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While California does acknowledge the federal definition of a C&R firearm there really aren't any substantial CA laws particular to that definition in regards to transfers, nor does CA effectively recognize any special privileges for a straight C&R licensee. (these ramblings assume no COE.)

California law does state that longarms older than 50 years can be transferred without going through a dealer. C&R license has no effect on that law. Federal law says that firearm sales to an individual that is a non-resident of the state where the transaction takes place has to be legal in both the state of residency and the state of the transaction.
Therefore, an order-by-phone/mail/internet of a long-gun C&R older than 50 years from out-of-state can legally occur as it's 1) a legal transaction in California and 2) federal laws and regs govern the shipping/transfer of firearms inter-state using a C&R license. All handguns have to go through a dealer regardless of C&R status.

Now, the above is assuming an inter-state transfer where the sale is not made in person. In cases where it's an inter-state transfer and the sale IS made in person (say, a licensee drives to Arizona or Nevada and uses his license to make a purchase) there is an advantage for handgun purchases as C&R handguns are exempt from the drop-test. So if it's a legal handgun in CA, and legal to sell in the other state, it's legal to purchase it there and bring it back. Just remember to register it when you do.

What's sometimes confusing to people is that the 50 year benchmark used by California for longarm transfers is also one of the benchmarks used by the Feds in determining C&R status of a firearm. Two totally separate issues, used two different ways.

John
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Old 02-25-2005, 3:11 PM
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Soon the Socialist may rid of that law. Commeiforya sucks when it comes to guns and owning them. I have heard DOJ agents go undercover and catch people for violations. Those Nazis suck I woudln't even recmmmend registering any of your firearms to those jerks. See why?
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Old 02-24-2005, 8:26 AM
Snorkel Bob Snorkel Bob is offline
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Negative on the new guns, you must have paperwork on them as well. Fill out the 4473 and D.R.O.S.
C&R weapons have another set of rules about them, those should be cash and carry for longarms. But I'm not to up to date on C&R laws
SOmeone will be along shortly with those rules
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2005, 11:12 AM
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Aack! EODGUY, you are correct. Let me pull my foot of my mouth now. Slowjon, go to DoJ FAQ to see what the CA DoJ has to say about this.

John
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2005, 7:58 AM
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kenc9 kenc9 is offline
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I have read that private party rifle sales are legal on new guns and C&R's at a Gun Show. If neither party has a license that you may sell a rifle to the other party with no paperwork...Who knows about this?
Thanks, Ken
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