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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-25-2009, 7:34 PM
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Default 410 pistol legal?

Going out on a limb here, but I'm going to say "not legal"?

Its a very small pistol with two barrels. Shoots a 410 shell. The barrel is about 1 inch longer than the shell. Over under style barrels.

I think the minimum length on shotgun barrels is 18", but a 410 is so small, I'm kinda wondering if that still applies.

Also, the owner of this pistol also thinks it will shoot a .45 round.

It has a single action trigger. When the hammer drops, it alternates between the upper barrel and lower barrel.

A search of "shotgun pistol" turned up about every thread that has anything to do with shotguns.
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Old 09-25-2009, 7:37 PM
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Not legal for the same reason a Taurus Judge is not legal. It is a short barreled shotgun. Minimum barrel length = 18", minimum overall length = 26"
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Old 09-25-2009, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nn3453 View Post
Not legal for the same reason a Taurus Judge is not legal. It is a short barreled shotgun. Minimum barrel length = 18", minimum overall length = 26"
Thats what I thought. I told dude he probably doesn't want to be seen at the range with that thing, although I think it would be fun to shoot.

It has "Texas" stamped on it. I wonder if that is legal there or if it is just an old gun.
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Old 09-25-2009, 7:43 PM
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By the way, thanks for the info.
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  #5  
Old 09-25-2009, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey510 View Post
It has "Texas" stamped on it. I wonder if that is legal there or if it is just an old gun.
Yes, it is probably legal in Texas. it is probably a .45LC/.410 pistol that has a rifled barrel and is legal as a pistol in most states.

CA has an extra restrictive SBS law that considers anything less than 18"/26"OAL to be an SBS if it can fire a fixed shotgun shell.
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  #6  
Old 09-25-2009, 7:49 PM
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Walmart carrys federal 410 handgun loads, does that make it legal?
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Old 09-25-2009, 8:02 PM
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No, it means .410 will not be available for internet orders if AB962 isn't vetoed.
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  #8  
Old 09-25-2009, 9:47 PM
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Keep calling on AB 962 Tell them it is a BAAD idea.
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  #9  
Old 09-26-2009, 5:06 AM
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Bond Arms? If so, they have many different barrels available if you can get them to sell it to you. They don't do CA. sales.
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Old 09-26-2009, 5:29 AM
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That's what I'm thinking. Bond Arms derringer.
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  #11  
Old 09-26-2009, 10:02 AM
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The Taurus Judge is actually not illegal in CA, it just isn't on the approved list. Since it has a rifled barrel, it is a regular handgun. Like shooting snakeshot out of a .38. Snakeshot is a shotgun shell, but is legal beacuse with the rifled barrel, it wasn't designed as a shotgun.
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  #12  
Old 09-26-2009, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
The Taurus Judge is actually not illegal in CA, it just isn't on the approved list. Since it has a rifled barrel, it is a regular handgun. Like shooting snakeshot out of a .38. Snakeshot is a shotgun shell, but is legal beacuse with the rifled barrel, it wasn't designed as a shotgun.
Wrong-O MaryLou.

The Taurus Judge is definitely illegal in California.

Snakeshot is not ammunition designed to be fired from a shotgun. It is simply handgun ammunition designed to fire shot instead of a bullet.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
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Old 09-26-2009, 2:46 PM
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Default in regards to the Taurus Judge being a SBS...

Also, before you say "but, it's a handgun"...

Penal Code 12001
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.
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  #14  
Old 09-26-2009, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Wrong-O MaryLou.

The Taurus Judge is definitely illegal in California.

Snakeshot is not ammunition designed to be fired from a shotgun. It is simply handgun ammunition designed to fire shot instead of a bullet.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.

(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
if it's a rifled barrel and a 410 round happens to fit in it, that doesn't make it a shotgun. it's just californias way of not letting you have one.
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Old 09-26-2009, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesob View Post
if it's a rifled barrel and a 410 round happens to fit in it, that doesn't make it a shotgun. it's just californias way of not letting you have one.
Well, you may feel that way, but LEGALLY, it makes it a short-barrel-shotgun. And the cop who arrests someone for possessing it will charge them with violating California Penal Code 12020 (a). If convicted, they will spend up to a year in State Prison. They would then be a convicted FELON and would be barred from owning ANY firearm for the rest of their life.

So, go right ahead and consider it a pistol, see how that works for you.
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Old 09-26-2009, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesob View Post
if it's a rifled barrel and a 410 round happens to fit in it, that doesn't make it a shotgun. it's just californias way of not letting you have one.
CA's defintion of an SBS does not require the firearm to be a shotgun, just that it be a firearm capable of firing a fixed shotgun shell.

Quote:
12020(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
Note that 12020(c)(1)(A) or (B) do not mention the firearm must be a shotgun.


You might be confusing this with federal law, which does require an SBS to first be a shotgun.
Quote:
Sec. 479.11 Meaning of terms.

Firearm.
(a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;

Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and
made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball
shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall
include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
shotgun shell
Forgetting about the Taurus Judge, you can't purchase or possess a <18" .45LC/.410 barrel for a T/C Contender either. The Roster has nothing to do with this case since the Contender would be a roster-exempt single-shot pistol.


I've been told that you can fire .410s in a .45/70 chambered firearm. If so, the CA definition of an SBS could possibly include 16" .45/70 carbines and a couple .45/70 revolvers if they wanted to push it.
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  #17  
Old 09-26-2009, 8:54 PM
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I notice the section in question doesn't define what a "fixed shotgun shell" is. Does that imply that the existence of shotshell ammunition for handguns now suddenly causes all handguns to fall under the definition of a "short barreled shotgun" under CA law??

More absurd things have been known to happen here...
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Old 09-26-2009, 9:15 PM
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kcbrown, in legal terms, "fixed ammunition" is to differentiate from a muzzle loader and a cartridge arm.
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Old 09-26-2009, 9:27 PM
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One more facet of Kalifornia law that keep The Judge out is that shotguns with a revolving cylinder are illegal.
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Old 09-26-2009, 9:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple K View Post
One more facet of Kalifornia law that keep The Judge out is that shotguns with a revolving cylinder are illegal.
oh, but here is where it gets interesting. A Judge does not meet the CA definition of shotgun, so the shotgun AW regs should not apply to it.

Quote:
12020(c)(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
A judge is not designed to be fired from the shoulder, so it should not fall under the definition of a shotgun.

It does fall under the definition of an SBS, but not of a shotgun.
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Old 09-26-2009, 9:45 PM
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Suppose you only had .45LC in your Judge, I wonder if a LEO would realize what it was.....but it kinda defeats the purpose.
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  #22  
Old 09-27-2009, 5:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G17GUY View Post
Walmart carrys federal 410 handgun loads, does that make it legal?

Since I'm sure that Walmart is out of stock on this, just like everything else, can you provide some info on this? What makes it a "handgun" .410 load? Is it very short or something?

FWIW, I've always thought that a .410 round short enough to fit in a standard .45 Colt chamber would be quite the thing.

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Old 09-27-2009, 9:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Stuff? View Post
Ron-Solo is correct.

The Judge is being sold legally in Ca. It is also an awesome pistol to shoot.
LINK!?! for the love of god, LINK!


On second thought, PM me so I can go first!
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  #24  
Old 09-27-2009, 10:01 AM
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The Taurus Judge is illegal because it has the capacity to accept shotgun shells and is a revolver. It's the revolver part that is what nails it.

On the other hand, your derringer is legal if and only if it has a rifled barrel, and says that it is a .45 caliber pistol. If it says it's a .410 bore shotgun, then it's illegal. If it's a smoothbore, it's illegal.

If it just so happens that shotgun shells are capable of being fired from it, all the better. Either way, it's still a .45 pistol.

I have a Leinad model DD pistol which is much in the same class as the derringer mentioned above. It has two side-by-side 8" barrels; stamped into the side is "CAL .45.". It's designed to take .45 Colt ammunition, but I bet it'd chamber up .45-70 Gov't as well. Anyways, I've been stopped by the cops while transporting this firearm to the range. They ran the serial number and told me to have a nice day.

That said, firing shotgun shells out of something with a rifled barrel is usually a bad idea anyways. Because the rifling causes the wad to spin, centripetal force will cause the charge to spread the moment it exits the barrel. The useful range for something like this is under 5 feet. I've put a couple boxes of shotgun shells through my Leinad, and other than being a fun conversation piece it's functionally useless -- even with .45 ammunition it's wildly inaccurate.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtnap View Post
LINK!?! for the love of god, LINK!


On second thought, PM me so I can go first!

Greedy, ain't ya?

I'm OK with waiting for a link. I'm so broke I can't even pay attention, much less afford one of these. Still, Christmas isn't that far off....

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P.S. I MUCH prefer the name "Public Defender" over "The Judge," btw.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:12 AM
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Well, unless I was on crack and my eyes were decieving me, I saw one for sale at Cold War Shooters in Highland last week, right next to the Ruger LCP. They are not on the list, so they are only available to LE.

and I don't do crack and I just got new glasses..
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:00 AM
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Just because an FFL is selling them as LE-only doesn't confirm that it is not an SBS. FFLs have made mistakes before. I hope they are correct though.
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  #28  
Old 09-27-2009, 11:38 AM
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The Judge is marketed as being able to shoot .45 Colt and a .410 shotgun shell. CA law defines it as a shotgun.
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Old 09-27-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Well, you may feel that way, but LEGALLY, it makes it a short-barrel-shotgun. And the cop who arrests someone for possessing it will charge them with violating California Penal Code 12020 (a). If convicted, they will spend up to a year in State Prison. They would then be a convicted FELON and would be barred from owning ANY firearm for the rest of their life.

So, go right ahead and consider it a pistol, see how that works for you.
uh, i think i said that it was california's way of not letting you have one and never said that under california law that it wasn't a shotgun.
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Old 09-27-2009, 1:06 PM
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Just another badly worded CA law born of ignorance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kcbrown View Post
I notice the section in question doesn't define what a "fixed shotgun shell" is. Does that imply that the existence of shotshell ammunition for handguns now suddenly causes all handguns to fall under the definition of a "short barreled shotgun" under CA law??

More absurd things have been known to happen here...
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Meplat View Post
Just another badly worded CA law born of ignorance.
No, as Army stated in post #13, "Fixed Ammunition" is ammunition in the form of a cartridge, rather than separated into the individual components as used in black powder firearms.
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Old 10-01-2009, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Yes, it is probably legal in Texas. it is probably a .45LC/.410 pistol that has a rifled barrel and is legal as a pistol in most states.

CA has an extra restrictive SBS law that considers anything less than 18"/26"OAL to be an SBS if it can fire a fixed shotgun shell.
The law says "fixed shotgun shell." is there a loophole in that? Why did they say "fixed"? Is there an unfixed configuration that is legal? What does "fixed" mean?

ETA: I guess I should have read the whole thread.
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