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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 06-01-2005, 5:27 AM
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Quote:
Whitmore said that Hayes told deputies after his arrest that he was high on drugs. (The 44-year-old handyman has prior convictions for resisting arrest, battery, public drunkenness and reckless driving, according to court documents.)


Lack of gun discipline by L.A. county sheriffs aside. This is just another example of the courts revolving justice system. The legal system in L.A. has broken down. I feel sorry for the people who live in that sh*thole.
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  #2  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:10 PM
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When I first saw this video my stomach just dropped when I saw the car moving forward as the officers continued to fire.

4 3gun consider how many Mikes and NoShoots with holes you have for many shooters, consider that the course is known ahead of time and static.

Now consider throwing 5 shooters together into a course that they've never seen, are entering from different directions, and the targets are moving dynamically.


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If we try

Quote:
Originally posted by 50 Freak:

As for getting your adrenaline pumping and then shooting. Have you ever tried a 3 gun match. That's the whole idea behind running and gunning. Lots of people think shooting is as simple as putting up a paper target standing in an stance and slowly pumping lead downrange. Not so at all. Try pulling from a holster and doing point shooting. Try engaging a target while you are running with a carbine. Then try calming your heart down and shooting a target 200 yards away. Pretty hard. I can definitely vouch for that.

But in the case of the officers, they were less than 20 feet away and emptying their pistols into the car. Adrenaline or not there is no excuse for missing your target and shooting up other people's houses, not to mention your fellow officers.
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  #3  
Old 06-02-2005, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by maxicon:

Like with the Tasered woman, there's a simple rule when dealing with cops on the street: Do what they tell you. Stop when they say stop, drop it when they say drop it, and sort out right from wrong later. I drum this into my kids any time something like this happens, because I don't want them to be dead or paralyzed from something really stupid.

Lyrics from the funny-because-it's-full-of-truth tune by Afroman - "Because I Got High":

I wasn't gonna run from the cops but I was high, (I'm serious man)
I was gonna pull right over and stop, but I was high
Now I'm a paraplegic, and I know why, (why man)
'cuz I got high
Because I got high
Because I got high
maxicon has a point here...
a buddy of mine was driving his new car through downtown when he got pulled over by 4,5,6 cops cars... all cops had their guns drawn on him. Why? he did nothing wrong, it just so happened that the car he was driving was stolen!
His lesson... never buy a used car from a used car dealership in downtown San Jose.

the SUV becomes a deadly weapon, but 120 rounds is a few cops with itchy trigger fingers emptying their mags.
#1 Solution: BAN SUV's
#2 Solution: limit cops to 5 round mags

but really, what would I have done?
2 or 3 blasts with the shotgun.... these cops need MORE training!

The only people who I feel have a right to sue the PD or city are the residents who's houses got hit with stray bullets.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2005, 7:01 AM
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"If I was standing in front of the car, and guy peels out and drives his car
straight towards me, I'm sorry but I'm gonna start shooting."

What is this going to accomplish? Assuming you hit the driver, the car will probably keep going and hit you and maybe others in the area. In the time it takes you to shoot, you'd be better off trying to jump out of the way.
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2005, 6:18 AM
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I'm wondering if the hapless homeowners in the line of fire whose homes were being shot up could have returned fire, claiming self defense.
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  #6  
Old 06-02-2005, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
But here is some black guy (slightly high from his own admission) driving along minding his own business and next thing he knows he's surrounded by a bunch of cop cars all yelling at him because they think he's a shooter....
Like with the Tasered woman, there's a simple rule when dealing with cops on the street: Do what they tell you. Stop when they say stop, drop it when they say drop it, and sort out right from wrong later. I drum this into my kids any time something like this happens, because I don't want them to be dead or paralyzed from something really stupid.

Lyrics from the funny-because-it's-full-of-truth tune by Afroman - "Because I Got High":

I wasn't gonna run from the cops but I was high, (I'm serious man)
I was gonna pull right over and stop, but I was high
Now I'm a paraplegic, and I know why, (why man)
'cuz I got high
Because I got high
Because I got high
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  #7  
Old 06-02-2005, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charliegone:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-sheriffshootout-05...ll=la-home-headlines


They could've used less force as in taking the tires out, etc, even used less bullets, but jeez man 120 bullets? They didn't even shoot that many times at the guys with the aks that robbed that bank in hollywood...
North Hollywood and the fact that they had been in Compton is probably why they all had itchy trigger fingers?

plus, it did look like they shot out the front left tire, but it's not that clear in the video.

I've heard "successful" chasses, arrests and kills done the right way...

for 1...
San Jose/Santa Clara boarder on Stephens Creek and Cronin near the Nissan Dealership back in 2000? I think? Bank robbers drove all the way down from Mountain View or something off 280?... cops surrounded him (or them) and shot him (or them) dead. Sorry, I couldn't remember if it was 1 or more guys? But it didn't really make the front page of the news. My ex- __PD roommate told me about it first hand. + it happened 8 houses down from where I was living at the time.
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  #8  
Old 06-01-2005, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 50 Freak:
Being a LEO is a hard job and I personally wouldn't want to do it, especially for the crap pay they get.
You forgot about their million-dollar-plus retirement plans:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> cop can work for 25 yrs or less,
<LI> ... can retire in very early 50s
<LI> ... with at least 90% salary
<LI> ... retirement index to inflation
<LI> ... comes w/healthcare paid
<LI> ... retirement base salary includes OT[/list]
Plus they get OT and all sortsa cushy hours so they can run side bizzes (say, 10hrs x 4 days w/alternating 3 & 4 days off).

With a 30 yr projected retirement lifespan, this means there has to be over $1+ million per cop in the bank for that cop when he retires - more, if you assume conservative avg investment growth.

How's YOUR unmatched 401K??


Bill W.
San Jose
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  #9  
Old 06-01-2005, 10:35 AM
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True, but consider the lower pay they get compared to the private sector. More opportunity to make better money pushing paper than taking down crack heads.

And the worst thing I get is a papercut, whereas they have to work with a target painted on their backs. Not worth it in my book.
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  #10  
Old 06-01-2005, 6:32 PM
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I'll back the LEOs in this case.
The guy only had to pull over. But why did
he lead the cops on car chase and then
peel off after pulling over? You just don't
do that regardless of guilt. If some guy peeled
out in front of me during a traffic stop, I'll be
pumping 120 rounds too.

But for the officer that used his gun to
wave the video camera man or woman away needs to be
reprimanded. You just don't wave someone off with a gun.

As for the firing of 120 rounds, it seem excessive.
And it also shows poor accuracy. But try doing this,
go bungy jump from a bridge or run around the block.
Then immediately fire at a target 15 yards away.
See if you can even hit the target. Adrenaline level
goes high during car chase, I don't think
even trained (and range qualified) police officer can
shoot good in that situation.

I think police officers should qualify using summer
biathlon style format (run or mountain bike and
then shoot at the target) instead of
shooting fully calm and relaxed. This would allow
officers to qualify in more realistic field condition.
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  #11  
Old 06-01-2005, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
If some guy peeled
out in front of me during a traffic stop, I'll be
pumping 120 rounds too.
Your not serious right????

"peeling out" is not enough reason to have your car riddled with bullets. If so, imagine all the lead footed teenagers out there that wouldn't make it past their 18th birthday. Myself included.

As for getting your adrenaline pumping and then shooting. Have you ever tried a 3 gun match. That's the whole idea behind running and gunning. Lots of people think shooting is as simple as putting up a paper target standing in an stance and slowly pumping lead downrange. Not so at all. Try pulling from a holster and doing point shooting. Try engaging a target while you are running with a carbine. Then try calming your heart down and shooting a target 200 yards away. Pretty hard. I can definitely vouch for that.

But in the case of the officers, they were less than 20 feet away and emptying their pistols into the car. Adrenaline or not there is no excuse for missing your target and shooting up other people's houses, not to mention your fellow officers.
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2005, 8:33 AM
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I have to chime in. 120 rounds fired, 4 connected. Less than 3% hit rate. Pretty pathetic. I don't expect the LEO community to practice as much as gun nuts like you and I but 3% hit rate. There's no excuse for that. Time for the LEO chiefs to require their officers hit the range time a LOT MORE.

Another issue, you and I are expected to know what we shoot at and what is behind it. We're expected to account for all our shots fired. And if you and I were involved in a shooting and one of our stray bullets hit a neighbor's house, we would be in a world of legal problems. But apparently the police who laid waste to a entire neighborhood can get a "get out of jail" card as long as they just pay for the damages. Seem a little two sided to you?

Being a LEO is a hard job and I personally wouldn't want to do it, especially for the crap pay they get. But jeez, I expect more from what I'm seeing lately.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2005, 5:46 PM
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Obviously the problem is that Cops need higher-capacity magazines.

I think glock 9s with 33 round mags will soon become the standard police sidearm.
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  #14  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:53 AM
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Funny how this is how we find out about this whole issue. I wonder what would have happened if this occurred in West LA? I'm sure it would be a media circus with EVERY senior deputy submitting their resignation. But they lucked out cause it happened in the ghetto.

They pulled over the wrong guy and are still trying to make him out to be the bad guy because he was "high"? A victimless crime? There is simply NO excuse for this incident. What motivation does the community have to be on the side of LE now?
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  #15  
Old 06-02-2005, 3:43 AM
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Look, I don't even care that they shot at this guy. He was just some trash anyways.

What I can't get over is how crappy their hit ratio was. 4 connections out of 120 fired? And these are paid/trained officials?
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
I lived the nightmare of the Rodney King verdicts...the DMV three blocks away from my house was burned to the ground. As a side note, three years "down there" was enough for me.
I marched with the rioters in Downtown LA for a 4 hours. Okay photos (lost most of it because was trying to load my camera while being tear gassed in front of the District Court building) but even better memories. What's your point.

The fact they had each other in the line of sight would make one think that they would be even more careful and not try to shoot each other. Apparently that didn't happen as one officer got shot by another officer.

However you look at it. Poor training. Poor plan of attack. Lucky they didn't kill themselves or some kid sleeping in his home.

Also, 120 rounds fired because some guy was "high" is not enough justification in my book. Heard that at the time, the guy being pulled over was actually a mistaken identy or bad call. The officers were responding to a "cop shooter" driving in a SUV. Hence the overwhelming force.

All I know is this dude is now a multi-millionare and the city these cops shot up are now a few million poorer.
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Old 06-01-2005, 7:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrTenX:
I'm wondering if the hapless homeowners in the line of fire whose homes were being shot up could have returned fire, claiming self defense.
Eh? Are you really wondering? hmmm..."I saw a bunch of police cars outside and decided to start shooting back at who ever I could see! It was self defense, they were shooting my home"

There is a link to some video footage from this article
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
All I know is this dude is now a multi-millionare and the city these cops shot up are now a few million poorer.

If this is true, the question has to be asked.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE?!

A million bucks is a million bucks. Someone screwed up big time. Or is it going to be the SOP of 'sweep it under the rug' and lay low until I collect my mega pension.
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:25 AM
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Let's take "backdrop" a little bit further, since it appears that calguns readers and the general populace at large haven't taken into consideration the effects of CROSSFIRE! Before you flame me, look at the film again. That should tell you something. For the record, I'm in public safety, not LE. All the training can't prepare one for everything. Before you flame me again...I lived the nightmare of the Rodney King verdicts...the DMV three blocks away from my house was burned to the ground. As a side note, three years "down there" was enough for me. Just my opinion, of course.
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Old 06-01-2005, 9:18 AM
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Yep, Rule #4 - Know your backdrop.

I was amused at the segment in the clip where the sheriff warns away the videographer by waving his gun at him (Rule #2 - Never point your gun at something you don't want to shoot).

That would have made me *very* nervous!
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Old 06-01-2005, 1:31 AM
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It makes me wonder about our law enforcement sometimes. Sure they do a good job a lot of the times, but sometimes I wonder about some of them.

I think armed citizens would have done better than this:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/...ed_suspect.htm

#1 - They fired 120 rounds at an unarmed suspect.
#2 - They hit the suspect 4 times. None of the hits were mortal.
#3 - They were hitting each other.

Most people know Sheriff Deputies are generally a bit more paranoid and quick to anger than city police, but this is ridiculous.
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Old 06-01-2005, 4:09 AM
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Would you be happier if they shot the guy three times and got three head shots? Or would that be excessive force? It seems to me that if you have a less than 3% hit ratio, then you need at least 100 rounds to guarantee any hits!
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Old 06-04-2005, 1:41 PM
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Their pay can't be that bad. I have two LA Sherriff friends in Anaheim Hills that are in $600,000 houses, and my just-retired Brea Sherriff neighbor is in a $900,000 house. I know the get special loan deals from the county, but you still have to make some decent dough to pay those mortgages.

oh, and both of my friends have emptied clips at suspects in intense backyard shootouts that lasted only a few seconds. Two Baretta's = 32 rounds, it adds up quick, suspect hit eight times in one cast and he was still trying to shoot as he died.
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Old 06-02-2005, 2:32 PM
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-sheriffshootout-05...ll=la-home-headlines


Saw the video, yes the guy was going slow and also there was NO one in front of him. Does that justify the 120 shots? No abosolutely not. They could've used less force as in taking the tires out, etc, even used less bullets, but jeez man 120 bullets? They didn't even shoot that many times at the guys with the aks that robbed that bank in hollywood...
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Old 06-02-2005, 4:42 AM
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Part of the info missing there is how many rounds hit the vehicle. Would you consider those to be "misses"? Cars are kinda weird and can both absorb bullets and be poor cover at the same time.
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Old 06-02-2005, 8:20 AM
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The thing is I don't think the SUV "peeled out" and was going to ram officers, it was going maybe 5 mph. Unless your an old granny, an able bodied LEO should move out of the way very quickly. The "peeling out" sound you hear was from the LEO cruiser boxing the SUV in. I haven't seen the video recently, but from what I recalled, the SUV does move forward, but no officers were in front of it, so the "he was going to run me over" defense doesn't apply. As for the SUV moving back. The SUV had just been riddled with bullets, and the guy inside had four bullets in him. Try keeping your foot on the brakes after someone dumps 120 rounds (actually 108 rounds, as 11 hit the surrounding homes, and 1 hit another officer)at you.

Don't get me wrong, the guy in the SUV was wrong for leading the police on a chase (not a high speed chase, mind you). But here is some black guy (slightly high from his own admission) driving along minding his own business and next thing he knows he's surrounded by a bunch of cop cars all yelling at him because they think he's a shooter....Not a happy camper feeling. Maybe he ran outta fear, whatever the reason, 120 rounds fired....overexcessive force.
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Old 06-01-2005, 1:28 PM
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ban SUV's...
SUV's are the root of all evil!
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  #28  
Old 06-02-2005, 12:17 AM
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50 Freak, I was kidding about shooting 120 rounds. It was overly exaggerated.
If I was standing in front of the car, and guy peels out and drives his car
straight towards me, I'm sorry but I'm gonna start shooting. This is what I
consider self defense! A guy trying to ram me with his car is no different from a guy
pointing his gun at me. They'll both be shot. People fail to realize that
vehicle can considered a deadly weapon depending on how the driver uses it.

If you read the recent news article below, intentionally ramming into
another person's car is considered assault with deadly weapon and it is a felony.
I'm sure it's the same if you trying to ram someone with your car.
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4553999/deta...subid=10101581

You don't do full sprint at 3 gun shoot and distance is too short for
the heart pumping level to go up high enough. You also failed to mention the low light
shooting practice. Remember this incident took place in the dark, we are all
bit uneasy in the dark environment. This may have contributed to "contagious fire."
LEOs didn't have clear view of who was shooting, where other officers are standing, etc.
No doubt, LASD need to review their policy and better train the officer so
goofups like this doesn't happen again.

Also, from the video (see the link above), most of the officers appear to be
positioned more than 20 feet from the vehicle.

I know its going off the topic but, did you guys in Socal see huge police presence today?
I'm referring to Torrance, Gardena, Palos Verdes, and Long Beach area.
Is there some kind of tactical alert here?
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