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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 04-04-2005, 1:29 PM
matterhorn762 matterhorn762 is offline
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Does anybody know of any law which would stop a California resident from buying a rifle or shotgun out of state?

That is the California DOJ position, but there is no law to my knowledge to support it. When I called them on the phone, they said it was Federally illegal. When I quickly quoted Federal Firerarm regulation 18 USC Sec. 922(b)(3), which clearly states otherwise, they changed their mind and said they would need to take down my information and call me back.

Then when they called me back, the guy had another story. He said it is illegal based on 12072 (a)(1), but that only applies to the seller, not the buyer. And besides, it doesn't have anything to do with which State the purchase is made, only about selling to people with a criminal record, which is totally irrelevant.

So what gives?
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Old 04-04-2005, 4:41 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:

I've quoted the relevant section below for Fed law. I'll update w/CA law when I see it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good to me, though to be honest, I'll be surprised if there actually is something legitimate on the matter. But if you do find anything, at least I would feel less cheated.
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Old 04-04-2005, 2:24 PM
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Hi and welcome to the site.
That's a very good question, I wish I had an answer for you. I am sure that one of the more versed in law guys will chime in here shortly, as I would definetly like to here the answer to this to.
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Old 04-04-2005, 2:32 PM
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And the person you spoke to at DOJ is prob a 1st level clerk or agent so just gonna know broad strokes of law... I don't have the actual laws at hand myself... but...

I assume you're talking about purchases via an FFL - private party over state lines is a no-no Federally no matter what any state has to say about it. (There are also some exceptions for C&R firearms and others here can tell you what those are.) The Fed law is written to allow the state law to control it: CA does not want its citizens to get guns from out of state without going thru CA dealer.

CA is an oddball state. All gun sales to CA residents must go thru an FFL in CA. If both states don't prohibit it, Fed law allows long guns to be purchased from an FFL in another state IF THE BUYER PHYSICALLY PRESENT AT FFL DEALER LOCATION, and presents appropriate ID, etc. Handguns have tighter rules, don't know those specifics.

[For handguns other than single-action revolvers in CA that are not transferred via private party transfer at a dealer, that's considered a 'purchase' - so the handgun has to be a tested/approved 'safe gun' on state certified roster, and you must give a safe handling demo to a certified person at gun shop. ]

Bill Wiese
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Old 04-04-2005, 1:29 PM
matterhorn762 matterhorn762 is offline
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Does anybody know of any law which would stop a California resident from buying a rifle or shotgun out of state?

That is the California DOJ position, but there is no law to my knowledge to support it. When I called them on the phone, they said it was Federally illegal. When I quickly quoted Federal Firerarm regulation 18 USC Sec. 922(b)(3), which clearly states otherwise, they changed their mind and said they would need to take down my information and call me back.

Then when they called me back, the guy had another story. He said it is illegal based on 12072 (a)(1), but that only applies to the seller, not the buyer. And besides, it doesn't have anything to do with which State the purchase is made, only about selling to people with a criminal record, which is totally irrelevant.

So what gives?
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Old 04-04-2005, 6:14 PM
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My take on the law quoted above is that the transaction would be legal, but all CA sales procedures (including CA mandatory 10 day wait) must be met. I wonder if the purchase would be even approved by NICS since CA does not participate.
I don't think it would be easy to find a dealer willing to sell to CA resident, but it's another issue. Heck, some dealers won't even send 100% CA legal guns to CA.
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Old 04-04-2005, 2:43 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:

CA is an oddball state. All gun sales to CA residents must go thru an FFL in CA. If both states don't prohibit it, Fed law allows long guns to be purchased from an FFL in another state IF THE BUYER PHYSICALLY PRESENT AT FFL DEALER LOCATION, and presents appropriate ID, etc. Handguns have tighter rules, don't know those specifics.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what I'm talking about. So again, what law prohibits you from driving to another state and legally buying a long gun? Where does it say that all gun sales must go through an FFL in CA. I know that's the DOJ party line, but I want to see the actual law. So far, I can't find it, and the DOJ can't reference me to it.
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Old 04-04-2005, 3:13 PM
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For operative Fed law see
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

I've quoted the relevant section below for Fed law. I'll update w/CA law when I see it.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
922(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver
{...snip...}
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States)...
{...snip...}
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bill Wiese
San Jose
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