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  #1  
Old 07-19-2005, 12:00 PM
Boondocksaint Boondocksaint is offline
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Wow, my thread got completely jacked. Thank you to the first few responders for answering my question.

I bought Federal Hydrashock in 9mm and .45 for my wife and I. I also picked up some Fiochi (sp) for the range.

Thanks again for the info. You can now return to your discussion on rifle rounds.
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  #2  
Old 07-20-2005, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by >_>:
A light weight bullet is best for defense, unless you're very well trained. If you're not that well trained, then you should have a gun that can shoot many rounds of low grain bullets so you can spray your target.
Are you serious?

It has been well documented that lightweight handgun bullets will typically not penetrate the FBI 12" minimum in ballistic gel, since they usually expand or even fragment very quickly and expend all their energy in the first few inches.

I assume you mean lightweight bullets will have less recoil, and you will therefore get faster followup shots. However, recoil is subjective, and heavy non +P rounds can often be percieved to have less recoil (and much less muzzle blast) than the high velocity +P light rounds, which still don't penetrate as deep.
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  #3  
Old 07-18-2005, 3:17 PM
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50Ed...

Effect of 'tumbling' has been disproven for quite some time.

2700fps is a magic # though 80gr OTM bullets (open-tip match) do well on short bbl suppressed ARs running in a role like 9mm SMGs, and also serve well at long ranges. Seems these work even better than 6.8mm, without hardware changes, in Afghanistan.

I don't have time right now to go into detail, but some very knowledgable folks on AR15-L email list know a lot about 223 ballistics, the Letterman Army Hospital tests in early 80s where we suddenly realized how good 223 was, etc. You'll see some threads there quoting Marvin Fackler and Dr Gary Roberts ("DocGKR" on some gun forums) about wound ballistics.

Also check http://www.firarmstactical.com

I would rather walk into a 147gr FMJ 308 than a 55gr or 62gr 223 round. Nice big clean .30" hole.

BlackHawk down was written by a nontechnical person as told by nontechnical people (soldiers just shoot, not wound ballistics experts) and I doubt they hang around long enough to check wounds on their target(s). Anecdotal reports muddle data and are not reliable.

Our .mil would change ammo in a heartbeat if it helped. The 6.8mm effort is an R&D effort with some limited field testing. Data's still out on it.


Bill Wiese
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  #4  
Old 07-18-2005, 6:54 PM
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Dont forget, we are not bound by Geneva Convention. Soft points are better than FMJ

I would definetly take my FAL before I would take my AR10... but my AR15 with a fresh loaded beta c.. that makes the decision making a little more tough.

Back to the thread. I would use the lighter round in you house for defense. It will more reliably expand and be less likely to pass through. Either way if it's a .45 the fights going to be over.
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2005, 3:47 PM
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Quote:
50 Freak, everytime I see your avatar, I think: 50 BMG...... Big Mammary Glands
Hell, if that was the case, I'd wouldn't mind a bit to getting "shot in the face" with a BMG.

"Double tap me baby"...umh..did I just say that???
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  #6  
Old 07-18-2005, 12:04 PM
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OH NO!!! Hit the deck!

The light and fast VS heavy and slow topic is like asking which god is the right god. For the range shoot what ever is cheap. Both grains will shoot just fine. For defence, thats something you have to pick. Here is what I do know....

Old school shooters love big and heavy. New younger shooters like light and fast. I'm a young shooter and at first I was in with the light and fast group. The +p numbers and gel blocks was all the proof I needed. Then I had some friends ship off to war in Irag and Afgan. I got to hear about guys being shot multipal time by the lighter 9mm and just walking away. That to me is scary. The point of a gun is to stop what every you are shooting ASAP. The lighter fast bullet may provide the same foot pounds per inch at impact but after that the bullet is slowed down much faster. A heavy bullet has the weight behind it pushing it harder and deeper. I spoke with my wife's grandfather who was in Germany back in WWII. I asked about the 45 and its dropping power. He said when he shot someone with a 45 (230gr) they stayed down. My friends coming back from Afgan and Iraq can't say the same for the lighter 112gr 9mm round. now 112 gr is a big diference from 180grs but the lighter vs heavy factor remains the same.

I now use the heavy stuff but it took a lot of reading and talking with those that shot people not gel blocks to come up with my decision. I think you should read up at http://www.ammolab.com . They have a lot of papered information about different ammo. Also read up using the seach button on different sites like http://www.1911forum.com and http://www.glocktalk.com . Lots of good info that will help you pikc the right ammo.
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  #7  
Old 07-19-2005, 7:34 PM
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A light weight bullet is best for defense, unless you're very well trained. If you're not that well trained, then you should have a gun that can shoot many rounds of low grain bullets so you can spray your target.
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  #8  
Old 07-18-2005, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 50 Freak:
I often wonder in a SHTF situation. Which would I grab. My AR (223 going at 3000 fps) or FAL (308 going at 2,800).

The lighter bullets as in my AR, are easier to handle, lighter recoil, good followup and more ammo. But the 308 is a proven manstopper.

When I shoot steel at 100 or 200 yards. The 223 just makes a light ping sound whereas the 308 pounds the steel targets with authority.

Seems like the heavier grain bullets would just do more damage.

Not quite true. 308 isn't as much of a manstopper as 223 - at least for FMJ military style rounds. And steel targets don't shoot back. (And human vs animal - say, deer - comparisons are irrelevant too - human reactions to being shot, and resistance offered by various tissues vary widely across species.)

For mil FMJ ammo, 223 is the real stopper at typ. combat ranges (100ish yds). The military goal of shooting someone is not necessarily to kill someone (irrelevant), but to stop him from attacking/ firing back, etc.

At typical combat ranges FMJ 308 produces nice clean holes. The target may die or bleed out later but he can still be a functioning threat for a short period after being shot.

By contrast 223, esp M193 ball (55gr FMJ, 3200fps), produces devastating wounds after a few inches of penetration. We really didn't know how good 223/5.56 was until the early 80s when Letterman Hospital in SF did wound analysis and found that 223 FMJ 55gr was way better than orig even intended. It wasn't just the caliber and speed, but the exact configuration of the cannelure of the bullet that allows separation into 2-3 smaller fragments) at the right depth really helped too.

During Vietnam the NVA/VC were amazed at the resulting wounds from 223 FMJ.

And any kind of real SHTF situation in an environment you find yourself may well involve worry about your background, and overpenetration. 308 is very dangerous still even after passing thru a bad guy and maybe some layers of sheetrock, walls, etc. 223 is far better - much less risk of exiting bad guy w/sufficient velocity. And Hornady 223 with that nylon ballstic tip is better than that - works like regular 223 inside bad guys, and is relatively harmless exiting him - and much better for cops/LEOs concerned about background safety than 9mm carbines...

For me? SHTF worst case = AR + decent ammo.

Bill Wiese
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  #9  
Old 07-19-2005, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Wow, my thread got completely jacked. Thank you to the first few responders for answering my question.
That's our job. To completely overwhelm you with semi-useless information. Isn't the Internet grand?

As to your original post. Rule of thumb. Use whatever you are comfortable with. It's not the bullet weight or configuration that matters. It is always SHOT PLACEMENT that ultimately wins the battle. Better to shoot the bad guy with a 22lr in the head than to miss with a 50 bmg.
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  #10  
Old 07-18-2005, 11:09 AM
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While searching for ammo for my 1911, I keep seeing 185 and 230 grain.

I have a basic idea, but I'm not sure of the specifics of the difference. Which is better for range shooting and which for home defense. I like in an apartment, so collateral is considered. Will a 185 grain JHP powerball do the job at home if it needs to?

Thanks for any input,
Ted
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2005, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boondocksaint:
Wow, my thread got completely jacked. Thank you to the first few responders for answering my question.

I bought Federal Hydrashock in 9mm and .45 for my wife and I. I also picked up some Fiochi (sp) for the range.

Thanks again for the info. You can now return to your discussion on rifle rounds.
I told you to hit the deck. I have NEVER seen this topic end without a few guys fighting over which is better. Fighting might be the wrong word....lets say disagree
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2005, 3:42 PM
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Well Bill, looks like this issue is going to have to be settled over dueling pistols and 20 paces...okay how about a day at the range and beer (preferabely beer first then shooting...whoo hooo...fun).
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2005, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
A light weight bullet is best for defense, unless you're very well trained. If you're not that well trained, then you should have a gun that can shoot many rounds of low grain bullets so you can spray your target.
I didn't want to say anything...
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Old 07-18-2005, 2:30 PM
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Bill, Bill, Bill....keep telling yourself that smaller is better...."It's not the size of the bullet, but the velocity that matters"....

I actually agree with you on some things. With proper ammo (MILSPEC 55 grain M-193) the tumbling effect on human tissue is truly awesome. But the effect is really reliant on two factors. One is the weight and construction of the bullet and second and more important is the hitting the "mythical 2,700 fps" mark. Not all bullets are built like the M-193 with cannelure and hence do not "disintegrating" (M-193 bullets have been shown to "rip" in two at the cannelure) inside the human body. With the short carbine barrels we usually sport now a days and heavier 62 grain bullets. It is neither reaching the 2,700 mark (or slows down too quick), nor reliablely breaking up upon entering human flesh (tumbling/yawing). That is the reason we are hearing the horror stories of our boys currently in the sand box and in past Somalia (Black Hawk Down) having to plug the enemy 10 times before he drops.

Now lets say we have the perfect AR / 223. 20 inch barrel, proper M193 ammo. The problem we have next is the 223 is not a good penetrator (the reason why the military is moved to heavier bullets). My uncle used to tell me that he preferred the AK in Vietnam as he could shoot through brush and not worry about the bullets being defected by twigs or such. Now in Iraq, we are not really worried about brush, but again our boys are running into having to shoot the enemy behind brick/clay walls etc. And again the report is the 223 is failing miserably. So the military again is looking into the 6.8/6.5 which is a 112+ grain bullet.

So it seems like the 223 is a good round given the fact you meet certain criteria.

1) You use proper M193 ammo (if you want the tumbling/yawing effect)

2) You achieve and maintain the proper velocity of at least 2,700 fps.

3) You shoot at an enemy on open ground with not obstacles.

4) You shoot at the enemy within 100 to 200ish feet (in order to keep the 2,700 fps rule).

To make this short, the 308 is a better round as it produces enough velocity to reliably tumble in the human body (though not as good as the 223 but not far behind) and has enough "weight" behind it to get to the enemy behind walls and obstacles. It is the perfect balance of performance and power.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:23 AM
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I shoot 230gr hardball ammo at the range and use Federal 'Hydrashok' 230gr HP ammo for SD. I believe you get more velocity out of the smaller gr rounds.
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  #16  
Old 07-19-2005, 6:55 AM
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You are an absolute wealth of knowledge..

OTM, I love it
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Old 07-19-2005, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 50 Freak:
a 50 bmg.
50 Freak, everytime I see your avatar, I think: 50 BMG...... Big Mammary Glands.


haha, I've already bought the ammo. It's just trial and error from here.
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Old 07-18-2005, 12:46 PM
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The real place lighter 185 grain JHP .45 loads shine is ensuring expansion out of very short barreled guns (like 3") where the heavy stuff may not have anough velocity and end up behaving like a ball round. Other than that I would stick to the heavy stuff.
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Old 07-18-2005, 1:07 PM
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Moving over to rifles now. As this sort of applies. I often wonder in a SHTF situation. Which would I grab. My AR (223 going at 3000 fps) or FAL (308 going at 2,800.

The lighter bullets as in my AR, are easier to handle, lighter recoil, good followup and more ammo. But the 308 is a proven manstopper.

When I shoot steel at 100 or 200 yards. The 223 just makes a light ping sound whereas the 308 pounds the steel targets with authority.

Seems like the heavier grain bullets would just do more damage.
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