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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 09-15-2009, 5:09 PM
glockfu glockfu is offline
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Default NFA Trust With Quicken Willmaker

Who has created a Trust for NFA guns with Quicken Willmaker? Is it difficult? Would you recomend it? Have you compared it with one done by a trust attorney? What are things to look out for/into?
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  #2  
Old 09-15-2009, 5:13 PM
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Check out the thread on trusts by Oaklander for more info.
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Old 09-15-2009, 5:59 PM
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I read through the whole thread about a month or so ago and know he advises against it. I trust that he knows what he's talking about but I want to explore other/less expensive alternatives.

With that said, I want to know about doing it through Quicken Willmaker, I know theres people that have done it. I'd also like to get other peoples experience and/or knowledge around this.
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Old 09-15-2009, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockfu View Post
I read through the whole thread about a month or so ago and know he advises against it. I trust that he knows what he's talking about but I want to explore other/less expensive alternatives.

With that said, I want to know about doing it through Quicken Willmaker, I know theres people that have done it. I'd also like to get other peoples experience and/or knowledge around this.
Whatever you decide, just be careful, and get a lawyer to double check it if possible. There's a reason why the services run a few hundred bucks; "cuz they are worth it".

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Old 09-15-2009, 6:44 PM
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There are some serious issues with probate and Federal firearms law that basic trusts do not handle as compared to NFA specific trusts.

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Old 09-15-2009, 7:15 PM
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Some of us used Quicken Willmaker because that was all that was available. There wasn't a CA-specific NFA trust offered at the time. If the trust is properly set up, it is a valid trust. AFAIK, some of the additions that NFA trusts add is language to help the successor trustee comply with the law, and to allow for the successor trustee adjust the beneficiaries as needed, among other helpful items.

For example, if the item was to be transfered to Jimmy, but Jimmy has a criminal record, even though it may not be a firearms-prohibiting record, it may not be a good idea to transfer an NFA firearm to him. With a regular trust, the successor trustee may not have discression to make that determination, but an NFA trust would have language to allow for that. Same for the successor trustee, having a method to make adjustments after the grantor and trustee passes away or becomes disabled. So, with a quicken trust, you would need to keep on top of who is listed in your trust and amend it to remove any firearm-prohibited people from it ASAP.

As long as the trust is valid, it should be fine during your lifetime, it is when you pass on and the trust becomes non-revocable that legal issues could arise. I'd suggest calling Oaklander for more info.
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Old 09-15-2009, 9:25 PM
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I consider anything in my NFA trust to be disposable. I have no intention of saddling my kids with them. My wife is the only other trustee, and she'll just have them destroyed.
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Old 09-15-2009, 9:30 PM
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I formed a revocable living trust with Quicken Willmaker.

I had a family friend who is both a lawyer and an NFA owner review it. It was sound...very easy to use.

A guide for you.
http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy...O_signoff.html


There are thousands of NFA owners across the country who use this method without issue.
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Old 09-15-2009, 9:35 PM
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As you will read in the guide there....be sure if you create a funky name for your trust, you change it to that funky name the whole way every time needed. Quicken automatically uses your name as the "title" of the trust...if it is not updated for each page....your trust is null and void.
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:39 PM
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Which firearms could a trust acquire in the state of California that a regular Joe couldn't?
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by psssniper View Post
Which firearms could a trust acquire in the state of California that a regular Joe couldn't?
AOW
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2009, 4:53 AM
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I've purchased all of my NFA stuff going the individual route, I dont think the trust route is going to be viable for much longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
I consider anything in my NFA trust to be disposable. I have no intention of saddling my kids with them. My wife is the only other trustee, and she'll just have them destroyed.
I wonder how many people said the same thing about MGs before '86....
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Old 09-16-2009, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
I consider anything in my NFA trust to be disposable. I have no intention of saddling my kids with them. My wife is the only other trustee, and she'll just have them destroyed.
Let me get this straight.

You own transferable NFA items in trust, and you'd destroy them rather than allow them to be transfered to a licensee upon your death?

I hope you don't own anything of note, because if you do you just won the trophy for most self-centered NFA owner of all time.
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Old 09-16-2009, 8:11 AM
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Would you please explain the '86 reference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kharn View Post
I've purchased all of my NFA stuff going the individual route, I dont think the trust route is going to be viable for much longer.
I wonder how many people said the same thing about MGs before '86....
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Old 09-16-2009, 8:51 AM
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What an odd comment. I know some people define themselves by their possessions for lack of something better, but I don't think of myself as an "NFA Owner" just because I have some items in that category, and I did not intend to enter into a "NFA Owners" club with code of honor, duties and responsibilities when I sent in my tax stamp. I'm not a "Collector", a "Sportsman" or a "Gun Owner." I'm a guy trying to do the right thing by my God and my family. Everything else is a distant third. I must have missed the part where I was supposed to put stuff in my trust for the greater good -- was that in the small print?

When I was in high school, a friend's dad had a Porsche. Just when my friend hit driving age, his dad sold the Porsche. Selfish or wise? That is a parent's prerogative.

To answer your "hope" though, of course the three items in my trust are nothing interesting, unique or high-quality. Why would I risk anything like that in CA?

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I hope you don't own anything of note, because if you do you just won the trophy for most self-centered NFA owner of all time.
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  #16  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:07 AM
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Awesome information as always from Calguns! That was also a great article. Thanks!

Does that article cover all the NFA specifics being referenced in this thread?
Are the only things left out of Quicken dealing with what happens with the guns after you die?
Im sure some of you know the specifics around what parts need/should be added. What are they? Is it too complicated to post the specifics?

Thanks again guys! Keep it coming...
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:25 AM
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As I understand it, a trust allows you to get certain CA legal NFA items without chief LEO sign off.

People in anti-gun counties can't expect to ever get the sign off so they get a trust to own these legal items that their chief LEO doesn't want them to have.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
As I understand it, a trust allows you to get certain CA legal NFA items without chief LEO sign off.

People in anti-gun counties can't expect to ever get the sign off so they get a trust to own these legal items that their chief LEO doesn't want them to have.
Correct. For CA, it's really just for AOWs - like Serbu Super-Shortys, etc.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
Would you please explain the '86 reference?
Before 1986, you could build any MG you wanted after paying the $200 tax. People (mainly dealers as they didnt pay the tax) would basically throw away worn-out Macs and Stens because they werent worth repairing and buy or build a new one. Now those guns would be worth thousands of dollars but they're at the bottom of a lake or whereever.

Plus, you do know that after you die any NFA you own transfer tax-free on a Form 5 to your designated heir, right?
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
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Correct. For CA, it's really just for AOWs - like Serbu Super-Shortys, etc.
I thought it was for SBR and SBS also.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Strong View Post
Let me get this straight.

You own transferable NFA items in trust, and you'd destroy them rather than allow them to be transfered to a licensee upon your death?

I hope you don't own anything of note, because if you do you just won the trophy for most self-centered NFA owner of all time.
I think vandal's position is that the NFA items that he has aren't worth enough $$$ to matter in the big picture to deal with worrying about possibly saddling an heir with a felony if the item is not transferred properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
To answer your "hope" though, of course the three items in my trust are nothing interesting, unique or high-quality. Why would I risk anything like that in CA?
yup, we're in CA, so we are talking about C&R SBS and AOWs. Items that right now, are worth $500-1000, Its not like its a $10,000+ non-replaceable transferable MG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kharn View Post
Plus, you do know that after you die any NFA you own transfer tax-free on a Form 5 to your designated heir, right?
Right, but if the successor trustee is not up to speed on the law, or the heir is firearms-prohibited, the transfer could create a felony situation. It appears that vandal would rather see the grand or two worht of NFA items be destroyed than to potentially harm an heir legally.

Spending $600 on a trust to protect the value of a $600 NFA item may not seem to make financial sense, but may be worth the extra cost in order to protect your heirs with the NFA-specific language.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
I thought it was for SBR and SBS also.
Yes, it covers C&R SBS/SBRs, but it appears that ATF has decided to no longer approve SBx Form 1s on C&R host guns. If that is the case, then you'd only be able to Form 4 existing C&R SBx firearms.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:18 PM
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So what if I created the trust with no heirs...does this eliminate the concerns with creating the trust with Quicken?

It seems as though no one wants to talk about the specifics of what needs to be added or modified from the Quicken trust... is there a reason for this?

Last edited by glockfu; 09-16-2009 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockfu View Post
So what if I created the trust with no heirs...does this eliminate the concerns with creating the trust with Quicken.

It seems as though no one wants to talk about the specifics of what needs to be added or modified from the Quicken trust... is there a reason for this?
See the website for "Florida Gun Trust Lawyer" and look what happened to the guy who had ATF problems with a Quicken trust. (That may well have been specific to him, but still...) The ATF said the trust was invalid and then his possession of the guns was criminal. Took some good lawyering to fix that one.

Why not do it right in the first place? Spend a few hundred bucks once.
It also gives you some legal cover - "my lawyer did this".

Amazing here how cheap people are ... "I spent $20 on my Prince 50 and now you want me to spend another $20 for a BulletButton!" etc.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockfu View Post
So what if I created the trust with no heirs...does this eliminate the concerns with creating the trust with Quicken.
a trust without heirs/beneficiaries would probably not be a valid trust.

Quote:
It seems as though no one wants to talk about the specifics of what needs to be added or modified from the Quicken trust... is there a reason for this?
One reason no one talks about the specifics may be that those that have the info paid to get it. The lawyers that have the info want to get paid to give you the specifics. And those that paid for an NFA trust may not be willing to give any info that they paid for.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:35 PM
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I never understood that. ATF gets a copy of the trust up front, and it's on the basis of it being valid and legal that they issue the stamp. How can they come back later and say he had an invalid trust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
See the website for "Florida Gun Trust Lawyer" and look what happened to the guy who had ATF problems with a Quicken trust. (That may well have been specific to him, but still...) The ATF said the trust was invalid and then his possession of the guns was criminal.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Amazing here how cheap people are ... "I spent $20 on my Prince 50 and now you want me to spend another $20 for a BulletButton!" etc.
Its not about being cheap... its about making an informed buying decision. If one can save $600 without too much effort thats not cheap...thats smart.

The reason I brought this up is because I talked with a very reputable person in the industry who recomended that I use Quicken so here I am trying to gather more information...

Last edited by glockfu; 09-16-2009 at 12:58 PM..
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Old 09-16-2009, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
One reason no one talks about the specifics may be that those that have the info paid to get it. The lawyers that have the info want to get paid to give you the specifics. And those that paid for an NFA trust may not be willing to give any info that they paid for.
This is what I figured but didn't want to jump to conclusions. I can understand that, everyones gotta make a living... but I had to ask anyways =)

Good info regardless...thanks!
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Old 09-16-2009, 1:27 PM
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David Goldman is the lawyer who operates the Florida Gun Trust Lawyer website, and is the person that I work with on these trusts.

I urge people to do further research before using Quicken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
See the website for "Florida Gun Trust Lawyer" and look what happened to the guy who had ATF problems with a Quicken trust. (That may well have been specific to him, but still...) The ATF said the trust was invalid and then his possession of the guns was criminal. Took some good lawyering to fix that one.

Why not do it right in the first place? Spend a few hundred bucks once.
It also gives you some legal cover - "my lawyer did this".

Amazing here how cheap people are ... "I spent $20 on my Prince 50 and now you want me to spend another $20 for a BulletButton!" etc.
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Old 09-16-2009, 7:18 PM
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There are so many inaccuate statements in this thread that I really do not know where to begin.

1) Just because ATF approves a Form 4 or Form 1 transfer to a trust does not mean your trust is valid. I have seen many trusts created by quicken, provided by dealers, and from the internet on Manufactures sites that do not create valid trusts.

2) a normal trust instructs your successor trustees and trustees to violate the law in regards to purchases and transfers.

3) a normal trust does not contemplate the NFA in any way nor any state laws regarding the transfer or possession of Title II firearms in regards to transfer or sale across state lines, within the state, in the case of revocation of the trust, in regards to transferring the items to beneficiaries or any other aspect involving purchase, transfer, or use of the Title II firearms.

When I first joined this forum I was only providing NFA trusts in Florida, over the last 12-18 months we have developed relationships with more than 75 lawyers in over 43 states to provide custom trust for the purchase and transfer of NFA firearms.

While what you can purchase is severely limited for possession in California, we have create trusts for many residents of California who store items in other states.

Below is a short summary of the differences and advantages of a NFA Firearms trust compared to individual ownership or a traditional trust. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have pertaining to your individual circumstances but feel that these are best handled offline for privacy reasons. We find that many of the questions involve past actions and we work with individuals and families to resolve these issues before they create liabilities.

One of the differences in a professionally created NFA Trust is in how the firearms are treated in the event of your eventual incapacity or death. Most trusts name a "Successor Trustee". The problem is that although we name this person, we do not know if they will survive us, or be willing to help out. What we do know is that a close family member or friend will usually volunteer to manage our Estate and/or assets in Trust. The biggest problem and risk to our family is that this person will not know how to properly deal with Title II firearms and unknowingly create criminal liability for themselves or another member of our family. The last thing we want to do when we die or become incapacitated is to create criminal liability for our family and friends. (The penalties for each violation are 10 years in Jail and a $250,000 penalty).

There are many problems in using a traditional trust when dealing with firearms. Its not enough for a beneficiary to reach a certain age prior to distributing an asset like you would do with a couch, picture on the wall, or bank account. You must ascertain the geographic location of the beneficiary, determine whether the items are legal in that state, determine if the beneficiary is legally eligible to receive, own, or possess the items, and most importantly determine if the beneficiary is mature and responsible enough to be in possession of the firearms. We all know that one of the most important things with gun ownership is training. We would never hand a gun to someone without providing them instructions on how to use it, but that is exactly what we do when we use a traditional trust. In addition, we put our family members and friends at risk when they carry out the instructions in the trust because most trusts instruct the successor trustee to break them law, when holding, purchasing, or selling assets by not pointing out how these simple actions will violate the NFA and create criminal and civil liabilities for our family members. Above is only one of the many areas that illustrate why a traditional trust is not suitable for firearms, much less Title II firearms.


Below you will find some of the reasons why a NFA trust can be the best way to own firearms restricted by the NFA as well as the typical steps involved in the process and the costs associated with the entire process.

Some of the main benefits of an NFA Trust include:

1) The ability to tell your representatives how to properly transfer these assets upon your death;
2) The ability to transfer assets to children even below the age of 18 at a later time while giving the trustee the ability to look at the child's mental state, physical location, and age in addition to whether the child is legally able to own, possess, or use the firearms;
3) The ability for the Trustee to refuse assets transfered by will or other means if NFA and state requirements are not complied with;
4) Requirement to comply with NFA and State laws for transfer of NFA related assets;
5) The ability to make uneven distributions to heirs to conserve value of assets;
6) The ability to purchase Title II weapons, without creating a violation of the duties of the trustee;
7) The ability to use the weapons in the trust without creating liability to the beneficiaries;
8) The instructions and formalities on how to: manufacture items under a Form 1, how to purchase items correctly under a Form 4, how to properly document and transport Title II firearms with a Form 20.
9) Protection for yourself and your family from Constructive Possession - a violation of the NFA.
10) The ability to add others to your trust at a later time and create additional authorized users of the firearms.

Each NFA Trust comes with a Memorandum (users manual) which discusses many of the commonly asked questions regarding the NFA and ATF regulations.
Because each violation of the National Firearms Act can subject you and your family to 10 years in jail and fines of $250,000 per violation it is very important to understand how to properly purchase, use, possess, and transfer the firearms that are restricted by the NFA. In addition to creating a custom trust for your needs, we teach you how to make the purchase correctly, who can and cannot use the weapons, and how to avoid the common technical violations of the NFA that most individuals, businesses, and trusts make.

The steps involved in creating a trust involve the following:
1) Discuss your goals, and what you need to do to protect yourself, family, and friends from violations of the NFA.
2) Draft the trust based upon the above information.
3) Review the trust with a local attorney and make modifications as necessary.
4) You are taught how to use the trust, what it does.
5) We tell you how to purchase the items correctly to avoid violations of the NFA.
6) We teach you how to avoid the common procedural and technical violations of the NFA
7) You sign the trust and send us a copy for review.
8) You make the purchase and can make additional purchases in the future without additional costs associated with the trust.

David Goldman
Apple Law Firm PLLC
331 East Monroe Street
Jacksonville, FL 32202

Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678

NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog and Information
http://www.FloridaEstatePlanningLawyerBlog.com/
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  #31  
Old 09-16-2009, 7:30 PM
B Strong B Strong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandal View Post
What an odd comment. I know some people define themselves by their possessions for lack of something better, but I don't think of myself as an "NFA Owner" just because I have some items in that category, and I did not intend to enter into a "NFA Owners" club with code of honor, duties and responsibilities when I sent in my tax stamp. I'm not a "Collector", a "Sportsman" or a "Gun Owner." I'm a guy trying to do the right thing by my God and my family. Everything else is a distant third. I must have missed the part where I was supposed to put stuff in my trust for the greater good -- was that in the small print?

When I was in high school, a friend's dad had a Porsche. Just when my friend hit driving age, his dad sold the Porsche. Selfish or wise? That is a parent's prerogative.

To answer your "hope" though, of course the three items in my trust are nothing interesting, unique or high-quality. Why would I risk anything like that in CA?
Having personal knowledge of individuals making very bad decisions that led to the confiscation of transferable MG's, any time I hear of a lawful owner doing something as you stated, my back goes up.

Carrry on.
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  #32  
Old 09-16-2009, 7:43 PM
Florida Gun Trust Lawyer Florida Gun Trust Lawyer is offline
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Well with a normal trust, I am not sure there is a good alternative. Unfortunately when you die, you cannot make a good determination as to whether its a good idea to give the items to your child or beneficiary. You do not know who they will be, what state they will live in, if they will be legally eligible to own or be in possession of the items and most importantly if they will be mature and responsible enough at the time.

This is another reasons to use a trust that is specifically created for firearms that has the powers and the ability to deal with all of these issues upon your death or disability.

I have a 10 year old son and if something were to happen to me, my brother is selected as the successor trustee. He is to wait until my son reaches 25 and then see if its a good idea and legal to transfer them to him based on the circumstance which none of us will know for at least 15 years from now.

To make the decision now to not give your beneficiaries the option of enjoying or owning these firearms seems a shame but its better than your successor trustee and beneficiaries going to jail or getting fined for an improper transfer or possession of the firearms.

Many trust that individuals create do not take into consideration the unique desires and family situations of the individuals and as a result place family members and themselves in jeopardy of violating the transfer and possession aspects of the NFA. Many are relatively simple fixes, but one must fully understand the NFA and each clients situation and desires to draft a trust to meet their goals and needs.

Too often we find individuals whose only goal is ownership and they do so without regard to the risks involved.


David Goldman
Apple Law Firm PLLC
331 East Monroe Street
Jacksonville, FL 32202

Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678

http://www.JacksonvilleLawyer.pro/
http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/
http://www.FloridaEstatePlanningLawyerBlog.com/
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2009, 8:18 PM
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David,

Thank you for joining here and letting folks know things aren't as simple as a $50 program.
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  #34  
Old 09-17-2009, 8:23 AM
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Solidsnake87 Solidsnake87 is online now
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Wow. This is a pretty interesting thread so far. Never knew what the whole 86 thing was about
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  #35  
Old 09-17-2009, 9:57 AM
glockfu glockfu is offline
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This is definately great information. Florida Gun Trust Lawyer... thanks for chiming in with your much more detailed responses. I can definately see your points and reasoning.

What types of things would make an NFA trust invalid? Are they things that would make any trust invalid or are they NFA specific?
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