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| California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#1
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Who has created a Trust for NFA guns with Quicken Willmaker? Is it difficult? Would you recomend it? Have you compared it with one done by a trust attorney? What are things to look out for/into?
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#3
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I read through the whole thread about a month or so ago and know he advises against it. I trust that he knows what he's talking about but I want to explore other/less expensive alternatives.
With that said, I want to know about doing it through Quicken Willmaker, I know theres people that have done it. I'd also like to get other peoples experience and/or knowledge around this. |
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#4
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David F. |
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#5
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There are some serious issues with probate and Federal firearms law that basic trusts do not handle as compared to NFA specific trusts.
-Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman Chairman, The Calguns Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @CalgunsFdn on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#6
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Some of us used Quicken Willmaker because that was all that was available. There wasn't a CA-specific NFA trust offered at the time. If the trust is properly set up, it is a valid trust. AFAIK, some of the additions that NFA trusts add is language to help the successor trustee comply with the law, and to allow for the successor trustee adjust the beneficiaries as needed, among other helpful items.
For example, if the item was to be transfered to Jimmy, but Jimmy has a criminal record, even though it may not be a firearms-prohibiting record, it may not be a good idea to transfer an NFA firearm to him. With a regular trust, the successor trustee may not have discression to make that determination, but an NFA trust would have language to allow for that. Same for the successor trustee, having a method to make adjustments after the grantor and trustee passes away or becomes disabled. So, with a quicken trust, you would need to keep on top of who is listed in your trust and amend it to remove any firearm-prohibited people from it ASAP. As long as the trust is valid, it should be fine during your lifetime, it is when you pass on and the trust becomes non-revocable that legal issues could arise. I'd suggest calling Oaklander for more info.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#8
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I formed a revocable living trust with Quicken Willmaker.
I had a family friend who is both a lawyer and an NFA owner review it. It was sound...very easy to use. A guide for you. http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy...O_signoff.html There are thousands of NFA owners across the country who use this method without issue.
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California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
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#9
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As you will read in the guide there....be sure if you create a funky name for your trust, you change it to that funky name the whole way every time needed. Quicken automatically uses your name as the "title" of the trust...if it is not updated for each page....your trust is null and void.
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California Uber Alles, California Uber Alles Uber Alles California, Uber Alles California I am Governor Jerry Brown, My aura smiles and never frowns, Soon I will be President... |
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#10
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Which firearms could a trust acquire in the state of California that a regular Joe couldn't?
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"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness; I love only that which they defend. victus exaro somniculosus, somnus exaro ieiunium |
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#11
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AOW
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![]() NRA Member |
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#12
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I've purchased all of my NFA stuff going the individual route, I dont think the trust route is going to be viable for much longer.
I wonder how many people said the same thing about MGs before '86.... |
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#13
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You own transferable NFA items in trust, and you'd destroy them rather than allow them to be transfered to a licensee upon your death? I hope you don't own anything of note, because if you do you just won the trophy for most self-centered NFA owner of all time.
__________________
The way some gunshop clerks spout off, you'd think that they invented gunpowder and the repeating rifle, and sat on the Supreme Court as well. ___________________________________________ "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper Check my current auctions on Gunbroker - user name bigbasscat - see what left California before Roberti-Roos |
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#14
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Would you please explain the '86 reference?
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#15
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What an odd comment. I know some people define themselves by their possessions for lack of something better, but I don't think of myself as an "NFA Owner" just because I have some items in that category, and I did not intend to enter into a "NFA Owners" club with code of honor, duties and responsibilities when I sent in my tax stamp. I'm not a "Collector", a "Sportsman" or a "Gun Owner." I'm a guy trying to do the right thing by my God and my family. Everything else is a distant third. I must have missed the part where I was supposed to put stuff in my trust for the greater good -- was that in the small print?
When I was in high school, a friend's dad had a Porsche. Just when my friend hit driving age, his dad sold the Porsche. Selfish or wise? That is a parent's prerogative. To answer your "hope" though, of course the three items in my trust are nothing interesting, unique or high-quality. Why would I risk anything like that in CA? |
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#16
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Awesome information as always from Calguns! That was also a great article. Thanks!
Does that article cover all the NFA specifics being referenced in this thread? Are the only things left out of Quicken dealing with what happens with the guns after you die? Im sure some of you know the specifics around what parts need/should be added. What are they? Is it too complicated to post the specifics? Thanks again guys! Keep it coming... |
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#17
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As I understand it, a trust allows you to get certain CA legal NFA items without chief LEO sign off.
People in anti-gun counties can't expect to ever get the sign off so they get a trust to own these legal items that their chief LEO doesn't want them to have. |
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#18
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Correct. For CA, it's really just for AOWs - like Serbu Super-Shortys, etc.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#19
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Before 1986, you could build any MG you wanted after paying the $200 tax. People (mainly dealers as they didnt pay the tax) would basically throw away worn-out Macs and Stens because they werent worth repairing and buy or build a new one. Now those guns would be worth thousands of dollars but they're at the bottom of a lake or whereever.
Plus, you do know that after you die any NFA you own transfer tax-free on a Form 5 to your designated heir, right? |
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#21
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Quote:
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Spending $600 on a trust to protect the value of a $600 NFA item may not seem to make financial sense, but may be worth the extra cost in order to protect your heirs with the NFA-specific language.
__________________
Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#22
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Yes, it covers C&R SBS/SBRs, but it appears that ATF has decided to no longer approve SBx Form 1s on C&R host guns. If that is the case, then you'd only be able to Form 4 existing C&R SBx firearms.
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#23
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So what if I created the trust with no heirs...does this eliminate the concerns with creating the trust with Quicken?
It seems as though no one wants to talk about the specifics of what needs to be added or modified from the Quicken trust... is there a reason for this? Last edited by glockfu; 09-16-2009 at 12:21 PM.. |
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#24
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Why not do it right in the first place? Spend a few hundred bucks once. It also gives you some legal cover - "my lawyer did this". Amazing here how cheap people are ... "I spent $20 on my Prince 50 and now you want me to spend another $20 for a BulletButton!" etc.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#25
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Quote:
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#26
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I never understood that. ATF gets a copy of the trust up front, and it's on the basis of it being valid and legal that they issue the stamp. How can they come back later and say he had an invalid trust?
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#27
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The reason I brought this up is because I talked with a very reputable person in the industry who recomended that I use Quicken so here I am trying to gather more information... Last edited by glockfu; 09-16-2009 at 12:58 PM.. |
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#28
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Good info regardless...thanks! |
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#29
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David Goldman is the lawyer who operates the Florida Gun Trust Lawyer website, and is the person that I work with on these trusts.
I urge people to do further research before using Quicken. Quote:
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#30
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There are so many inaccuate statements in this thread that I really do not know where to begin.
1) Just because ATF approves a Form 4 or Form 1 transfer to a trust does not mean your trust is valid. I have seen many trusts created by quicken, provided by dealers, and from the internet on Manufactures sites that do not create valid trusts. 2) a normal trust instructs your successor trustees and trustees to violate the law in regards to purchases and transfers. 3) a normal trust does not contemplate the NFA in any way nor any state laws regarding the transfer or possession of Title II firearms in regards to transfer or sale across state lines, within the state, in the case of revocation of the trust, in regards to transferring the items to beneficiaries or any other aspect involving purchase, transfer, or use of the Title II firearms. When I first joined this forum I was only providing NFA trusts in Florida, over the last 12-18 months we have developed relationships with more than 75 lawyers in over 43 states to provide custom trust for the purchase and transfer of NFA firearms. While what you can purchase is severely limited for possession in California, we have create trusts for many residents of California who store items in other states. Below is a short summary of the differences and advantages of a NFA Firearms trust compared to individual ownership or a traditional trust. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have pertaining to your individual circumstances but feel that these are best handled offline for privacy reasons. We find that many of the questions involve past actions and we work with individuals and families to resolve these issues before they create liabilities. One of the differences in a professionally created NFA Trust is in how the firearms are treated in the event of your eventual incapacity or death. Most trusts name a "Successor Trustee". The problem is that although we name this person, we do not know if they will survive us, or be willing to help out. What we do know is that a close family member or friend will usually volunteer to manage our Estate and/or assets in Trust. The biggest problem and risk to our family is that this person will not know how to properly deal with Title II firearms and unknowingly create criminal liability for themselves or another member of our family. The last thing we want to do when we die or become incapacitated is to create criminal liability for our family and friends. (The penalties for each violation are 10 years in Jail and a $250,000 penalty). There are many problems in using a traditional trust when dealing with firearms. Its not enough for a beneficiary to reach a certain age prior to distributing an asset like you would do with a couch, picture on the wall, or bank account. You must ascertain the geographic location of the beneficiary, determine whether the items are legal in that state, determine if the beneficiary is legally eligible to receive, own, or possess the items, and most importantly determine if the beneficiary is mature and responsible enough to be in possession of the firearms. We all know that one of the most important things with gun ownership is training. We would never hand a gun to someone without providing them instructions on how to use it, but that is exactly what we do when we use a traditional trust. In addition, we put our family members and friends at risk when they carry out the instructions in the trust because most trusts instruct the successor trustee to break them law, when holding, purchasing, or selling assets by not pointing out how these simple actions will violate the NFA and create criminal and civil liabilities for our family members. Above is only one of the many areas that illustrate why a traditional trust is not suitable for firearms, much less Title II firearms. Below you will find some of the reasons why a NFA trust can be the best way to own firearms restricted by the NFA as well as the typical steps involved in the process and the costs associated with the entire process. Some of the main benefits of an NFA Trust include: 1) The ability to tell your representatives how to properly transfer these assets upon your death; 2) The ability to transfer assets to children even below the age of 18 at a later time while giving the trustee the ability to look at the child's mental state, physical location, and age in addition to whether the child is legally able to own, possess, or use the firearms; 3) The ability for the Trustee to refuse assets transfered by will or other means if NFA and state requirements are not complied with; 4) Requirement to comply with NFA and State laws for transfer of NFA related assets; 5) The ability to make uneven distributions to heirs to conserve value of assets; 6) The ability to purchase Title II weapons, without creating a violation of the duties of the trustee; 7) The ability to use the weapons in the trust without creating liability to the beneficiaries; 8) The instructions and formalities on how to: manufacture items under a Form 1, how to purchase items correctly under a Form 4, how to properly document and transport Title II firearms with a Form 20. 9) Protection for yourself and your family from Constructive Possession - a violation of the NFA. 10) The ability to add others to your trust at a later time and create additional authorized users of the firearms. Each NFA Trust comes with a Memorandum (users manual) which discusses many of the commonly asked questions regarding the NFA and ATF regulations. Because each violation of the National Firearms Act can subject you and your family to 10 years in jail and fines of $250,000 per violation it is very important to understand how to properly purchase, use, possess, and transfer the firearms that are restricted by the NFA. In addition to creating a custom trust for your needs, we teach you how to make the purchase correctly, who can and cannot use the weapons, and how to avoid the common technical violations of the NFA that most individuals, businesses, and trusts make. The steps involved in creating a trust involve the following: 1) Discuss your goals, and what you need to do to protect yourself, family, and friends from violations of the NFA. 2) Draft the trust based upon the above information. 3) Review the trust with a local attorney and make modifications as necessary. 4) You are taught how to use the trust, what it does. 5) We tell you how to purchase the items correctly to avoid violations of the NFA. 6) We teach you how to avoid the common procedural and technical violations of the NFA 7) You sign the trust and send us a copy for review. 8) You make the purchase and can make additional purchases in the future without additional costs associated with the trust. David Goldman Apple Law Firm PLLC 331 East Monroe Street Jacksonville, FL 32202 Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678 NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog and Information http://www.FloridaEstatePlanningLawyerBlog.com/
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-- NFA Gun Trust Lawyer, David Goldman Gun Trust Articles for all 50 States Florida Estate Planning Blog |
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#31
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Quote:
Carrry on.
__________________
The way some gunshop clerks spout off, you'd think that they invented gunpowder and the repeating rifle, and sat on the Supreme Court as well. ___________________________________________ "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Jeff Cooper Check my current auctions on Gunbroker - user name bigbasscat - see what left California before Roberti-Roos |
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#32
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Well with a normal trust, I am not sure there is a good alternative. Unfortunately when you die, you cannot make a good determination as to whether its a good idea to give the items to your child or beneficiary. You do not know who they will be, what state they will live in, if they will be legally eligible to own or be in possession of the items and most importantly if they will be mature and responsible enough at the time.
This is another reasons to use a trust that is specifically created for firearms that has the powers and the ability to deal with all of these issues upon your death or disability. I have a 10 year old son and if something were to happen to me, my brother is selected as the successor trustee. He is to wait until my son reaches 25 and then see if its a good idea and legal to transfer them to him based on the circumstance which none of us will know for at least 15 years from now. To make the decision now to not give your beneficiaries the option of enjoying or owning these firearms seems a shame but its better than your successor trustee and beneficiaries going to jail or getting fined for an improper transfer or possession of the firearms. Many trust that individuals create do not take into consideration the unique desires and family situations of the individuals and as a result place family members and themselves in jeopardy of violating the transfer and possession aspects of the NFA. Many are relatively simple fixes, but one must fully understand the NFA and each clients situation and desires to draft a trust to meet their goals and needs. Too often we find individuals whose only goal is ownership and they do so without regard to the risks involved. David Goldman Apple Law Firm PLLC 331 East Monroe Street Jacksonville, FL 32202 Tel (904) 685-1200 Fax (904) 212-0678 http://www.JacksonvilleLawyer.pro/ http://www.GunTrustLawyer.com/ http://www.FloridaEstatePlanningLawyerBlog.com/ |
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#33
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David,
Thank you for joining here and letting folks know things aren't as simple as a $50 program.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#34
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Wow. This is a pretty interesting thread so far. Never knew what the whole 86 thing was about
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#35
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This is definately great information. Florida Gun Trust Lawyer... thanks for chiming in with your much more detailed responses. I can definately see your points and reasoning.
What types of things would make an NFA trust invalid? Are they things that would make any trust invalid or are they NFA specific? |
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