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  #1  
Old 04-21-2005, 7:39 AM
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My opinion - and I'm not a lawyer...

The original P22 "assault weapons" are 'by feature' AWs. The evil feature is, of course, a threaded barrel. P22s are not banned by name, etc.

If you're moving/moved out of state, tell 'em to f**k off.

P22 AW owners are under no legal obligation to use S&W to modify/change their P22. They could turn the threads off themselves, have another smith do it, etc.

DOJ has NO idea of the status of your P22. Is it an AW? Did you fix it yourself by turning the threads? etc etc.

And nonresponse to this letter shouldn't be grounds for a search warrant. (But mind your Ps & Qs just the same: this could be fun for the right person to take on DOJ...)

Removal of P22 barrel and keeping them locked separately, or purchasing a new unthreaded bbl should also comply with law - exactly similar to having a FAL clone with a separate pistol grip. Of course you could never assemble/shoot your P22 in CA this way until threaded bbl replaced, but the DOJ can't force you to have a working gun

Bill Wiese
San Jose
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  #2  
Old 04-17-2005, 7:33 PM
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Ted,
Thanks, but they're eliminating my options to switch back and forth. It's one of the main attractions of this pistol. What do I do with my 3 1/2" barrel? Turn it into a whistle that plays the legislature's whimsical tune?

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Old 05-27-2005, 2:10 PM
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I called S&W a few minutes ago. They have received approximately 4500 P22's recently. Mine, I was told, will be back by the end of next week.
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  #4  
Old 06-07-2005, 5:36 PM
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Excuse my ignorance here. If I understnad some of these posts, once the mods are done by S&W, you cannot change it to accept the 5" barrel. Is that correct?
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:28 PM
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I just got mine in the mail... but I leave for Nevada in one week...
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2005, 1:36 PM
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I'd bet S&W prob tracks thru their distrib. & dealer links and didn't get info from Cal DOJ.

So the dealer info from 4473/DROS comes from gunshops in dribs & drabs. When they got enough addresses, info etc - that is, they hit some threshold- they decided to kick it in gear.

Bill W
San Jose
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Old 05-04-2005, 12:12 PM
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Here is a picture of my newly modified pistol. It looks as though they used the super glue method and a non wrenchable cap. I believe you could just remove it with some force and a good pair of vice grips if you were so inclined. That of course would be in violation of the law. I am just saying how it looks. I obviously would never do that, as long as I have it in this state. The fact that I sent it to them in the first place shows you how far I would go to be compliant to this nanny state and their foolish laws. What I am saying is that a person who does not care about the law could easily make this as it was, with the most basic of tools. I feel silly owning this weapon.

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  #8  
Old 04-17-2005, 3:43 PM
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sorry about that bweise....i thought you were talking to me!!!!



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  #9  
Old 04-17-2005, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Alles wrote:
So, if I bought a perfectly legal gun in 2002 and in 2003 the legislature decided it wasn't legal, in 2005 they can:
1) reduce the value of my personal property
2) threaten my liberty (criminalize) me if I don't submit to this whimsical evaluation
... and there's nothing I can do about it?

No fourth amendment, Unreasonable Search & Seizure protections here?
If your above statement/question is directly addressing the Walther P22 issue we're discussing here, this gun was illegally imported into CA, illegally sold to owners, illegally approved by DOJ, and is illegally possessed by Californians - since it is an assault weapon. These transactions should not have happened in the first place. There was nothing retroactive about this, and this gun was not in the state before these laws were passed & enacted ('by feature' AW registrations were due by 12/31/00).

I wouldn't have bought a P22 esp upon seeing the threading on the barrel, and if I found out later I'd've returned it to store ASAP for a full refund - including DROS fees etc.

Speaking more generally, the CA legislature can (without, unfortunately, taking broad 2nd Amend. considerations to heart) declare certain types of guns illegal. However, do note that everytime something in CA has been banned
(declared an assault weapon, 50BMG rifle, etc.) there has been a method for existing owners to continue retain their property via registration w/DOJ, or 'unsafe' handguns still transferable via F2F PPT or sold out of state. So there are no seizure issues. In addition, the guns can be sold/inherited out of state, so they are not legally 'dead' items without value.

Other state legislatures attempting to draft AW laws seem to be leaning to a total ban instead of registration with allowance for existing lawful users to retain/register them etc. - that is, a case even WORSE than California's. This may perhaps lead to a good court fight due to deprivation of existing property.

Bill Wiese
San Jose
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  #10  
Old 04-15-2005, 10:13 AM
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just called S&W, they're sending me out a call tag.
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  #11  
Old 04-17-2005, 5:47 PM
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Quote:
Alles wrote:
The gun on the approved list has a short barrel. If mine has the 5" barrel are they just going to amputate it?
I believe the orig gun that was actually an illegal AW was nevertheless DOJ approved as a handgun (drop test, etc.) for the barrel length in question. So on just a 'safety test' basis that handgun was legally sold and in your possession. The only reason it was illegal was that it is an assault weapon due threaded barrel.

Since the DOJ is acknowledging its screwup they are not, of course, prosecuting on its AW status. The gun was indeed on the approved list.

You will not have to worry about the 'approved' list - just get the non-AW update and you're good to go.


Bill Wiese
San Jose
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  #12  
Old 04-14-2005, 2:14 PM
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I just got mine today as well. I dont think they had to look for me it has been back to their factory 3 time already. What is once more? I guess we dont have any recource. I hope it does not change anything in the maechanics, I just got it back in firing order finally after 2 years.
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2005, 3:48 PM
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So how is the barrel removed on a CA "fixed" P22?
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2005, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Sent my P22 in last Thursday and just got it back.

I feel so much safer knowing that the diabolic barrel nut and wrench can no longer conspire to harm the people and children of California from the confines of my safe Roll Eyes

Did you hear that folks? He did it for the children!
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2005, 1:13 PM
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Patrick,

In my last post I was replying to Stator's comments, not yours.

With all the responsibilities of AG office, AG largely has a ceremonial gun control role. The DOJ Firearms Division is a relatively smal part of AG's office - staffing-wise and budget-wise.

And given demographics getting anything but a Democrat into that or gov's office will be a miracle - esp with predecessor Lungren's bible-thumping ways.

Again, most ALL new gun law proposals in CA arise from legislative staff work. In fact anything Lockyer might try to push thru Leg himself may well be rejected since he's seen as positioning himself for a run for Gov. - and some legislators may prefer another Democrat.

Sometimes tech questions may be asked of DOJ Firearms Div. DOJ will probably give reasonably honest answers about tech functioning of weapons: I am sure they've already told Koretz that AB352 is impractical - but does Koretz care??

Bill Wiese
San Jose
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2005, 5:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bwiese:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PatrickM.:
The CA DOJ can Kiss my white A#$!!!
{...snip...}
this is so stupid....i hope you CA people will have that guy voted out of office!!!!
Irrelevant.

Lockyer is only one guy. He can't pass laws.

Even if we had John Wayne or Rambo for state AG he'd need the state Senate and state Assembly to creat new law to override SB23 assault weapon ban. And the governor would have to sign it.

Bill Wiese
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your brain must have farted. Lockyer is the sole person responsible for writing the CA criminal regulations code which is being used to press for this recall. Voting him out of office (elected position) over this does send a strong message to others.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2005, 7:09 AM
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There was no label in the envelope I received. All that was in there was a box, the DOJ letter, and the instruction list. I guess I'll have to call S&W on Monday.
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Old 05-08-2005, 2:43 AM
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I had an issue with the declared value as well but sent it any ways. I figured they could relace it if lost. Call S and W with any questions regarding shipping they will assure you of your transaction. It sux but I dont need headaches.
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2005, 6:09 PM
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well, I got my letter last week, sent the gun out on Friday 4/15, and received the gun back today with the "certificate" of proof that the gun is now compliant.

The certificate is really just a computer generated printout on a cheap piece of paper with no watermark or letterhead, something anyone could print on a laser printer.
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Old 04-16-2005, 5:17 PM
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Honestly.....

The CA DOJ can Kiss my white A#$!!!!!!!!!!

they can send a letter to my old address but they can't find me...

I LIVE IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON!!!!!!!!

ha ha ha ha ha...Bill Lockyer Can't find me!!!

this is so stupid....i hope you CA people will have that guy voted out of office!!!!

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  #21  
Old 04-16-2005, 8:42 PM
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Haven't gotten my package yet.
I'm trying to decide what course of action I will take here.

I will be writing the Governer to inform him of what's going on.
I will also be contacting our various gun rights orgaizations to see what they are doing about this.

It would be possible for our lawmakers to change the law to allow these pistols to remain in civilian hands the way they originally were made.
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Old 04-17-2005, 4:58 PM
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The gun on the approved list has a short barrel. If mine has the 5" barrel are they just going to amputate it?


Not happy...does it show?
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2005, 3:19 PM
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I have moved since buying mine. I wonder if they will be able to find me.
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Old 05-11-2005, 3:08 PM
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Here's a question for anyone before I call the AG's office:

I have the letter and the shipping box. The Pistol, however is at my second home out of state, where I intended that it stay, or maybe get sold.

Do I have to bring it back to be in compliance, or can I fill out the form stating that the pistol no longer resides in California (and neither will I in a couple of years)?

TIA
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  #25  
Old 05-05-2005, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kantstudien:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
Removal of P22 barrel and keeping them locked separately, or purchasing a new unthreaded bbl should also comply with law - exactly similar to having a FAL clone with a separate pistol grip. Of course you could never assemble/shoot your P22 in CA this way until threaded bbl replaced, but the DOJ can't force you to have a working gun

Bill Wiese
San Jose
Actually, I do not believe separating the upper and the lower would be legal because one cannot even possess a threaded pistol barrel in California. It would be like owning an unregistered AR lower that was dissassembled, it would still be illegal. It would have to have the threads removed, be destroyed, or else shipped out of state if the modification is not done. Correct me if I am wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no law anywhere in CA or Fed law that bans possession of a threaded barrel - nor pistol grip, nor flash hider, etc., etc. Also, threaded barrels are an 'evil feature' for pistols only.

[You might be confusing this w/the Fed short barrel issue, where if the barrel is under 16", it had better have its muzzle brake or flash hider permanently pinned/welded on to bring length up to a 16" minimum. The BATF holds that possession of a less-than-16" AR upper with an AR lower is illegal even if detached, (unless one owns an AR pistol in his mix). This craziness is not necessarily due to Fed gun law but due to the Nat'l Firearms Act of 1934 being tax law.]

Calif. DOJ Firearms has said on their FAQ on their website (and in direct conversation with their senior managers at at a recent Calif NRA Members' Council meeting in San Jose) that removing certain evil features from an AW makes it no longer an AW even if registered as one.

So, if you have a P22 or HK USP Tactical with a threaded barrel, you can remove & replace bbl with a plain one and you are in compliance. And you can still retain the barrel separately.

(Similarly, one can have an Entreprise FAL clone, for example, that does not have a pistol grip.)

Again I'd be slightly cautious travelling with these items together (FAL + separate pistol grip; P22 w/separate bbl, etc.) I'd keep the evil feature locked away - and ideally not transited with at same time - from the gun so that a local DA wouldn't have raised hairs about this.

Bill Wiese
San Jose
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Old 06-07-2005, 6:25 PM
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I have a question,
I do not own one of these highly dangerous p22's, but is this fed-ex package signed for?
Is the letter sent cetified via returned receipt.
If not, how does the DOJ even know if you have received the package?
If it was left on your porch, whose to say it didn't walk off?
I receive important documents from the State, that gain them revenue, and steal from my pocket, and off the record my law firm has informed me that its ok if I never received them in the mail. The burden of proof is on the Government, and since the PO runs pretty much the same I have no worries.
I am not advising anyone to lie or break the law, I am just curious how this mysterious package shows up.
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Old 06-16-2005, 8:43 PM
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Bought the P-22, wife bought the shorter barrel and loves the gun. Received the envelope in the mail - pisser is that they expect that I turn one of the barrels into a flute? Won't reimburse me for the cost? Selling it out of state right now.

Screw them. Great gun, never a problem, fires anything. Not as good as my Neos, but it is smaller and lighter.

The other pisser is that there are other states where a silencer is considered to be the sign of a considerate owner and is fully legal. not here!

Think I'll look at an FN 5.7 to replace this one.
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Old 06-08-2005, 6:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Colossians323:
I have a question,
I do not own one of these highly dangerous p22's, but is this fed-ex package signed for?
Is the letter sent cetified via returned receipt.
If not, how does the DOJ even know if you have received the package?
If it was left on your porch, whose to say it didn't walk off?
I receive important documents from the State, that gain them revenue, and steal from my pocket, and off the record my law firm has informed me that its ok if I never received them in the mail. The burden of proof is on the Government, and since the PO runs pretty much the same I have no worries.
I am not advising anyone to lie or break the law, I am just curious how this mysterious package shows up.
It is sent via first class mail with delivery confirmation.
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Old 04-17-2005, 9:49 PM
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I have to agree with your situation Alles. My wife purchased this gun, after falling in love with it at the gun store, while I was purchasing a p99 .40. The thought it was so "cute," but hey, whatever gets more guns in the house!
Anyway, I purchased a 3.4" barrel for her within a month of the purchase, with the idea of swapping the 5" here and there. Now were going to have a paperweight! Its not our fault! Argh! Might as well send it out of the state, than bastarizing it .
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Old 04-17-2005, 6:42 PM
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Bill,
Thanks much for the information. The gun in question is the target version purchased from Traders in San Leandro, December '02. It truly yanks my chain that the state of California fouled up and is exacting it from my gunsafe.

Additionally, I wouldn't mind so much registering it, as I will with another firearm in my possession, however they are confiscating 3/4s of the value with their 'improvement.' Are any of your friends out of state willing to buy a P-22 that has been officially bastardized?

Your input is appreciated, I haven't received my package yet and am exploring my options. If the state fouled up by declaring the gun legal, the state needs to take responsibility. My point is they're the arbitrators of what is and is not legal. So if they failed to perform full and complete checks (feature in addition to drop) that's not the consumers' fault.

Thanks

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Old 06-16-2005, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EOD Guy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Colossians323:
I have a question,
I do not own one of these highly dangerous p22's, but is this fed-ex package signed for?
Is the letter sent cetified via returned receipt.
If not, how does the DOJ even know if you have received the package?
If it was left on your porch, whose to say it didn't walk off?
I receive important documents from the State, that gain them revenue, and steal from my pocket, and off the record my law firm has informed me that its ok if I never received them in the mail. The burden of proof is on the Government, and since the PO runs pretty much the same I have no worries.
I am not advising anyone to lie or break the law, I am just curious how this mysterious package shows up.
It is sent via first class mail with delivery confirmation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They provide you with a FedEx box and pre-paid lable for standard overnight shipping. It's also shipped back to you same way with adult sig required.
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2005, 3:00 PM
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4500*$225/per average cost = million+ dollar in sales? Didn't realize they were so popular here.

In any case, I finally got mine sent off via FedEx after a delima with the included FedEx Billable Stamp that has only Standard Overnight codes. FedEx policy is priority overnight for firearms. (i.e. kind of how CMP sends you Garands)

The kid behind the counter pointed this out after reading the copy of the letter from CADOJ and the instruction's letter. He then gave me a slip to fill out with me having to call S&W/Walther to get their account number to ship overnight priority. Yeah right. A couple of calls to S&W CS, head honcho at FedEx in charge of security, and regular FedEx CS fixed the problem. I dropped by FedEx with work stuff later this afternoon and once again stated "firearm" and "Special CADOJ Recall of the p22." This time the lady behind the counter smiled, showed me the rule book, asked me if I followed the rules, said "please wait while I try and put this into the system with an override to "priority" instead of the barcoded "standard", and lastly said "all set, have a nice day!"

Web site check now shows "Picked up by FedEx" Delivery location SPRINGFIELD MA, Service type Priority Box!

I was hoping that I wouldn't be the first one to send one back from my area!

I like my P22 a lot. Only a handfull of jams before I learned about the palm tapping trick with none since then. I wonder if the Neos is good to get?
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  #33  
Old 04-14-2005, 3:26 PM
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hmm...guess i need to give S&W a ring on the tele.
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Old 04-17-2005, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
For more information, consult your high school civic textbook on "How a Bill Becomes a Law" and "Separation of Powers". These concepts apply Federally as well as on a state basis.
I am well aware how a law becomes a bill....I have a Degree in Political science, i wanted Lockyer out of office because he advises politicans in sacramento about guns and all gun policies and if he is out of office he is not able to influence gun control policy making in the state. Politicans in Sacramento are so stupid they will believe anything that is said from a "qualified expert source". you guys in CA need to get somebody into the AG office that knows about more than just "evil guns kill people" but that sensable gun control measures work.

thats just my 2 cents...

PatrickM.
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  #35  
Old 04-14-2005, 12:52 PM
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Well it's official - I just got a pre-paid FedEx pack to send my "assualt" pistol back to Smith&Wesson to have the threaded barrel retrofitted so it's not longer in violation of CA laws

Thank you Bill Lockyer!
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  #36  
Old 06-08-2005, 9:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sbg357:
Excuse my ignorance here. If I understnad some of these posts, once the mods are done by S&W, you cannot change it to accept the 5" barrel. Is that correct?
You can't remove the barrel period.
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Old 06-02-2005, 10:52 AM
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ivanimal -

I've been lucky, this is the first trip to S&W and it's not for real fixing Mine's probably one after the first batch with the usual "new product" problems or users have figured out how to fix things themselves. Check out the web site below.

This web site has a good collection of information on the P22: Phoenix_III's website

Read this in Rimfire Central a couple of years ago from the guy who maintains the above site:

"Make sure to take care to load the magazines propertly... hold the follower down and gently tap the back of the mags on a firm surface to get proper seating. Improper seating = good ammo not functioning well..."

edit: not sure but Teds may have posted something along these lines as well a while back.

Quote:
Originally posted by ivanimal:
Whats with the palm tapping thingy you mentioned? I own a jammomatic. Although after 3 trips to S&W it is now ok, I think.
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:17 PM
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Whats with the palm tapping thingy you mentioned? I own a jammomatic. Although after 3 trips to S&W it is now ok, I think.
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  #39  
Old 05-25-2005, 10:10 PM
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What's the turn around time for the P22 "fix"? I sent mine in on 05/16, but haven't received it back from S&W yet (05/25).
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  #40  
Old 05-07-2005, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by EOD Guy:
I just got my box today. All that was in the envelope was the letter and a box. I checked with Fedex and they said it would cost me $38.00 to ship it to S&W. How are they going to reimburse me or do I have to eat the cost?
Mine came on Friday with a label for shipping, no cost to me as far as I can tell.

The declared value is only $100.00 How about that, not only due they devalue my gun becasue now I can't change barrels but if its lost they'll only pay me $100!
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