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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-31-2009, 4:54 PM
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Default M1A SOCOM II Accuracy

So, Here's my gun I was just shooting last sunday at the range,


I was all excited to see how it would shoot. Well, let's just say i was very unhappy with it's accuracy. I have a (new) Weaver Classic 2.5-8X24 handgun scope on it. I started off at the 100 yard mark with a front and rear bag on the bench. I shot some factory loads with it, and was getting around 5-12" groups. Wow, I just assumed I had some crappy ammo, so I switched to some of my hand loads using Varget and SMK's. Now I know the Socom is supposed to only shoot around 2 MOA, but I could only get around 6-8" groups with MY HAND LOADS????? I was fully supported on the bench and I'm a decent shot. What gives? I would be able to put maybe 2 or 3 shots within and inch, and then behold a flier would land about 5" away from the previous shots. So, I next moved to a 50 Yard target and it wasn't much better. Maybe 3-4" groups with the occasional flier. The only thing I can think of is I got a dud for a scope. Could the reticle be bouncing around inside the Weaver? I forgot my tools, so I couldn't remove the scope and use the irons. Are the Socom II's really that bad? I can't see a 2K gun shooting that crappy. What kind of accuracy should I expect out of this rifle? Thanks in advance,

Skkeeter...



On another note, I was really impressed with my LMT piston rifle using the new Eotech XPS, and PMC ammo. I was shooting 1-1.5" MOA using the eotech at 100 yards. An now I thought the piston rifle was supposed to be less accurate than the DI.
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2009, 4:59 PM
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Off-the-shelf M1As may not be ultra-match guns but they should do way better than what you're experiencing.

Even crap bulk ammo that's been sitting around for awhile should give you 2-3MOA groups @ 100yds

If your eyes are good try using no scope + iron sights and see how the rifle does.

Check if scope mount is loose.
Check scope - replace with another?
Check if any muzzle device is loose.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2009, 5:03 PM
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Yikes, can you get your money back?
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2009, 5:04 PM
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I just double checked, and everything is tight on the rifle.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2009, 5:19 PM
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Great article with some solutions

http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2009, 7:37 PM
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All I can say is check the op rod guide and piston alignment. Perhaps put a sadlak NM Spring guide (will tighten things up) or even Sadlak NM piston non Grooved. Have a competent M14 armorer Unitize your Front Band to your Gas Cylinder. Could go as far as having someone weld a rear lug on your receiver. Could try buying a USGI stock... umm some people have drilled holes in the rear grip area and epoxy carbon graphite rods in place to keep the synthetic stocks from twisting which is a common issue...
Hope it helps.
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2009, 8:17 PM
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Should shoot 2-3 inches even with crappy loads, with scope.
You say you shot "fully supported."

Explain. There may be a hint there.

Last edited by X-NewYawker; 08-31-2009 at 8:20 PM..
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2009, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
Should shoot 2-3 inches even with crappy loads, with scope.
You say you shot "fully supported."

Explain. There may be a hint there.
I was using these,
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=718994


I doubt they were causing me to shoot that bad.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2009, 9:02 PM
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I have a socom II and I get better accuracy than that. I personally think its your scope. A scope will make or break the rifle. That is why I don't have one yet, the one I want is super expensive, at least the cost of the rifle itself. I'm bummed your not enjoying the rifle yet. Hope it all works out.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2009, 9:22 PM
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might try dumping that scope and mounting a eotech with holdover calibration on reticle. love mine.
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  #11  
Old 08-31-2009, 9:41 PM
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Did you clean the bore before the shoot? more ammo info needed, is your muzzle brake tight? are your sights tight?

I have a M1A loaded I bought about 5 years ago and it shoots better than me with army surplus ammo.

These rifles do not like heavy ammo...stick with the light stuff.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2009, 9:42 PM
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I feel you brotha, dropping lots of cash on a gun that gives you serious wood only to be unsatisfied in the end. Try some different bullets or just shoot it more. My DPMS .308 upper shot like 5 inch groups with 168 FGMM! I was extremely pissed but then I ran some Aussie ball through it and i got like 1.5" 10 shot groups. Man I love Aussie ball. Anyhoo, Once I started rolling my own .308 my accuracy got even better. But it also got better as I shot it more.

Try some different bullets, different powders, and perhaps see how it shoots without a scope. My Loaded M1A pas printed 1-1.5 MOA with Aussie ball with iron sights at 100yds (3-5 shots respectively). Try to get a hold of Aussie ball. It really is awesome
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaTooM View Post
Did you clean the bore before the shoot? more ammo info needed, is your muzzle brake tight? are your sights tight?

I have a M1A loaded I bought about 5 years ago and it shoots better than me with army surplus ammo.

These rifles do not like heavy ammo...stick with the light stuff.
Yes, everything is tight as I already stated. The bore was cleaned before I took it to the range yesterday. I first tried Federal American Eagle 150g FMJ boat tail. That got me 6-12" groups. My reloads were varget using 175g SMK's. My reloads brought the groups down in half. Should I try lighter grain bullets? I still don't see how the gun can shoot so bad using 150g and 175g bullets. I'm still thinking it's the scope, and not my ammo, or shooting skills. I shot .25 MOA with my LTR using reloads and shot 1 MOA using my LMT piston rifle with eotech @ 100y using the same caldwell rests. I could load up some 155g Scenars using n550 and match primers to see if it will shoot any better. Those are pretty much top quality reloading components IMO. Somehow, I doubt that would make much difference though. So it sounds like everyone else's M1A's get 1-2 MOA, so there is definitely something wrong with mine. Maybe I'll slap an Eotech on it and see how it does. Anyone ever used the weaver classic handgun scope? I paid $200 for it, but am beginning to think I got a P.O.S. scope.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2009, 10:14 PM
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150 grn is fine...I would stick to the irons at 100 yrds to sort it out.

SA will stand behind there product. I would do some bench work with the irons at 100 yds to confirm the problem. Contact SA and send it back, I am sure they will take care of you if there is a problem.
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:06 PM
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I can hit a bowling pin at a hundred with the irons constantly with crap 147 winchester.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterbush View Post
I can hit a bowling pin at a hundred with the irons constantly with crap 147 winchester.
WooHoo...
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:20 PM
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In response to your query, Socom II's are not that bad. I can only guess from my desk but... I would sight the rifle with irons first, then work up from there.
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skkeeter View Post
Yes, everything is tight as I already stated. The bore was cleaned before I took it to the range yesterday. I first tried Federal American Eagle 150g FMJ boat tail. That got me 6-12" groups. My reloads were varget using 175g SMK's. My reloads brought the groups down in half. Should I try lighter grain bullets? I still don't see how the gun can shoot so bad using 150g and 175g bullets. I'm still thinking it's the scope, and not my ammo, or shooting skills. I shot .25 MOA with my LTR using reloads and shot 1 MOA using my LMT piston rifle with eotech @ 100y using the same caldwell rests. I could load up some 155g Scenars using n550 and match primers to see if it will shoot any better. Those are pretty much top quality reloading components IMO. Somehow, I doubt that would make much difference though. So it sounds like everyone else's M1A's get 1-2 MOA, so there is definitely something wrong with mine. Maybe I'll slap an Eotech on it and see how it does. Anyone ever used the weaver classic handgun scope? I paid $200 for it, but am beginning to think I got a P.O.S. scope.
weaver scope?! You've got a Weaver handgun scope on this thing?!
THERE'S your problem. Get a proper SCOUT scope, preferably a Leupold, and try again. The M1-A is a violent recoil impulse, and the Weaver internals might not be able to stand it. With 150 t0 170 bullets, your gun will definitely shoot better than this.

Did you get the gun knew? (just want to make sure someone didn't shoot out the barrel and then get rid of it)
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  #19  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skkeeter View Post
I was using these,
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=718994


I doubt they were causing me to shoot that bad.
I use the VERY heavy bags but they are still not like using a benchrest to determine your guns base accuracy. Those are light, aren't they? I think they're filled with corncob weight material.

The ones I use feel liek they're filled with cement:


Last edited by X-NewYawker; 08-31-2009 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 09-01-2009, 7:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaTooM View Post
WooHoo...


From the sounds of it he can't with a scope, so yes woohoo.
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  #21  
Old 09-01-2009, 8:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-NewYawker View Post
weaver scope?! You've got a Weaver handgun scope on this thing?!
THERE'S your problem. Get a proper SCOUT scope, preferably a Leupold, and try again. The M1-A is a violent recoil impulse, and the Weaver internals might not be able to stand it. With 150 t0 170 bullets, your gun will definitely shoot better than this.

Did you get the gun knew? (just want to make sure someone didn't shoot out the barrel and then get rid of it)
It's new and I only shot it 2-3 times prior to setting it up with the weaver scope. Here's what I suspect to be the culprit,

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=353309

I just assumed a handgun scope could take the recoil of the M1A. I know there are better bags out there like the one's you have, but still, that couldn't be the problem. They are cheapo's, but no way I'm that bad of a shot because my Caldwell's are too light. Thanks for your imput, and I'll look into a proper scout scope.
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Old 09-01-2009, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skkeeter View Post
It's new and I only shot it 2-3 times prior to setting it up with the weaver scope. Here's what I suspect to be the culprit,

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=353309

I just assumed a handgun scope could take the recoil of the M1A. I know there are better bags out there like the one's you have, but still, that couldn't be the problem. They are cheapo's, but no way I'm that bad of a shot because my Caldwell's are too light. Thanks for your imput, and I'll look into a proper scout scope.
I'd try a Leupold VX-II 2.5 power scout scope. I have one on my M1A Scout and I love it. I can get 2-3MOA easy with crummy factory ammo like brown bear and some milsurp I got (Portuguese I think). The leupold has unlimited eye relief and was specifically designed for the M1A Scout setups. They're not too pricey either, I think mine set me back $250 maybe.
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Old 09-01-2009, 8:46 AM
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Good info yong I'll check this out as well. THX
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Old 09-01-2009, 8:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MasterYong View Post
I'd try a Leupold VX-II 2.5 power scout scope. I have one on my M1A Scout and I love it. I can get 2-3MOA easy with crummy factory ammo like brown bear and some milsurp I got (Portuguese I think). The leupold has unlimited eye relief and was specifically designed for the M1A Scout setups. They're not too pricey either, I think mine set me back $250 maybe.
The only Leupold scout scope I can find is an FX-II, and it only has 9" of eye relief. I need around 12" for the Socom II. Could you provide a link to the scope you are thinking about. Thanks.
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Old 09-01-2009, 8:50 AM
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Sorry to hear how inaccurate your rifle is. You shouldn't have to do any modifications to any rifle to get it to shoot 2-4 MOA, so hopefully it is just the scope.

A couple of things that may help tighten things up a bit, that don't cost too much.
1. get a new, round, spring guide (Sadlak or Badger). - $40
2. If the front band is loose, consider shimming it. - $15

FYI-175 grain bullets may be too much for the M1a in it's stock form. If you are going to be shooting heavier bullets, you may want to consider getting a NM grooved piston. Otherwise, your op rod will take a pounding.

Hope everything works out.
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Old 09-01-2009, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skkeeter View Post
The only Leupold scout scope I can find is an FX-II, and it only has 9" of eye relief. I need around 12" for the Socom II. Could you provide a link to the scope you are thinking about. Thanks.
I think you're right it's the FX-II (I shoulda looked before I posted). The VX series are totally different.

The one I've got is this one: http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-...fle-scope.html

I didn't buy it form OpticsPlanet and you can probably find a better deal elsewhere (I think mine was on sale from Midway).

The 9" posted in the product description is BS. I was told when I bought mine that the eye relief was 14" but as far as I can tell it's unlimited. I mean, it wouldn't really work from across the room but it will DEFINITELY work on your Socom II.

The FX-II Scout scope is designed for the M1A Scout models, and as best as I can tell from the pic of your Socom II you either have the same length of pull on your stock as my Scout or it's a little shorter, and you have more room to maneuver your scope mounts as well (the Scout's mounts don't really give any room to move them forward/back).

I'm 100% certain the FX-II 2.5x28mm will work great on that rifle. I can't say if it'll make the rifle more accurate, but it'll do fine.

Here's a Scout (not my rifle, apparently I don't have pics on mine on this comp) see where the rail is? If the FX-II works on my rifle it'll work on yours.

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Old 09-01-2009, 9:22 AM
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You may want to switch optics, but I doubt the scope is the problem unless it's a defective Weaver. I have about 6 of them, they're mounted on a 308, 8mm Mauser, 375 H & H, 405 Winchester, 350 Mag & 45/70 Encore handguns and take more "rock & roll" recoil than on a sedate 308 rifle, even with the recoil & op rod slapping back & forth. The 308 & 8mm aren't even braked barrels and I've had no problems. So if you like it, keep it but (again, unless it's defective) I doubt that's the problem.

I have found on my own M1A Scout that it has an ammo preference, it definitely doesn't like much of the cheap 147 grain stuff. I bought some British 147 FMJ at City Arms, gun did very well. Just my experience, I know it's aggravating as hell to spend big $$$ and not get good results straight from the box. I'd say try some other brand of good ammo, see how it does.

Last edited by dfletcher; 09-01-2009 at 9:27 AM..
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Off-the-shelf M1As may not be ultra-match guns but they should do way better than what you're experiencing.

Even crap bulk ammo that's been sitting around for awhile should give you 2-3MOA groups @ 100yds

If your eyes are good try using no scope + iron sights and see how the rifle does.

Check if scope mount is loose.
Check scope - replace with another?
Check if any muzzle device is loose.



If all is tight then pull the scope and try irons. My thought in looking at your set up is that your cheek-weld or the spot where you place your cheak and line up with the scope may be a problem. A problem here will cause you to view the scope differently each time as your face is not exactly in the same spot on the stock for each shot. I have a similar problem with a bolt rifle, and this can cause the groups to explode. Try viewing your target and slowly shift your head very slightly right/left and up/down and see if the crosshairs move all over the target - which they will. Some rifles will give an automatic cheak-weld each time and others take practice. This was one of the problems with the M1 and M14 sniper rifles.

150 bullets should be fine, and my experience with a std M1A is about 2-3 moa with factory ammo. FYI 3-6 moa was considered passing for an M14 rifle. As for your reloads, I assume you have worked up loads for the rifle. A load that is accurate and safe in one rifle may not be accurate and safe in another. For 150 grn bullets, your accuracy will be around M80 ball velocities or 2700 to 2800 fps.
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Old 09-02-2009, 10:20 AM
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I shoot a SOCOM 16 and was amazed at the out of the box accuracy. I set the sights to zero and used Irons and it shot just under 1.5" at 50 yards (short range first day). I have since run several tactical courses with it and use ONLY Iron sights now... I can acquire targets quickly on the move and have hit 8" targets with reasonable regularity at 200 yards while still.

If you haven't shot irons, I would highly recommend it on this rifle, plus you will quickly find out if you have a scope problem. You sound like a smart guy, so no offense intended, I consider myself a good shooter and I never send a rifle back without letting one of my buddies fire it... but if that sucker won't ring true on 4" steel at 100 yards send it back!

My SOCOM and my XD are my most used and the weapons I would most readily trust my life to. Some of the shiny expensive stuff is nice in the pistols.. love my 1911, and those AR black rifles are tacti-cool... but Springfield makes really reliable stuff in my experience. I have had both guns just full of dirt and sand and they kept running. So, sorry your having a **** time of this but I think you chose a great rifle... if it won't kick *** for you send it back and see if the company behind the gun will kick *** for you.
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Old 09-02-2009, 10:39 AM
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I have the scout rifle with a 2x aim point on paper it shoots 2'' to 3''100 yd groups witch may not seem all that great but will knock steel hogs over ten for ten at 300 yards. What I'm saying is it may not be so great for small targets but Mine is great on man size targets. I hope it is a easy fix to get yours working the way you want it. I love to shoot mine.
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capo689 View Post
I shoot a SOCOM 16 and was amazed at the out of the box accuracy. I set the sights to zero and used Irons and it shot just under 1.5" at 50 yards (short range first day). I have since run several tactical courses with it and use ONLY Iron sights now... I can acquire targets quickly on the move and have hit 8" targets with reasonable regularity at 200 yards while still.

If you haven't shot irons, I would highly recommend it on this rifle, plus you will quickly find out if you have a scope problem. You sound like a smart guy, so no offense intended, I consider myself a good shooter and I never send a rifle back without letting one of my buddies fire it... but if that sucker won't ring true on 4" steel at 100 yards send it back!

My SOCOM and my XD are my most used and the weapons I would most readily trust my life to. Some of the shiny expensive stuff is nice in the pistols.. love my 1911, and those AR black rifles are tacti-cool... but Springfield makes really reliable stuff in my experience. I have had both guns just full of dirt and sand and they kept running. So, sorry your having a **** time of this but I think you chose a great rifle... if it won't kick *** for you send it back and see if the company behind the gun will kick *** for you.
I'm returning the Weaver, and ordered a Leupold FX-II 2.5 scout riflescope. I'll definitely shoot it with just the irons next time at the range. Good advice as I'll let a buddy shoot it as well to see if I'm not compatible with the rifle
(like a human with a prawn weapon).
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  #32  
Old 11-16-2009, 1:07 PM
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Sheepdog1968 Sheepdog1968 is offline
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How did the Leupold FX-II 2.5 Scout riflescope work out on your SOCOM? Are you now shooting better groups?
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I think Thor's hammer was an 45-70 lever action loaded with Garrett cartridges.

I find that 90% of the questions asked here have been answered 20 or more years ago by Jeff in hid Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip books.


"Taking a rifle to a gunfight is the equivalent of taking a chainsaw to a knife fight." Lt. Col. Grossman in On Combat (Sec 2, Ch 1)

Last edited by Sheepdog1968; 11-16-2009 at 4:02 PM..
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Old 11-16-2009, 1:43 PM
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brando brando is offline
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Bottom line - don't expect an M1A to shoot like an AR-15. They just aren't that accurate to begin with and like a Barrett M82/107, not really precision rifles in the first place. What they are, however, is fun to shoot
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