![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I know that mags greater than 10 rounds are legal if owned pre-ban. Fortunately, I had the foresight to purchase a number of (so-called) "hi-cap" AR mags before the ban went into effect, even though I didn't own an AR rifle at the time.
But in a legal sense, how does one prove that hi-caps they were purchased pre-ban? Sales receipts? What if you don't have receipts (or other proof of pre-ban ownership)? More importantly, how would the DA prove that you didn't own them pre-ban? Now for some hypothetical questions... 1. What is to prevent someone from traveling out-of-state, purchasing hi-cap mags, bringing them back, and claiming they are pre-ban? Let's assume the guy isn't stupid and only buys mags that really were manufactured pre-ban. 2. Isn't it legal for someone to move into California and bring his hi-cap mags with him? Isn't it also legal for him, now as a California resident, to privately sell his hi-cap mags? Again, how would the DA be able to distinguish these from hi-cap mags that someone brought into the state from travel? I'm not suggesting anyone try to break or circumvent any laws, I'm just trying to figure out how these STUPID (and unconstitutional) laws are being applied. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
1. Nothing stops this till you forget the 5th I suppose, but the reality is that it's still not legal.
2. Illegal. Even if you owned the LARGE CAP mags(as defined by p.c., damn I hate "hi-cap" being used to describe normal capacity magazines, not sure why that bugs me so much, but whatever) prior to the ban, if you didn't have them here you can't bring them with you, and you certainly can't sell them here. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
![]() |
#4
|
|||||
|
|||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for the second part, he could sell them if he wants to risk going to jail over 30 bucks. Very illegal. Quote:
__________________
If you live in the Sacramento area, check your Local Forum frequently to see how you can help restore Gun Rights. ---------------------------- I am fighting for OUR RIGHTS by donating $20 a month to the CalGuns Foundation through GunPal. It is time to step up, California. ---------------------------- With my feet upon the ground, I move myself between the sound and Open wide to suck it in I feel It move across my skin |
#5
|
||||||
|
||||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
In fact the law was written such that you just needed to possess/acquire the mags for a microsecond within CA before 1/1/2000 - no residency required. If you drove in from Arizona and bought a hicap in 1995 at the Pomona show, you - as an Arizona resident - can still bring that hicap mag back into CA! You can leave and reenter CA anytime with those pre-2000 hicap mags you owned/acquired in CA: maybe you moved out in 1998 with those mags and are returning today, or maybe you just left CA for a 2 day shooting trip. Duration of leaving CA is irrelevant - only that you had the mags in CA before 2000. In fact, the only folk busted for hicap mag violations are ones that get popped for stupid crap like getting stopped crossing the NV or AZ border coming back from a gunshow, having credit card info showing mail order purchases of hicap mags, openly admitting illegal acquisition, etc. If questioned by anyone about your mags' status, the only acceptable truthful answer (beyond "Get a fookin' lawyer!") is, "Penal Code section 12020(a)(2) only bans acquisition or manufacture after 2000; I am allowed to continue to possess these magazines because they were acquired by me in California before 2000." Period. I will note that a person who lies/perjures himself about hicap mag issues may be committing worse crime(s) than any mag issues. If in doubt about mag status, the only answer is "Shuddup and talk to my lawyer." Period. And while we do keep saying "possession is legal", only stupid folks would assert that possession of a hicap for a gun that didn't exist until after 2000 is kosher. Sorry, that just smells bad right off the bat - that might be one of the cases where you'd really have to prove otherwise (which you can't). Quote:
Quote:
But there's one exception: if that person did acquire some mags in CA before 2000, he can bring back those particular hicap mags into CA today. Calif. residency, or lack thereof, is not an issue - only that the individual was paired with the magazine in CA before 2000 and remains paired with it today. Quote:
Quote:
But please don't confuse illegality vs. abilty to get caught vs. a law that's essentially unenforceable (except for the stupid and talkative). The DA can't, unless the possessor screws up & leaves tracks.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 08-18-2009 at 2:27 AM.. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
were cool ![]() ![]() |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
This post (or its distilled contents) along with the Allison Merrilees letter (linked to earlier in this thread) should be combined and made into a sticky. It would answer just about every POSSIBLE question, real and hypothetical, about Hi/Std Cap Mags in California.
|
#10
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I'm sure this has been asked in other threads but since we have a new thread today why not:
Has anyone actually been charged and convicted with importation, sale, or manufacture since the ban? It just seems that unless you had a terrible lawyer, or the prosecuting attorney had receipts, that it would be nearly impossible to prosecute one of these cases seeing how rebuilds are legal (even replacing 100% of parts), and possession is not a crime. I'm not asking to encourage anyone to break the law- it just seems that with the "high-cap" magazine laws the deck is really stacked against the prosecutors. Every time I read one of these threads it makes me want to dig my granpa's old war stuff out of storage. He died somewhere around 95 I think (can't remember, but it was definitely pre-2000) and when we split up his stuff I took all his military gear (because I was very young and thought it was SOOOO COOOOOLLLL). I know there's a helmet (maybe two I think), some ammo cans, uniforms, a knife, tools of some kind, ammo of some kind (that has the tips painted red, white, and blue- I don't know why but he told me when I was young that they weren't live as he pulled the bullets and removed the powder a long time ago... don't know why), and all kinds of other neat relics. It would be so cool if I inadvertently had mags that would fit my M1A or an AR variant and not even know it. I don't think I ever even went through all of the ammo cans, though I do remember that there are some shell casings and medals in one (purple heart and such). I think I have three whole boxes of the stuff he kept from his service. One of these days I'll check I guess, it's in the very very back of storage so it'd be a damn pain to get. Seems unlikely there'd be any AR mags though- I think he was only in the military until the very early 60s and the last war he was in was Korea. Even if there were any in there I don't think I'd ever use them- I'm too young to reasonably convince an LEO that I had them pre-ban.
__________________
01001100 01100101 01100001 01110010 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110011 01110111 01101001 01101101 00100000 01001001 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100100 01101111 01110111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100001 01110010 01101001 01111010 01101111 01101110 01100001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01111001 00101110 ![]() |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
I heard this topic before. Its easy, if You give a specific example. If say You own a Beretta 92 or Sig 226 and have several high caps its one thing. If You got and XD45 with few Hi Caps it will tough to explain how You got them.
|
#13
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Here is another angle no one has mentioned...from 1994/5 til 2004 (correct me on the time frame if needed) NEWLY made 'hicap' mags had to be stamped with a date of mfr or were stamped 'leo/military use only'(what a bunch of F&*^K) -sorry anyway- IF you have ANY magazine bodies that are IN ANYWAY marked that they were made AFTER 2000 then you BETTER have an old beatup mag body to prove you are using the new body AS A REPLACEMENT/REPAIR part..otherwise you are in some bad JUJU.....I think the nimrods who have been busted for mags have had newly made ones with date stamps or other id markings indicating post 2000 mfr.
Also,yea if you buy a FN-P pistol or some other post 2000 firearm and have 'standard mags'- as opposed to the 'decreased capacity'-ie 10 rd mags, with you and you get in trouble..you cant say they were preban because they did not exist then. Thats why tommy guns,HK 91,93,94, AR,FAL,M1A,AK,any PRE 2000 existing firearm is desireable .... Also, if you have and take any 'std capacity' mags wiht you out of PRK and come back with them...dont have ANY receipts,gunshow tickets, any papers that may get you in trouble EVEN if you did not buy any mags....just wen to look or stop by on the road trip. Cops and DA's ARE NOT your 'friends' in this situation.....and remember your rights and dont give them up..ever... Hope this helps also |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Dev blog for the MMO game I'm developing 'Broadside: Perilous Waters' https://broadside-game.blogspot.com/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...rilous_Waters/ |
#16
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
__________________
Dev blog for the MMO game I'm developing 'Broadside: Perilous Waters' https://broadside-game.blogspot.com/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...rilous_Waters/ |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Nope
__________________
Dev blog for the MMO game I'm developing 'Broadside: Perilous Waters' https://broadside-game.blogspot.com/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1...rilous_Waters/ |
#18
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
There may even be some ongoing cases. There have been bogus hicap charges where cop/DA does not know that possession of a pre-2000 hicap is indeed legal. CGF represented a Calgunner in that situation and a SoCal PD has been reeducated: he has his guns and mags back (or is in LEGR stage - gotta check we made it to completion). Quote:
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#19
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
The hicap mag cases I know of were just bogus ones because they thought all hicaps were banned - or there was evidence of importation or manufacture. Remember burden of proof is on the prosecution. The only really worrisome situation is hicap mags for guns that weren't in production til after 2000. Quote:
Quote:
I'd love to be pulled over crossing the CA border and popped for possession of my own property.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
hi cap = normal or regular capacity
10 rounds = castrated regular capacity magazine IMHO, calling a regular or normal capacity magazine is not hi cap. and i agree with you. Kalifornia has BS gun laws!
__________________
˙ǝuılƃıs ʎɯ uı ʇnd oʇ ɹǝʌǝlɔ ƃuıɥʇʎuɐ ɟo ʞuıɥʇ ʇ,uɐɔ I TeamBosing Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/teambosing?feature=mhee NEED LEAD BULLETS??? PM ME! |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
It would be a opportunity to do some education on the subject. Not to mention your early retirement do to a unexpected cash influx.
__________________
![]() Tom NRA Endowment Life Member CRPA Life Member NRA Certified Instructor Ruger Armorer Remington Armorer Sig Armorer Firearms Instructor |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
It would just be mighty convenient if I inadvertently had mags for guns I already own. Knowing my grandfather's dates of service, any mags in his stuff were probably for guns I'm not that interested in- though it is possible there're M14 mags in there. I didn't even really think about it until last week or so...
__________________
01001100 01100101 01100001 01110010 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110011 01110111 01101001 01101101 00100000 01001001 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110011 01100101 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100100 01101111 01110111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100001 01110010 01101001 01111010 01101111 01101110 01100001 00100000 01100010 01100001 01111001 00101110 ![]() |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Use whatever you want in other conversations. Updated the Wiki FAQ http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...t_MAGAZINES%3F to add this thread as a discussion.
__________________
When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() Last edited by Librarian; 08-18-2009 at 3:30 PM.. |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
That's a pretty narrow, and I'd argue wrong, view of morals & ethics. I would say a better answer is, "Not wanting to commit a crime."
__________________
Google Map of OLL Dealers List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers Click me-->So you're a n00b and you want to build an AR? <--Click me This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed. |
#26
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Concur. That's why I wrote: (so-called) "hi-cap" mags. Sorry, I forgot the California legal term is "large capacity". But whatever the word, "large" or "high", used to describe ANY capacity magazines (much less "standard issue" capacity magazines), it's still BS. And that's why it bugs us so.
|
#27
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
![]() |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
![]() Quote:
Somehow Kant comes to mind on that one.. |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
However, I'm most glad to help gun attorneys be well-compensated by the state. Anytime you can slap an LE agency, you do it.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
![]() No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#30
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Thank you and thank you.
In a previous career, I was a military intelligence officer. An ex-gf gave me the nickname. ![]()
__________________
"The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." - Justice Alex Kozinski, 9th US Circuit Crt of Appeals |
#31
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
WRONG Date stamps mean Nothing. You can LEGALLY replace any or all parts of your 10+ round magazines with Brand New parts. That includes magazine parts made AFTER 2000 (PMag is a common example). And you don't need to keep receipts or the old magazine parts either.
__________________
Internet Talk is Cheap Man Up, Show Up, or Shut the @#$! Up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C74HgbjSCLM |
#33
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
or finding a couple of magazines in the dumpster or you found it at a range or or or.... like they said... DA has to prove it that it is illegal.
__________________
˙ǝuılƃıs ʎɯ uı ʇnd oʇ ɹǝʌǝlɔ ƃuıɥʇʎuɐ ɟo ʞuıɥʇ ʇ,uɐɔ I TeamBosing Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/teambosing?feature=mhee NEED LEAD BULLETS??? PM ME! |
#34
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
But is there anything ethically and morally wrong with possessing a "large-capacity" magazine? Clearly there is not, even by California's cockeyed standards, as it's lawful for some California residents to own and use large-capacity magazines (seems to me that this law could be fought on an equal protection clause, but I'm not a lawyer). As for capricious, I can think of no better example than "10 or less rounds = Good, 11 or more rounds = Evil". Last I heard, the only thing morally significant about the number ten had to do with stone tablets and the word of God. Now let's take this argument a step further... what if the law is not only capricious, but is also unjust and violates an even higher law? Despite the word-smithing, parsing, and revisionist "living document" interpretation of modern day would-be tyrants (and their useful idiots), the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution clearly states that our right to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed. I read no exception in that amendment for so-called "large capacity" magazines. What most people fail to realize is that the Bill of Rights does not grant us any rights. It affirmatively declares that we, the people, innately possess these INALIENABLE natural rights by birth and by existence. The purpose of the Bill of Rights is NOT to tell us what we can do, but to RESTRICT THE GOVERNMENT from violating our natural rights. That said, I am not saying that I intend to violate SB 23, as capricious and unjust and unconstitutional as it may be. Even though my natural inalienable rights trump ANY laws written by the city, state, or federal governments, I do not have the resources to solely fight the growing tyranny of our current governments. Nor am I advocating that anyone else do so either. (Although we should do everything possible to overturn this law and every other unconstitutional infringement on our rights.) My point for this thesis is to convince you that it is not analogous to compare the "illegal" act of possessing post-ban large capacity magazines with that of shoplifting or robbing a liquor store.
__________________
"The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." - Justice Alex Kozinski, 9th US Circuit Crt of Appeals |
#35
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I wouldn't trust that ammo to be inert until you personally have the bullets pulled and the primers removed. After that, I would drill the cases before replacing the bullets so the cartridges could never be confused with live ammo.
__________________
"The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed—where the government refuses to stand for re-election and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake free people get to make only once." - Justice Alex Kozinski, 9th US Circuit Crt of Appeals |
#36
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
If one is arrested for some other gun-related charge, then it's likely a mag charge might be tossed in to see if it would 'stick'.
__________________
When a Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, Pursuing Invariably the Same Object, Evinces a Design to Reduce Them [I.E. the People] Under Absolute Despotism, It Is Their Right, It Is Their Duty, to Throw off Such Government, and to Provide New Guards for Their Future Security.” "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Consider Samizdat; consider some reading material, such as this and that. Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. ![]() |
#37
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
from bwiese-
Quote: Originally Posted by DisgruntledReaper Here is another angle no one has mentioned...from 1994/5 til 2004 (correct me on the time frame if needed) NEWLY made 'hicap' mags had to be stamped with a date of mfr or were stamped 'leo/military use only'(what a bunch of F&*^K) -sorry anyway- IF you have ANY magazine bodies that are IN ANYWAY marked that they were made AFTER 2000 then you BETTER have an old beatup mag body to prove you are using the new body AS A REPLACEMENT/REPAIR part..otherwise you are in some bad JUJU.....I think the nimrods who have been busted for mags have had newly made ones with date stamps or other id markings indicating post 2000 mfr. Wrong. Marked items on mag tubes are not probative since it's entirely legal to replace mag parts for repair. The hicap mag cases I know of were just bogus ones because they thought all hicaps were banned - or there was evidence of importation or manufacture. Remember burden of proof is on the prosecution. What I meant was ,as i was informed on more than 1 occasion, is that IF you have a mag body dated post 2000 and for some stupid reason you get arrested or charged with illegal hicaps DUE to the date on a mag body,if you retain the original mag body to basically tell them to eff off because it is a replacement part and NO NEW MAG was made..that is the point i was trying to make. By having a post 2000 hicap mag body mag in your possession gives them cause to say tou illegally obtained it ,even though they have to prove it..would they not use the dated part AS PROOF to someone's supposed guilt? if someone produced a beat or damaged body,it would negate the accusation right there....correct me if wrong.... |
#38
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
BTW-glad to see a fellow member in Tustin..I am located here also...howya doin? |
#39
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
On a related note: is there any legal concern using large cap mags in a firearm that did not originally come with those? Two hypotheticals specifically come to mind:
scenario A: owner of a Gen 1 or Gen 2 Glock Model 22. Purchased in CA, came with 15 (or 16? I don't recall now) round mags. Owner purchases a Glock 35C, which come with 10-round mags. Mags are essentially identical other than number of rounds - is it trouble if the G22 mag is used with the G35? scenario B: owner of pre-ban hi-cap Mini-30 mags purchases a Ruger mini-68; the Mini-30 mags sort of work in the Mini-68. Any legal troubles there? |
#40
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
i think as long as the magazines are not modified to the point where you can't use them in the original gun that the pre-ban mags were made for, it is ok to use them in other guns that can take the magazines.
|
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |