[spencerhut]

Originally Posted by Liberty1

CCW holders can legally do the same in CA (171c PC). (whether or not the CHP guards would recognize the exemption is another thing)

I'd really like to know if it is permissible to CCW in the State Capitol. I'm up there all the time and have stayed away since I don't like going places I can not CCW.

[hawk1]

Don't drink the water while you're there.

[Pvt. Cowboy]

Without even looking, I'd expect that government buildings are off-limits to CCW carriers.

[spencerhut]

PC 171c- No LOADED firearms in State Capitol, legislative offices, Governor’s or other constitutional officer’s office, or any Senate or Assembly committee hearing rooms or on State Capitol grounds, bound by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets, Sacramento.

PC171d – Can’t carry/possess a LOADED firearm in the Governor’s, Legislator’s, or any other constitutional officer’s residences.

The definition of Loaded Firearm that applies to the normal law abiding citizen is PC12031(g) – For PC12031, Loaded firearm is defined as when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof ATTACHED TO THE FIREARM.

Is a citizen CCW'er "normal" in this state?

[GoodEyeSniper]

I thought the law specifically said that with a permit you CAN carry in state courthouses and the like, but that most officers in California interpret it as the opposite.

[Decoligny]

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part 1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(4) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(5) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(6) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(1) A person who possesses weapons in, or transports weapons into, a court of law to be used as evidence.
(2) (A) A duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a retired peace officer with authorization to carry concealed weapons as described in subdivision (a) of Section 12027, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, or any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
(B) Notwithstanding subparagraph (A), subdivision (a) shall apply to any person who brings or possesses any weapon specified therein within any courtroom if he or she is a party to an action pending before the court.
(3) A person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
(4) A person who has permission to possess that weapon granted in writing by a duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state or local government building.
(5) A person who lawfully resides in, lawfully owns, or is in lawful possession of, that building with respect to those portions of the building that are not owned or leased by the state or local government.
(6) A person licensed or registered in accordance with, and acting within the course and scope of, Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) or Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code who has been hired by the owner or manager of the building if the person has permission pursuant to paragraph (5).
(7) (A) A person who, for the purpose of sale or trade, brings any weapon that may otherwise be lawfully transferred, into a gun show conducted pursuant to Sections 12071.1 and 12071.4.
(B) A person who, for purposes of an authorized public exhibition, brings any weapon that may otherwise be lawfully possessed, into a gun show conducted pursuant to Sections 12071.1 and 12071.4.
(c) As used in this section, "state or local public building" means a building that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It is a building or part of a building owned or leased by the state or local government, if state or local public employees are regularly present for the purposes of performing their official duties. A state or local public building includes, but is not limited to, a building that contains a courtroom.
(2) It is not a building or facility, or a part thereof, that is referred to in Section 171c, 171d, 626.9, 626.95, or 626.10 of this code, or in Section 18544 of the Elections Code.
(3) It is a building not regularly used, and not intended to be used, by state or local employees as a place of residence.

[ke6guj]

yup, as per the PC that Decoligny posted, the law allows for CCW'ers to CCW on the capitol grounds. But as Liberty1 posted, the LAW may not allow you to.

Plus, IIRC, I remember someone mentioning that the grounds surrounding the capitol might be a park or something that has its own carry rules as well.

[Decoligny]

I haven't seen anything listing the Capitol as a State Park. PC 171c give a clear exemption for a CCW holder to legally carry in the State Capitol, and even in the Governor's Mansion.

171c. Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he is actually engaged in assisting such officer, a member of the military forces of this state or the United States engaged in the performance of his duties, or a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, who brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than one year, a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both such imprisonment and fine, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

[bulgron]

Originally Posted by Decoligny

I haven't seen anything listing the Capitol as a State Park. PC 171c give a clear exemption for a CCW holder to legally carry in the State Capitol, and even in the Governor's Mansion.

171c. Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he is actually engaged in assisting such officer, a member of the military forces of this state or the United States engaged in the performance of his duties, or a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, who brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than one year, a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both such imprisonment and fine, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

This is all like this because CCW is a privilege reserved only for Important & Powerful people. (They might be crazy and wildly irresponsible, but at least they're Important & Powerful!) If the law ever changes such that "little people" like you and me can get permits, you can expect there to be a battle royale at some point over these exceptions. I promise you, you'll start hearing about "loopholes" in the CCW laws that let the unwashed masses carry concealed permits in "sensitive areas" like the state house, schools, bars, parks, county fairgrounds, city streets, the lawn in front of your house, etc. & etc.

[ke6guj]

If I recall the conversation correctly, even though 171c allows for CCW while in the state capitol, the grounds surrounding the Capitol are not included in 171c, and is considered a state park. The thought was that the regs of the state park did not allow for CCW, so yes, you could CCW in the Capitol, but you couldn't legally get your firearm to the Capitol to CCW in the first place.

But, as I see here, http://www.calccw.com/Forums/where-c...tate-park.html , it appears that CCW'ing in a state park is legal, so that entire arguement about the state park grounds being a buffer around the Capitol look to be void.

[spencerhut]

CCW is a privilege reserved only for Important & Powerful people

Wow! You mean citizens?!?!

I are haz a CCW. Anyone want to put a fiver on me getting through the door?

I'll takes offers to bail me out of jail and give me a ride to the hospital now to.

[demnogis]

My last visit to the courthouse makes me think that public buildings such as are "sensitive" or "secure" areas where firearms can be prohibited completely except by officials or LEOs. A big sign next to the metal-detector at the entrance will tell you that weapons are, in fact, prohibited and illegal in that building. Not sure if what the sign says is true, though.

[Doheny]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

If I recall the conversation correctly, even though 171c allows for CCW while in the state capitol, the grounds surrounding the Capitol are not included in 171c, and is considered a state park. The thought was that the regs of the state park did not allow for CCW, so yes, you could CCW in the Capitol, but you couldn't legally get your firearm to the Capitol to CCW in the first place.

But, as I see here, http://www.calccw.com/Forums/where-c...tate-park.html , it appears that CCW'ing in a state park is legal, so that entire arguement about the state park grounds being a buffer around the Capitol look to be void.

The boundaries are spelled out in the code (in red.)

171c. Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he is actually engaged in assisting such officer, a member of the military forces of this state or the United States engaged in the performance of his duties, or a person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, who brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than one year, a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both such imprisonment and fine, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

[RobK]

AS I read it if you are a legal CCW then you are legal to carry on the Capitol Grounds. However there are some Sacramento City regulations regarding protests or organized groups of people, like no bandanas, size of the stick your sign is mounted on, etc.

If you are on capitol grounds as part of an organization it might violate the city ordnance.

Anyone with any more information please chime in, since many of us may be going for the tea party this week.

[Ron-Solo]

Originally Posted by GoodEyeSniper

I thought the law specifically said that with a permit you CAN carry in state courthouses and the like, but that most officers in California interpret it as the opposite.

Even with a CCW, you can NOT carry in a courthouse. You either must secure it upon entry or leave it in your car. LA County courts have places you can secure your firearm if licensed to CCW. We don't want them being taken back to cars for theft reasons. Even retired LEO's can carry in the courthouses. Same with peace officers on a personal matter. We're not going to hook up someone with a CCW, but you can't bring it in with you. These are exceptions based on California Rules of Court.

Once again, I'd like to remind people to look beyond the penal code when making decisions. There are a lot of other codes and ordinances that come into play and it can be complicated.

FYI, I am one of the LASD instructors for this subject matter.

Don't even think about UOCing. You commit the crime of 171b when you cross the threshold. Also, bb guns, pellet guns, etc are also restricted by 171b PC

I don't know about the capitol.

[bwiese]

I think until various matters are resolved in courts, we don't need more bad politics and more bad things to fight - some poor CCW guy in Sacto is gonna 'print' and things'll go sideways

We already have a bad UOC bill and a registration bill to fight. Let's not risk adding one more piece of drama to divert our efforts.

[RobK]

I plan on leaving my gun locked in the trunk but a few I have talked to plan on taking there's with them. This is why I asked the question, some folks have common sense and others just want to push the envelope.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo

Even with a CCW, you can NOT carry in a courthouse. You either must secure it upon entry or leave it in your car. LA County courts have places you can secure your firearm if licensed to CCW. We don't want them being taken back to cars for theft reasons. ... We're not going to hook up someone with a CCW, but you can't bring it in with you. These are exceptions based on California Rules of Court.

Once again, I'd like to remind people to look beyond the penal code when making decisions. There are a lot of other codes and ordinances that come into play and it can be complicated.

FYI, I am one of the LASD instructors for this subject matter.

Ron, could you elaborate a bit on this? Is there a place we can read the rules you mentioned? (beyond the obvious PC 171b)

I've very lightly pushed the issue on a few occasions at the Antonovich Courthouse and never once have I been offered storage...

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo

LA County courts have places you can secure your firearm if licensed to CCW.....

VERSUS

Originally Posted by Ron-Solo

Don't even think about UOCing. You commit the crime of 171b when you cross the threshold.

I'd love to see the legal analysis justifying those disparate actions for otherwise legal possession of a gun...
.

[RP1911]

I used to know at least one legislator that CCW-ed at the Capitol.

[mej16489]

Originally Posted by GuyW

VERSUS

I'd love to see the legal analysis justifying those disparate actions for otherwise legal possession of a gun...
.

That one is pretty simple (not that I agree with it)

Posession of a firearm in a public building is illegal without an exemption (PC 171b)

A CCW (PC 12050) is one of the possible exemptions.

So, UOC and walk in the door = bad
CCW with License and walk in the door = ok (Though for some reason they won't let you past security and won't tell you why)

[bigcalidave]

You can CCW ANYWHERE in CA with a valid 12050 license, except Federal Buildings properly marked with a no guns sign at the entrance and secure areas of airports.... I'll point out that those signs aren't that common.... I don't see one at the post office. Unless the restrictions are printed ON your license.


You will not make it through the metal detector very well, but if you state that you have a license at a govt building with a metal detector they should offer you storage... Maybe I'll give it a try sometime, but I stay out of court as much as possible.


By the way, no I don't think that they should be able to make you store your weapon. This license should be all that is needed to be trusted with a gun ANYWHERE...

[packnrat]

Originally Posted by spencerhut

I'd really like to know if it is permissible to CCW in the State Capitol. I'm up there all the time and have stayed away since I don't like going places I can not CCW.

when are you going to be the "test" case???





.

[Sh00tFurst]

I wouldn't advice you to do that.

There's a time and place. That's not one of them.

[Doheny]

Originally Posted by bigcalidave

You can CCW ANYWHERE in CA with a valid 12050 license, except Federal Buildings

And polling places.

[Intimid8tor]

I don't know if it is legal, but something tells me the cop at the metal detector isn't allowing you through. I was there last week and it is essentially an airport scanner.

[Doheny]

Originally Posted by Intimid8tor

I don't know if it is legal, but something tells me the cop at the metal detector isn't allowing you through. I was there last week and it is essentially an airport scanner.

I agree. It would not even be worth it to try to enter the capitol while carrying. Save yourself the walk back to you car.

[Trapper John]

My sheriff made it easy for me. The last restriction printed on the back of my CCW reads:

This permit is NOT VALID on any school grounds, within any court house or court room, at the State Capitol or on State Capital grounds, in the secure area of an airport and any polling location.

John

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by GuyW

"Possible exemption" avoids the issue.

171b says no guns. No other law to my knowledge says CCW there is OK, hence it is still illegal - no gray area.

did you read 171b posted above? I'll post it again for you. Look at the bolded section. The CCW exemption is specifically listed in the exemptions to 171b, no greyness there.

171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part 1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(4) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(5) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(6) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(1) A person who possesses weapons in, or transports weapons into, a court of law to be used as evidence.
(2) (A) A duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a retired peace officer with authorization to carry concealed weapons as described in subdivision (a) of Section 12027, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in California, or any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
(B) Notwithstanding subparagraph (A), subdivision (a) shall apply to any person who brings or possesses any weapon specified therein within any courtroom if he or she is a party to an action pending before the court.
(3) A person holding a valid license to carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
(4) A person who has permission to possess that weapon granted in writing by a duly authorized official who is in charge of the security of the state or local government building.
(5) A person who lawfully resides in, lawfully owns, or is in lawful possession of, that building with respect to those portions of the building that are not owned or leased by the state or local government.
(6) A person licensed or registered in accordance with, and acting within the course and scope of, Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) or Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code who has been hired by the owner or manager of the building if the person has permission pursuant to paragraph (5).
(7) (A) A person who, for the purpose of sale or trade, brings any weapon that may otherwise be lawfully transferred, into a gun show conducted pursuant to Sections 12071.1 and 12071.4.
(B) A person who, for purposes of an authorized public exhibition, brings any weapon that may otherwise be lawfully possessed, into a gun show conducted pursuant to Sections 12071.1 and 12071.4.
(c) As used in this section, "state or local public building" means a building that meets all of the following criteria:
(1) It is a building or part of a building owned or leased by the state or local government, if state or local public employees are regularly present for the purposes of performing their official duties. A state or local public building includes, but is not limited to, a building that contains a courtroom.
(2) It is not a building or facility, or a part thereof, that is referred to in Section 171c, 171d, 626.9, 626.95, or 626.10 of this code, or in Section 18544 of the Elections Code.
(3) It is a building not regularly used, and not intended to be used, by state or local employees as a place of residence.

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

did you read 171b posted above? I'll post it again for you. Look at the bolded section. The CCW exemption is specifically listed in the exemptions to 171b, no greyness there.

Yeah, I'm wrong.
.

[Ron-Solo]

Originally Posted by GuyW

VERSUS



I'd love to see the legal analysis justifying those disparate actions for otherwise legal possession of a gun...
.

Well, possession of a gun in a courthouse unless you meet a qualifying exemption is a violation of 171b, arrestable as a felony. It's quite simple actually.

Believe what you wish, that won't make it so. I'm just trying to save someone a LOT of hassle that is easily avoided.

Aloha,

Ron

[Ron-Solo]

Originally Posted by mej16489

Ron, could you elaborate a bit on this? Is there a place we can read the rules you mentioned? (beyond the obvious PC 171b)

I've very lightly pushed the issue on a few occasions at the Antonovich Courthouse and never once have I been offered storage...

It is contained in the California Rules of Court, as well as a standing order from the Presiding Judge of the County, with is allowed under the state court regulations. I'm off on medical leave right now so I don't have access to the codes to quote them.

If you are licensed to CCW, ask for a supervisor at the information desk. In the past, many courts were telling CCW holders and peace officers on personal business (small claims, divorce, etc) to secure their guns in their cars. This was a BAD practice for theft reasons, as well as putting the officers and CCW holders vulnerable in the parking lots where security is minimal. Every LACo courthouse has a bailiff's office run by the Sheriff's Department, and each one has secure storage for firearms.

There is a learning curve out there that varies by individual and location. I was out there (Antonovich) last month fixing a metal detector and got a popsicle headache at some of the practices they were using. I had them all scheduled for additional training and a lot of it focused on their 'people skills' when dealing with the people coming to the courthouse.

When in doubt, speak to the sergeant or supervising (two stripes) deputy. They should be able to take care of it.

[paul0660]

And polling places.

And picketing related to a labor action.