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  #1  
Old 07-25-2009, 1:57 PM
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Default Dad's old savage

I was visiting Pops this month and he decided to hand down his Savage Model 3C .22 LR. He lives in Idaho and I have brought it back to SoCal with me. He got it used for his 8th birthday in 1950. It has no serial #s on it. How will I register this thing or transfer it to me?
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Old 07-25-2009, 5:28 PM
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Federal law requires that your father transfer it to you through an FFL, since the two of you aren't residents of the same State. Since it is a C&R long gun that is over 50 years old he could have transfered it to you at an FFL Dealer in Idaho. He could also have shipped it or taken it to an FFL Dealer in California to complete the transfer with you.
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Old 07-25-2009, 8:40 PM
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OK, so how does the FFL register it without a serial #?
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Old 07-25-2009, 8:51 PM
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Contact your local BATF Office they will point you in the right direction
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Old 07-25-2009, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboS600 View Post
OK, so how does the FFL register it without a serial #?
The FFL doesn't register the gun. Long guns are not registered either by the Feds or by California. The FFL just does a background check on you and then keeps a record of the transaction. When he logs the firearm he just puts "No serial number/pre-1968" or something similar in the space where he normaly puts the serial number. Serial numbers were not required on all long guns before 1968, so there are a lot of old guns out there with no serial numbers on them.

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Contact your local BATF Office they will point you in the right direction
The OP has already admitted on a public forum that he and his father committed Federal crimes. I don't think calling up BATF and admitting it to them too is a good idea.
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Old 07-26-2009, 8:55 AM
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The firearm can not be transferred through a FFL in Idaho unless they can submit a CA DROS. As far as the BATF goes, the firearm should have been shipped to a CA FFL, then the DROS submitted.

If both lived in CA, then nothing would need to be done since it is a long gun.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php
5. Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category PDF logo [PDF 10 kb / 1 pg] and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction PDF logo [PDF 481 kb / 2 pg] and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b).

(PC section 12078(c))
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Old 07-26-2009, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The firearm can not be transferred through a FFL in Idaho unless they can submit a CA DROS.
In this case the firearm could have been transfered through an FFL in Idaho if the OP went to the Idaho FFL's licensed premises for the transfer. The firearm involved is a C&R rifle that is over 50 years old. Because of this, it is exempt from California's DROS/Dealer transfer requirements if neither party involved in the transfer is a California Licensed Dealer. Actually, the Idaho FFL could transfer any rifle or shotgun from the OP's father to the OP, since "family" transfers are also exempt from California's DROS/Dealer transfer requirements.
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Old 07-26-2009, 9:22 AM
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The problem is that the two parties live in different states. While the firearm is over 50 years old and could be transferred without a FFL in CA, they both don't live in CA. That means that the firearm has to follow the CA procedure, which includes the DROS, along with the waiting period. The exemption applies to CA residents, not out of state purchases.
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Old 07-26-2009, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The problem is that the two parties live in different states. While the firearm is over 50 years old and could be transferred without a FFL in CA, they both don't live in CA. That means that the firearm has to follow the CA procedure, which includes the DROS, along with the waiting period. The exemption applies to CA residents, not out of state purchases.
Yes, the two parties live in different States. As such, Federal law requires that the transfer go through an FFL. Federal law allows people to acquire rifles and shotguns while out of state as long as they do so from an FFL, at the FFL's licensed premises, and as long as the laws of both States are followed. Since the transfer of a 50+ year old C&R rifle is not required to go through an FFL or be DROS'd in California, the out of state FFL can easily comply with the laws of both States in doing the transfer. California law does not require both parties to be California residents to get the 50+ year old C&R long gun exemption. If somebody from another State came to California and acquired a 50+ year old C&R rifle from an unlicensed California resident, the transaction would be in full compliance with California law. The parties would only be breaking Federal law.
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Old 07-26-2009, 9:54 AM
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At best, your reading is questionable. I am not sure that an Idaho FFL would do the transfer since they would not be familiar with CA law. I like your statement "ONLY be breaking Federal law". Breaking either a state or federal law can be bad.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
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Old 07-26-2009, 9:55 AM
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If you have a C&R license you can just pick it up.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:00 AM
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Since he brought it back to CA and has it now and since there is nothing which needs to be done with respect to CA law as there is no need to register it, it does not seem that anything needs to be done at this point. Bringing it back to Idaho to have it shipped to a CA FFL won't undo what was already done.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:10 PM
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At best, your reading is questionable. I am not sure that an Idaho FFL would do the transfer since they would not be familiar with CA law.
Do you have anything to back up your claim that my reading is questionable? The FAQ section that you posted from BATF's web site even backs up what I said. If you read the actual law in the CFR and the USC you will see that it backs up what I've posted as well. What part of California law do you claim would be violated when two parties who are not California Licensed Dealers (the OP and the Idaho FFL) transfer a firearm in Idaho? California only requires 50+ year old C&R long guns to be DROS's if one party to the transaction is a California Licensed Dealer.


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I like your statement "ONLY be breaking Federal law". Breaking either a state or federal law can be bad.
The "only breaking Federal law" comment was talking about your incorrect claim that the California 50+ year old C&R long gun exemption only applied to transactions between California residents. The comment only applied to fictional example of the transaction I described right before that comment. The OP would be complying with both Federal law and California law by doing the transfer at and Idaho FFL.
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Old 07-27-2009, 9:40 AM
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50+ year old firearms don't have to go through a FFL, but it does not say that the FFL does not have to DROS it if you do.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
50+ year old firearms don't have to go through a FFL, but it does not say that the FFL does not have to DROS it if you do.
Not all FFL's in California are required to DROS 50+ year old C&R long guns. Only FFL's who qualify as a "dealer" under California law are required to DROS 50+ year old C&R long guns. Just having a Type 01 FFL does not make you a "dealer" under California law. To qualify as a "dealer" under California law you need to meet all of the following requirements...

Quote:
12071. (a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:

(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).
A Type 01 FFL in Idaho is surely not going to meet all of the above requirements. So under California law an Idaho Type 01 FFL is not considered a "dealer" and therefore is not required to DROS a 50+ year old C&R long gun or to transfer a 50+ year old C&R long gun through a California "dealer".

So as long as the transaction takes place at the Idaho Type 01 FFL's licensed premises, it will be in full compliance with both Federal and California law. We are taking the OP's thread kind of off topic with this debate. If you want to keep debating this I suggest we move over to one of the other threads already dedicated to this subject...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?p=1740292

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=124921
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Since he brought it back to CA and has it now and since there is nothing which needs to be done with respect to CA law as there is no need to register it, it does not seem that anything needs to be done at this point. Bringing it back to Idaho to have it shipped to a CA FFL won't undo what was already done.
Since the OM had obtained this old rifle in 1950; it's just easier to say that he gave it to his son many years ago, if both men lived in the same state, when Jr turned 18. Lets just stick with the B-day present story...
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Old 07-28-2009, 7:26 AM
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Interesting how one can read the laws. That would mean that any firearm coming from out of state is not coming from a firearms dealer. I really don't think that would fly, to say the least.
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