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  #1  
Old 07-12-2009, 2:08 AM
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Default Should I carry?

Question for the LEOs here is should I carry my weapon? I was attacked, beaten unconscious, and robbed earlier this year. I have been off work for four months and just went back to work last week. The attack was by some gang bangers here in town. PD was able to catch some of them and prosecute. Others are still at large.
The beating was pretty brutal. I had a concussion, inner ear damage that is causing dizziness and hearing probs, damage to my left pupil, blurriness in my right eye, broken bones on the bridge of my nose and my cheekbone (the WORST black eyes you have ever seen), dislocated left shoulder, dislocated jaw, 4 teeth knocked out, torn ligament and torn meniscus in my knee.
Since I was carrying receipts from my business, a little less than $4000, I decided that I should protect myself in the future if something like this happened again. I applied for and was approved to carry a concealed weapon. However, I am still awaiting DOJ approval for the local CCW unit.
Now some weird things have been happening around my house lately. Strange cars parked across the street that start and leave quickly when I come outside. Voices in the backyard at weird hours of the night. Once, I forgot something as I left the house. A car had pulled in behind me, so I decided to just go around the block instead of backing up. The car followed me all the way around but kept going once I got into my driveway. I may just be paranoid, but these things have never happened before and I am freaking out.
I bought a shotgun for the house and taught my 20 y/o son how to use it just in case I am not home. I also bought a pistol after the attack for protection and I want to have it nearby at all times. I am getting antsy waiting for DOJ as I hear that they can take up to 90 days. I feel the need to protect my family and to protect myself at home and elsewhere, but it would just put a cherry on top of this year if I am sitting in a jail cell being processed for CCW while these punks are out on the street.
I realize that I am not legal to carry and am not asking for any LEOs to advocate breaking any laws. My question is this...If you made contact and found out that the person was carrying, would this become a problem? Are most cops willing to overlook this while I await the CCW or would most want to make a righteous bust from this? Again, I am not asking for you to tell me it is OK to carry. I know it is not. I just want to know what would YOU do if you made the contact.
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  #2  
Old 07-12-2009, 3:17 AM
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You have just been granted something that most of us in this state can not obtain.
If I were you I would not risk losing it by doing anything illegal with a weapon.
Just my opinion
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  #3  
Old 07-12-2009, 3:33 AM
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You obviously cannot carry concealed without a permit. YOU have to make that judgement. If you want to risk it then go ahead. If you get caught and the officer is not sympathetic to your explanation, then you just pissed away your chance at a CCW.

While this may sound kinda crazy but have you sought any type of counseling for your incident?? I'm not talking check yourself into a mental health clinic but possibly seeking some counseling to validate feeling etc....To some this sounds weak but you've been involved in a life altering incident that will forever be imprinted on your brain. Talking it out with a counselor could help.
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  #4  
Old 07-12-2009, 6:12 AM
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the big disclaimer...

1. i am not leo
2. i am not a lawyer
3. i pretend to be neither

having stated that, have you looked into other carry options as a 'stop-gap' measure until your paperwork shows up?

example,
1.unloaded open carry
2.as you are a business-guy, a locked briefcase wouldnt be out of line. a pistol fits nice in there

obviously, this is not ideal. but this, coupled with 'less than lethal' devices may give you the cushion that you are looking for.

my guess is that someone dealing with a face full of pepper gel (my personal fav...much better than spray, it goes on like mayonaise) would be occupied long enough for you to negotiate a retreat or deploy more forceful measures.

as these odd events you describe seem to happen while you are in your car, dont discount that as an option as well in your overall defensive posture.

personally, i would do everything that i could to avoid breaking the law. if caught carrying, that will cause your ccw to evaporate faster than a drop of cold water on a hot skillet.

not sure exactly what to make of your reports that 'wierd things' are happening. i do not doubt that you are seeing these events. but, are you seeing them for what they really are, or are you projecting your fear onto these events and seeing them for more than they are? i am not making a judgement, just asking...

another poster suggested seeing a counselor or therapist. i dont know if i would go that far (something about official records scare me), but a trusted friend, confidant, or whatever should be brought into the loop on your behalf, if for nothing more than a reality check.

you did receive a helluva beating. no doubt about that. certainly, you will carry scars both inside and out for the remainder of your life.

sorry that this happened to you. i sincerely hope that they find these losers and run them over repeatedly with a riding mower.

a question for you...
did you receive your ccw as a result of this?
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  #5  
Old 07-12-2009, 9:49 AM
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Get a ccw, but in the mean time you need to obtain the skills to defend yourself with out a weapon. What happens if you have your ccw, shoot and kill 4 of five but now you are out of ammo? You have to be willing to do anything to survive, and that might include ramming the barrel of your gun into someones eye socket until they stop moving.

I would look into some Krav Maga classes.
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Old 07-12-2009, 10:01 AM
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From when I submitted my final paperwork, (training class cert, fingerprints, etc) it was less than three weeks before I got to pick up my permit.
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  #7  
Old 07-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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First to the OP: I am sorry that you had to go through this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboS600 View Post
...My question is this...(1) If you made contact and found out that the person was carrying, would this become a problem?

(2) Are most cops willing to overlook this while I await the CCW or would most want to make a righteous bust from this?

Again, I am not asking for you to tell me it is OK to carry. I know it is not. (3) I just want to know what would YOU do if you made the contact.
1. Depends on the circumstances behind the contact and your attitude/professionalism during the contact. Also depends on how/when the LEO observes the firearm, you stating it or the LEO seeing it. You're not a prohibited person and the firearm is legal and DROSed to you?
2. On patrol, most LEOs will require additional information substantiating your claims regarding the reason you are CCW-ing w/o a permit. Did you notify your PD's comunity relations or Chief? Does the PD know about your situation? Do you have complete copies of the police report, CCW app? etc.
3. If the contacting officer had the background, he may cite or warn you for the infraction that lead to the stop and let you go, but if he didn't have the background, he would probably arrest you for the concealed firearm.
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2009, 10:21 AM
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I suggest you go to the approving agency...explain the escalated circumstance and ask for an expedited issue. They can issue the permit on an emergency basis and catch the paperwork up later... I've seen it...in Kern occasionally.
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Old 07-12-2009, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknow View Post
the big disclaimer...

1. i am not leo
2. i am not a lawyer
3. i pretend to be neither

having stated that, have you looked into other carry options as a 'stop-gap' measure until your paperwork shows up?

example,
1.unloaded open carry
2.as you are a business-guy, a locked briefcase wouldnt be out of line. a pistol fits nice in there

obviously, this is not ideal. but this, coupled with 'less than lethal' devices may give you the cushion that you are looking for.

my guess is that someone dealing with a face full of pepper gel (my personal fav...much better than spray, it goes on like mayonaise) would be occupied long enough for you to negotiate a retreat or deploy more forceful measures.

as these odd events you describe seem to happen while you are in your car, dont discount that as an option as well in your overall defensive posture.

personally, i would do everything that i could to avoid breaking the law. if caught carrying, that will cause your ccw to evaporate faster than a drop of cold water on a hot skillet.

not sure exactly what to make of your reports that 'wierd things' are happening. i do not doubt that you are seeing these events. but, are you seeing them for what they really are, or are you projecting your fear onto these events and seeing them for more than they are? i am not making a judgement, just asking...

another poster suggested seeing a counselor or therapist. i dont know if i would go that far (something about official records scare me), but a trusted friend, confidant, or whatever should be brought into the loop on your behalf, if for nothing more than a reality check.

you did receive a helluva beating. no doubt about that. certainly, you will carry scars both inside and out for the remainder of your life.

sorry that this happened to you. i sincerely hope that they find these losers and run them over repeatedly with a riding mower.

a question for you...
did you receive your ccw as a result of this?
Good point and good idea...I'm only speaking from my side as we see an appointed counselor after critical incidents etc..
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2009, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_B View Post
While this may sound kinda crazy but have you sought any type of counseling for your incident?? I'm not talking check yourself into a mental health clinic but possibly seeking some counseling to validate feeling etc....To some this sounds weak but you've been involved in a life altering incident that will forever be imprinted on your brain. Talking it out with a counselor could help.
this is a very, very important point. serious trauma can have wide and unpredictable effects: you may end up paralyzed by fear or indecision in a dangerous situation, or you might discover, too late, that you've responded inappropriately to a perceived threat. it greatly increases the risk of depression and of the emergence of latent conditions. physical recovery is only part of the process.

one of the worst things that can happen may not be related to your actual mental state at all! say you carry, are assaulted again, and respond appropriately with justifiable deadly force. the perp's family sues you in civil court, and their crafty lawyer argues that "the first attack on TurboS600 left his psyche shaken, he was paranoid and on a hair-trigger! but he ignored all the signs of an unstable mental state and proceeded to carry a deadly weapon." you can see where that would go. it would be a risky argument for them, but a plausible one. you could be totally fine, yet the combination of trauma+CCW would open up vilifying you and the LE agency that approved it.

it may be best for you to share as little details of your situation as is necessary to ask questions here.

on another note: i hope they nail all these lowlifes.
- emilio
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  #11  
Old 07-12-2009, 2:03 PM
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[QUOTE=TurboS600;2758673]Question for the LEOs here is should I carry my weapon? I was attacked, beaten unconscious, and robbed earlier this year. I have been off work for four months and just went back to work last week. The attack was by some gang bangers here in town. PD was able to catch some of them and prosecute. Others are still at large.
The beating was pretty brutal. I had a concussion, inner ear damage that is causing dizziness and hearing probs, damage to my left pupil, blurriness in my right eye, broken bones on the bridge of my nose and my cheekbone (the WORST black eyes you have ever seen), dislocated left shoulder, dislocated jaw, 4 teeth knocked out, torn ligament and torn meniscus in my knee.
Since I was carrying receipts from my business, a little less than $4000, I decided that I should protect myself in the future if something like this happened again. I applied for and was approved to carry a concealed weapon. However, I am still awaiting DOJ approval for the local CCW unit.
Now some weird things have been happening around my house lately. Strange cars parked across the street that start and leave quickly when I come outside. Voices in the backyard at weird hours of the night. Once, I forgot something as I left the house. A car had pulled in behind me, so I decided to just go around the block instead of backing up. The car followed me all the way around but kept going once I got into my driveway. I may just be paranoid, but these things have never happened before and I am freaking out.
I bought a shotgun for the house and taught my 20 y/o son how to use it just in case I am not home. I also bought a pistol after the attack for protection and I want to have it nearby at all times. I am getting antsy waiting for DOJ as I hear that they can take up to 90 days. I feel the need to protect my family and to protect myself at home and elsewhere, but it would just put a cherry on top of this year if I am sitting in a jail cell being processed for CCW while these punks are out on the street.
I realize that I am not legal to carry and am not asking for any LEOs to advocate breaking any laws. My question is this...If you made contact and found out that the person was carrying, would this become a problem? Are most cops willing to overlook this while I await the CCW or would most want to make a righteous bust from this? Again, I am not asking for you to tell me it is OK to carry. I know it is not. I just want to know what would YOU do if you made the contact.[/QUOTE]


First off allow me to say how sorry i am to hear of this happening to you. Let me ask this: Did you have to appear at the trials for the arrested felons? How many were caught and porsecuted? How many would you estimate thre were total from the outset if you remember? During the trials, were any people looking like gangbangers staring at you from the audience? Did anybody congregate near you car at the end of each trial? Do you have any proof that your approved CCW paperwork from the SO or PD is in progress? That would be a big element for me to consider. I'd go to the issuing agency with you report of "strange things happening" and see if they can cut an emergency order. Ultimately, I want to tell you that I'd be cool with your CCW situation. In the end, if supervision got involved somehow, I really don't know. I realize that my response probably does not answer your question as positively and as completley as you'd like.
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Old 07-12-2009, 4:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_B View Post
You obviously cannot carry concealed without a permit. YOU have to make that judgement. If you want to risk it then go ahead. If you get caught and the officer is not sympathetic to your explanation, then you just pissed away your chance at a CCW.

While this may sound kinda crazy but have you sought any type of counseling for your incident?? I'm not talking check yourself into a mental health clinic but possibly seeking some counseling to validate feeling etc....To some this sounds weak but you've been involved in a life altering incident that will forever be imprinted on your brain. Talking it out with a counselor could help.
Sounds "crazy" to seek counseling after an attack...good one. Point well taken. I did seek counseling at the behest of my brother. I was having trouble sleeping after the attack and my wife was saying that I was not acting normal. The counseling was helpful, but not nearly as helpful as when the investigator told me that they had perps in custody. What a relief!

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknow View Post
the big disclaimer...

1. i am not leo
2. i am not a lawyer
3. i pretend to be neither

having stated that, have you looked into other carry options as a 'stop-gap' measure until your paperwork shows up?

example,
1.unloaded open carry
2.as you are a business-guy, a locked briefcase wouldnt be out of line. a pistol fits nice in there

obviously, this is not ideal. but this, coupled with 'less than lethal' devices may give you the cushion that you are looking for.

my guess is that someone dealing with a face full of pepper gel (my personal fav...much better than spray, it goes on like mayonaise) would be occupied long enough for you to negotiate a retreat or deploy more forceful measures.

as these odd events you describe seem to happen while you are in your car, dont discount that as an option as well in your overall defensive posture.

personally, i would do everything that i could to avoid breaking the law. if caught carrying, that will cause your ccw to evaporate faster than a drop of cold water on a hot skillet.

not sure exactly what to make of your reports that 'wierd things' are happening. i do not doubt that you are seeing these events. but, are you seeing them for what they really are, or are you projecting your fear onto these events and seeing them for more than they are? i am not making a judgement, just asking...

another poster suggested seeing a counselor or therapist. i dont know if i would go that far (something about official records scare me), but a trusted friend, confidant, or whatever should be brought into the loop on your behalf, if for nothing more than a reality check.

you did receive a helluva beating. no doubt about that. certainly, you will carry scars both inside and out for the remainder of your life.

sorry that this happened to you. i sincerely hope that they find these losers and run them over repeatedly with a riding mower.

a question for you...
did you receive your ccw as a result of this?
To answer your question first, yes, the incident was a major factor in getting approved. I think your suggestion about less lethal weapons is helpful. The last thing I need is the CCW to go away. I just couldn't go through that kind of beating again.

[QUOTE=Fire in the Hole;2760111]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboS600 View Post
Question for the LEOs here is should I carry my weapon? I was attacked, beaten unconscious, and robbed earlier this year. I have been off work for four months and just went back to work last week. The attack was by some gang bangers here in town. PD was able to catch some of them and prosecute. Others are still at large.
The beating was pretty brutal. I had a concussion, inner ear damage that is causing dizziness and hearing probs, damage to my left pupil, blurriness in my right eye, broken bones on the bridge of my nose and my cheekbone (the WORST black eyes you have ever seen), dislocated left shoulder, dislocated jaw, 4 teeth knocked out, torn ligament and torn meniscus in my knee.
Since I was carrying receipts from my business, a little less than $4000, I decided that I should protect myself in the future if something like this happened again. I applied for and was approved to carry a concealed weapon. However, I am still awaiting DOJ approval for the local CCW unit.
Now some weird things have been happening around my house lately. Strange cars parked across the street that start and leave quickly when I come outside. Voices in the backyard at weird hours of the night. Once, I forgot something as I left the house. A car had pulled in behind me, so I decided to just go around the block instead of backing up. The car followed me all the way around but kept going once I got into my driveway. I may just be paranoid, but these things have never happened before and I am freaking out.
I bought a shotgun for the house and taught my 20 y/o son how to use it just in case I am not home. I also bought a pistol after the attack for protection and I want to have it nearby at all times. I am getting antsy waiting for DOJ as I hear that they can take up to 90 days. I feel the need to protect my family and to protect myself at home and elsewhere, but it would just put a cherry on top of this year if I am sitting in a jail cell being processed for CCW while these punks are out on the street.
I realize that I am not legal to carry and am not asking for any LEOs to advocate breaking any laws. My question is this...If you made contact and found out that the person was carrying, would this become a problem? Are most cops willing to overlook this while I await the CCW or would most want to make a righteous bust from this? Again, I am not asking for you to tell me it is OK to carry. I know it is not. I just want to know what would YOU do if you made the contact.[/QUOTE]


First off allow me to say how sorry i am to hear of this happening to you. Let me ask this: Did you have to appear at the trials for the arrested felons? How many were caught and porsecuted? How many would you estimate thre were total from the outset if you remember? During the trials, were any people looking like gangbangers staring at you from the audience? Did anybody congregate near you car at the end of each trial? Do you have any proof that your approved CCW paperwork from the SO or PD is in progress? That would be a big element for me to consider. I'd go to the issuing agency with you report of "strange things happening" and see if they can cut an emergency order. Ultimately, I want to tell you that I'd be cool with your CCW situation. In the end, if supervision got involved somehow, I really don't know. I realize that my response probably does not answer your question as positively and as completley as you'd like.
Actually, your response is probably the most thorough and answers my question the best. I want to believe that most LEOs would be sympathetic to my situation, but if a supervisor got involved it might necessarily go sideways on me fast. To answer your questions, there were 5 involved, 3 were caught, 1 was already convicted and 2 awaiting trial. I am appearing at all hearings to the best of my ability.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I think at this time it is unwise to CCW until I have the paper. I will take the suggestions of some to report the strange occurences to the PD and see if I can get expedited.
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Old 07-12-2009, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboS600 View Post
I will take the suggestions of some to report the strange occurences to the PD and see if I can get expedited.
Just report the occurrences... Let the agency decide if things need to expedited. Make note of those case numbers for the other strange stuff as it might become useful later.
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Old 07-12-2009, 7:41 PM
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I too am sorry to read about your incident. I'm also pleased to read that three of the suspects have been arrested. Some good comments from the folks here.

The comment by fullrearview may seem extreme but I can tell you from firsthand experience that when the SHTF it is an all out, no holds barred, do whatever it takes to win mentality that will help you to get through it.

I also agree with Fire In The Hole's comments. There really are a lot of understanding LEOs out there and contrary to the opinions of some here on CG, it is not the good people we are looking to make miserable. I would like to add that the comments FITH and you made about a supervisor showing up and FUBAR'ing the situation is not always the case. Contrary to what some (inside and outside of LE) may think there are a few of us left in supervision who still have our brain stem attached and have a strong enough spine to do what is right...not only for the citizens but for our people as well.

Stay strong, keep fighting the good fight and things will work out.
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Old 07-12-2009, 8:02 PM
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Sorry about your incident, that really does suck. If you can without putting yourself in jeopardy, if you notice a car that is not from your area sitting outside your house, make note of the time, lic number of car, any description of occupant(s) and report this to local LE. I know it is easier said than done, and like I said, if you can do this without putting yourself in jeopardy.

If you are hearing someone in your backyard at odd hours, call LE and report a possible prowler. I'm not sure how you are about animals, you may want to consider a dog for protection. There are dogs bred and raised just for this that also can be a family pet.

Hope all works out for the best for you and your family
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Old 07-23-2009, 8:13 PM
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You can always open carry, no law agaisnt that...
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Old 07-23-2009, 9:56 PM
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Sorry to hear about what happened, man. If the strange events are real, and most involve vehicles, I would suggest checking out these books/videos.
Might help you get out of a tight spot if you need to.

Good luck on getting back on track with everything. Must be hard. I can't imagine.

http://www.amazon.com/Survival-Drivi...8414572&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Survive-.../ref=pd_cp_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/COUNTERAMBUSH-...ref=pd_sim_b_1
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Old 07-24-2009, 9:24 AM
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Killing dirtbags is like a wet dream for me,
Spoken like a true ARMCHAIR WARRIOR. It is statements like this that make responsible gun owners look like crazed messengers of death and destruction. Do us all a favor and shut up. Stop giving the anti-gun people ammunition to use against us.

Anyone who has been in the situation where it is necessary to shoot another individual, regardless of the circumstances, realizes that it is sometimes necessary, but should never be a pleasure. Unfortunately, I've been in that situation more than once.
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Old 07-24-2009, 3:12 PM
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Wow, didn't realize my post came off that way, my apologies. I see it was pulled, so I'll take it the general consensus is the same.

Please allow me to clarify, if this doesn't help just let me know, I'll delete and move on from this one.

I didn't mean that in a tough guy/excess testosterone kind of way. I mean it in the sense that, I believe I would have no trouble using a legally carried weapon to defend myself. There is the added bonus that those attackers wouldn't be able to inflict similar misery on others, that would be the "pleasure" part. Again, not really in the literal sense, but let's call it a silver lining.

By no means did I say that in a literal sense. If it looked like I was literally saying I would take sexual gratification from harming another, that's far from what I meant!

You mention the term "armchair warrior". To comment on that, well you're right to some degree. The "armchair" part being that it's much easier to sit here and say what I would do, but I truly do not know...because I haven't been in that situation. The "warrior" part being that I came off like a douche, but I believe that's just me not communicating my thoughts properly.

Again, my apologies. I'll try to post comments with a little more professionalism in the future!
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  #20  
Old 07-24-2009, 3:17 PM
cedew cedew is offline
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And to get back on subject, I would definitely not count on LEO sympathy. At best you lose your gun, and they let you walk. They open themselves up to huge liability by letting you continue on your way with a loaded concealed weapon. I just don't see the odds of that happening being very high.

Do you have papers to prove where you are in the process? That might help sway a LEO.
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  #21  
Old 07-24-2009, 4:02 PM
Jonathan Doe
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Carrying a concealed and loaded firearm was a misdemeanor for the first violation as I remembered when I worked on the streets long time ago. LEO's have discretion on infraction and misdemeanor arrests.

Actually, almost 20 years ago, I have let go of one person I stopped, who had a gun on him concealed. He had a copy of 3 or 4 police reports indicating that he was robbed carrying the day's sales cash on the way home. A little store owner could not afford to lose the money. Well, that was me at the time. I don't know how the LEO's work on the streets now, and I cannot speak for them.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:28 PM
retired retired is offline
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cedew, thank you for the apology and clarification. The way it sounded is the way it was interpreted and that is why I deleted it. I'm sure everyone appreciates you coming back and saying what you did.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:56 PM
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Ron-Solo Ron-Solo is offline
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cedew, apology accepted at face value. We all hit the send button sometimes before reading it back to make sure we are sending the right message.

Aloha
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If You Heard The Shot, You Weren't The Target
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  #24  
Old 07-25-2009, 6:37 PM
Asphodel Asphodel is online now
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Turbo,

Please forgive me if I'm a bit 'blunt'........but no business, no $4K in receipts, for that matter, probably not $40K, is worth ever again chancing the level of injury you suffered.......like it or don't, face the fact that you will never be the same.

Sometimes, rational survival, particularly that of your family's health, really should take precedence over a business venture, no matter how good the venture, or how strongly you may feel about it.

From some of the comments above, its all too easy to deduce that some laws here in Cali are literally psychotic.......

Medical treatment today is far better than that of years ago, and, hopefully, your physical damage will heal, however long it may take, or however you will adapt yourself to the disfigurement you may be forced to live with.

Your emotional issues are quite another question........one on which d*mned few people are qualified to even guess, even the Police Chaplaincy people who, doubtless, will try their best.......You are probably the only one who will ever understand them, and it may take you quite a while to find the level of 'balance' you need to survive and re-develop your personal self-esteem.

There are other states, other kinds of business, and other ways of life.......continuing to be in a situation where you might be a 'target' for 'gang bangers' is not only not a good idea, but a seriously bad one.......

You make need years to recover from the anger you feel........this is just a 'fact of life'......but for the sake of your family, you need to find, in yourself, some way to do that.

What do I know about any of this? Why should I say anything? How about a 'now it can be told' story, from quite a few years ago?

I went along to be 'moral support' when a friend had to sign the papers to formally identify his younger brother's body.......and it took me a long time to be able to talk about what I had to see.

Some 'gang' criminals are more vicious than others.......try to imagine someone you'd known, but not very well, as 'just the younger brother of a friend'......and, as the result of some not-well-understood gang violence incident, had been shot in the back of the head with a rifle, at close range.........the mortuary people were ever so nice to us......but that document verifying his identity had to be signed........the term 'condition of the remains' takes on a rather horrific meaning, in such a circumstance.

Seriously.......even if it involves a major cost to your self-esteem now, 'play safe' and......whatever it takes, at whatever cost, find a way to re-locate your family, and make yourself a life in which you won't take the level of risk you previously accepted.......

As I said, sorry about being 'blunt'........

cheers

Carla
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Old 07-26-2009, 2:08 PM
PorkLover PorkLover is offline
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sorry to hear about that....I would "legally" carry a knife or pepper spray until you ccw is approved.....you could also get a dog......
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  #26  
Old 07-26-2009, 2:17 PM
Geo Geo is offline
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If my life is legitimately at risk the law doesn't mean ****.
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