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  #1  
Old 07-09-2009, 8:35 PM
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Default Rifle or Receiver: 4473

Out of curiosity at your FFL what would you require on an AR lower in order to mark it as a 'rifle' on the 4473 as opposed to a 'receiver'.

I ask as I ponder should someone under 21 wish to build an AR.

Obviously there are other ways around this, but let us say someone 18-21 comes in your shop and wants to 'custom' build an AR. Since they cannot directly buy a stripped lower what would you want them to do? (Besides have someone buy it for them, then PPT it later as a complete rifle)

Will you mark it as a 'rifle' should the lower be a complete lower? Similar to http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.p...roducts_id=697

Or would you require that it be a complete rifle before the 4473 is filled out?

Until the CA DROS system is updated to include other items other than handguns or long arms, the CA definition of a rifle does not seem relevant.

Federally however,
Quote:
18 USC 921(a)(7)The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
Any thoughts?
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:49 AM
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People under 21 cannot PPT lowers either.

If the lower has a buttstock, then it is a long gun. Simply add a buttstock.
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
People under 21 cannot PPT lowers either.
Correct, which is why I stated it would later be PPT'd as a complete rifle.

I was curious as not sure if only the butt stock was required for it to meet the rifle definition.
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Old 07-10-2009, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
(Besides have someone buy it for them, then PPT it later as a complete rifle)
This isn't clear. Are they PPTing it later as a complete rifle because it is actually built up into a complete rifle or are they PPTing it as a complete rifle because somehow you think the PPT process changes things?

I think you meant to say, "Besides have someone buy it for them, have it build into a complete rifle, and then PPT it."

However, having someone buy it for them sounds like a straw purchase to me. Just buy a complete lower.
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Old 07-10-2009, 1:16 AM
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Correct, I suppose the wording was a bit awkward.

I said that in the original post to avoid responses like, "Just have someone over 21 buy a stripped lower and and PPT it to the under 21 year old once it is complete rifle"

I asked the question as I was not sure if one needed an upper attached in order for it to be a 'rifle'. As the rifle definition mentions being propelled through a rifled bore. Although I suppose one could argue a complete lower is designed to have an rifled bore attached.
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Last edited by lorax3; 07-10-2009 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 07-10-2009, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
Correct, I suppose the wording was a bit awkward.

I said that in the original post to avoid responses like, "Just have someone over 21 buy a stripped lower and and PPT it to the under 21 year old once it is complete rifle"

I asked the question as I was not sure if one needed an upper attached in order for it to be a 'rifle'. As the rifle definition mentions being propelled through a rifled bore. Although I suppose one could argue a stripped lower is designed to have an rifled bore attached.
My ATF agent said if it has a buttstock, it isn't a receiver. The upper doesn't matter. What a silly, silly world.
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Old 07-13-2009, 5:49 AM
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Wes,

Did he put it on paper? I'd love a copy of that..
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Old 07-13-2009, 9:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jksupplyco View Post
Wes,

Did he put it on paper? I'd love a copy of that..
I think she e-mailed me. It is on the old computer though.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:12 AM
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The buttstock is mention in:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:01 AM
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not to thread jack but since we are talking about receivers i have a ?. since the fed say that a stripped lower can be made into a pistol or rifle and thats why one has to be 21 to purchase and i understand that, here is my ?. if a california dealer has to right down on the dros that it is a rifle when it is actually a receiver, how come none are willing to right down that it is a pistol if one assembles it into a single shot before it leaves? some say because it would be manufacturing, but if you look at it the way it is done now that would be mfg. also.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesob View Post
not to thread jack but since we are talking about receivers i have a ?. since the fed say that a stripped lower can be made into a pistol or rifle and thats why one has to be 21 to purchase and i understand that, here is my ?. if a california dealer has to right down on the dros that it is a rifle when it is actually a receiver, how come none are willing to right down that it is a pistol if one assembles it into a single shot before it leaves? some say because it would be manufacturing, but if you look at it the way it is done now that would be mfg. also.
To avoid the 'manufacture' issue it would have to be single shot before it got to the FFL. At which point it can be DROS'd as a pistol.

The DROS system needs to be updated to include other items besides 'long arms' and 'pistols'.
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  #12  
Old 07-13-2009, 5:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
To avoid the 'manufacture' issue it would have to be single shot before it got to the FFL. At which point it can be DROS'd as a pistol.

The DROS system needs to be updated to include other items besides 'long arms' and 'pistols'.
thats what i'm saying about the manufacture issue. dros requires a receiver to be drosed as a rifle correct? that would be mfging under the law.
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