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  #1  
Old 06-26-2009, 5:51 AM
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Default Best way to build a legal unregistered gun?

What is the best way to build a legal 'clean' gun with no paper trail?

Requirements:
- All parts shipped to my door, no FFL
- Accuracy not an issue, but needs to go bang every time
- Used parts ok
- Cost of gun parts to be < $750

1) AK style : Build receiver from a flat, add a parts kit
Pros : You end up with AK (that's a plus for me, at least!)
Cons :
- Requires many specialized tools to be made or bought
- Labor intensive build (heat treating, riveting)

2) AR style : Start with 80% Lower
Pros : After lower is complete, build is easy
Cons : AR parts are still expensive

3) Black Powder: Many kits available
Pros : Everything in kit ready to blue and assemble
Cons : BP isn't much of a defensive weapon these days

4) 1911?

5) Shotgun?

I'm just gathering information at this point. I like the idea of an AK build but the AR is attractive if it can be done for $750.

Opinions?
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2009, 9:30 AM
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Oxymoron.

Deduct 25pts. from Man Card.
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  #3  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepamjohn View Post
What is "legal" about a non-registered reciever?
An AK flat isn't registered with anyone, yet it's legal to build a firearm with it. It becomes a receiver after you bend it. (I'm only using the word 'legal' to make clear that I'm not interested in getting a firearm illegally....)
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beelzy View Post
Oxymoron.
what is an oxymoron?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepamjohn View Post
What is "legal" about a non-registered reciever?
long gun receivers are not registered. yes, there may be a paper trail on one purchased through a dealer, but there is no registration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sd_shooter View Post
An AK flat isn't registered with anyone, yet it's legal to build a firearm with it. It becomes a receiver after you bend it. (I'm only using the word 'legal' to make clear that I'm not interested in getting a firearm illegally....)
+1. This.
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepamjohn View Post
I would bet that here in California you will have some pretty good explaining in front of a judge if you get caught with it once it is a complete gun. Be carefull!
I think people build AKs from flats on a daily basis - there are even several build party threads going on at this very moment. I'm not talking about something on the bleeding edge of being illegal, I'm asking "what's your favorite gun to build" when not considering the traditional OLL or NDS3 purchased through an FFL. I know there are people building Stens, Uzis, MAC10s etc - one just has to make sure it's CA legal.
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  #6  
Old 06-26-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepamjohn View Post
I would bet that here in California you will have some pretty good explaining in front of a judge if you get caught with it once it is a complete gun. Be carefull!
the law explains its self.
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2009, 12:23 PM
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1 and 2 require specialized tools. However your can build an AK with basic hand tools. An 80% AR still need machining. Which you have to do yourself. I have never heard of anyone making their own 1911 or shotgun. An AR under $750 would be tough, you would have to buy some used parts to keep the cost down.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2009, 1:10 PM
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Shipping parts will likely leave a trail unless you pay cash and know the guy on the other end doesn't keep records.

No paper trail would require cash for parts at a gun show.
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2009, 1:19 PM
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the easiest ways ive found is either a buy a pre-1899 mauser sportsmans guide has them often they are not cheap

and another way is a steel frame black powder pistol and buy the r&d conversion cylinder

if you definition of papertrail is a 4473 form
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  #10  
Old 06-26-2009, 2:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepamjohn View Post
I would bet that here in California you will have some pretty good explaining in front of a judge if you get caught with it once it is a complete gun. Be carefull!
its legal ya moron!
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2009, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd_shooter View Post
What is the best way to build a legal 'clean' gun with no paper trail?
ummmm... buy the parts and build it?
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2009, 6:04 PM
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not to stir anything up or anything, but if i did my costs right, you can get an ar for around 700.

saw this place that had lowers for 109 dollars. then complete uppers for like 400.
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  #13  
Old 06-26-2009, 6:07 PM
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Complete with BCG for $400, wow. Whats the link?
Lower $109
Dros $65
LPK $70
Buttstock $80
Plus tax would be under $800 if you could find an upper that cheap, usually they are $550.
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  #14  
Old 06-26-2009, 6:18 PM
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1911 from 80% frame = Difficult w/o mill
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2009, 7:07 PM
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sorry, dont have a link but theyre were on sale a while back, like 2 months ago.

just went to dd ranch. can get upper and complete lower for about 800 not counting dros and fees and shipping
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  #16  
Old 06-26-2009, 7:17 PM
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STEN MK III build meets your criteria. Can be made with a Dremel and access to a welder.
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2009, 8:34 PM
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Federal law states that an INDIVIDUAL CAN BUILD a rifle for their OWN PERSONAL USE AS LONG as they adhere to all other laws regarding the differences between a rifle,sbs,sbr,machinegun,etc. ALSO the rifle or firearm cannot be sold for profit..that makes you a MFR and need a license. They DO reccommend engraving your name/city and a serial # on it IN CASE it is stolen..so it can be 'returned' OR they drag your aass in...

So as long as we all follow the effed up laws and dont make anything 'illegal' then you should be fine..just dont go spouting to everyone what you have done..the commie 5th column is all over this place..as we all know...trying to make us felons..

Besides lets say you make a M1919 SEMI from a kit and do all the mods to make it semi and a closed bolt, and make your own side plate, long as you have spade grips, it IS NOT classified as a rifle,pistol, but as a firearm so the AW technically does dot apply...just dont put a PG or a stock on it.....that will get the DOinJ buuthole irritated......get the prep h.

Hope this helps
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  #18  
Old 06-26-2009, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledReaper View Post
...

So as long as we all follow the effed up laws and dont make anything 'illegal' then you should be fine..just dont go spouting to everyone what you have done..the commie 5th column is all over this place..as we all know...trying to make us felons..

...
was with you most of the way but must differ with you regarding your admonishment not to "go spouting to everyone what you have done"...
many in the home builder/gunsmith community have been doing exactly what you warn against for years now: namely, doing completely legal builds and posting their work for others to appreciate and learn from.
can you explain why secrecy is needed if one is not breaking any laws?
clearly it would be a bad idea to break the law and "spout off" about it, on the internet or elsewhere. but if one stays legal, there is no reason why they must stay quiet as well.
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2009, 5:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledReaper View Post
Federal law states that an INDIVIDUAL CAN BUILD a rifle for their OWN PERSONAL USE AS LONG as they adhere to all other laws regarding the differences between a rifle,sbs,sbr,machinegun,etc. ALSO the rifle or firearm cannot be sold for profit..that makes you a MFR and need a license. They DO reccommend engraving your name/city and a serial # on it IN CASE it is stolen..so it can be 'returned' OR they drag your aass in...

So as long as we all follow the effed up laws and dont make anything 'illegal' then you should be fine..just dont go spouting to everyone what you have done..the commie 5th column is all over this place..as we all know...trying to make us felons..

Besides lets say you make a M1919 SEMI from a kit and do all the mods to make it semi and a closed bolt, and make your own side plate, long as you have spade grips, it IS NOT classified as a rifle,pistol, but as a firearm so the AW technically does dot apply...just dont put a PG or a stock on it.....that will get the DOinJ buuthole irritated......get the prep h.

Hope this helps
I was unaware of being able to build firearms for personal use like this (it wouldnt be the first thing I was unaware of!). Does anyone have mroe information and sources regarding this? Kinda peaked my interest here....

Sounds like a good project...right after my newly discovered ability to have an AOW in CA... This site keeps getting better and better..Love Calguns!
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2009, 6:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
1 and 2 require specialized tools. However your can build an AK with basic hand tools. An 80% AR still need machining. Which you have to do yourself. I have never heard of anyone making their own 1911 or shotgun. An AR under $750 would be tough, you would have to buy some used parts to keep the cost down.
It is possible to build an AK without investing much in tooling. You can either go to a build party or make a few basic tools with very little investment. Black powder kits vary greatly in how much skill and tooling is needed. The TC kit I built in '87 was probably made around 1970 and only needed minor fitting and finishing. I have other kits that have required extensive metal work and machining. Also, as a SD gun, I would not reccomend BP because, I don't reccomend keeping them loaded since BP is corrosive. But, I would not hesitate to use one for SD if it was loaded and at the ready. They will kill a BG just as dead as any other firearm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
Complete with BCG for $400, wow. Whats the link?
Lower $109
Dros $65
LPK $70
Buttstock $80
Plus tax would be under $800 if you could find an upper that cheap, usually they are $550.
Yep, I've built COMPLETE AR15 style rifles for less than $400 TOTAL! This was pre-O but, was still less than two years ago. Two builds were done only with parts purchased from this forum! So, right now, while it may be a little difficult to do it, if you shop around, you should be able to.
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  #21  
Old 06-27-2009, 7:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goober_0 View Post
was with you most of the way but must differ with you regarding your admonishment not to "go spouting to everyone what you have done"...
many in the home builder/gunsmith community have been doing exactly what you warn against for years now: namely, doing completely legal builds and posting their work for others to appreciate and learn from.
can you explain why secrecy is needed if one is not breaking any laws?
clearly it would be a bad idea to break the law and "spout off" about it, on the internet or elsewhere. but if one stays legal, there is no reason why they must stay quiet as well.
I should have clarified...you should not go spouting off to people you do not know,neighbors who are antigun or are 'liberals' ,stuff like that...that is what was intended....you never know if you will be labeled a psycho or have some nimrod call the cops on you because you are 'making illegal machineguns' in your garage..

There Goober....
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Old 06-27-2009, 7:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP301 View Post
I was unaware of being able to build firearms for personal use like this (it wouldnt be the first thing I was unaware of!). Does anyone have mroe information and sources regarding this? Kinda peaked my interest here....

Sounds like a good project...right after my newly discovered ability to have an AOW in CA... This site keeps getting better and better..Love Calguns!
I will try to find a link for you so you can copy and print out the exact wordage to keep with any homebuilds you may do and glad I could be of assisstance.

BTW I will be posting pics of a build or 2 once they are done..maybe under C/R ...but that will be another month..
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  #23  
Old 06-27-2009, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP301 View Post
I was unaware of being able to build firearms for personal use like this (it wouldnt be the first thing I was unaware of!). Does anyone have mroe information and sources regarding this? Kinda peaked my interest here....

Sounds like a good project...right after my newly discovered ability to have an AOW in CA... This site keeps getting better and better..Love Calguns!
The source is Title 18 Chapter 44 Sections 921 and 923 of the US Code.
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Old 06-27-2009, 8:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledReaper View Post
I should have clarified...you should not go spouting off to people you do not know,neighbors who are antigun or are 'liberals' ,stuff like that...that is what was intended....you never know if you will be labeled a psycho or have some nimrod call the cops on you because you are 'making illegal machineguns' in your garage..

There Goober....
understood.
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Old 06-27-2009, 8:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
The source is Title 18 Chapter 44 Sections 921 and 923 of the US Code.
here is a link for the text of the above legal documents

it is VERY important that one pays attention to the definitions in Sec 921 when interpreting the rest of the document, particularly the definition of manufacture(r):

Quote:
(10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(emphasis added)

in other words, when you read the sections that describe limits and penalties that pertain to manufacturers, they are NOT referring to the home-builder that is making firearms for his/her own personal use.

enjoy.
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Old 06-27-2009, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredieusa View Post
Oxymoron [oksi‐mor‐on] (plural ‐mora), a figure of speech that combines two usually contradictory terms in a compressed paradox, as in the word bittersweet or the phrase living death.
I know what the definition of an oxymoron is, I was trying to ask Beezly what he was calling an oxymoron in the OP.
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Old 06-27-2009, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
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I know what the definition of an oxymoron is, I was trying to ask Beezly what he was calling an oxymoron in the OP.
me too (there was no oxymoron in the OP for Beelzy to point out, AFAICT), although i can see how fredieusa misunderstood your question as well
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Old 06-27-2009, 4:48 PM
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Hey Goob-thanks for getting the link for him..beat me to it! I really should have this tagged in my favorites! Hell i have just about everything else relating to batf and gun related laws tagged...
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Old 06-27-2009, 6:44 PM
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I'm kinda surprised that there are people out there who still don't know you can build your own unregistered pistols.

If I had 750-1k I didn't know what to do with I would put together a home built HK knock off MP5 (semi auto)

I've sourced the jig, the flats, the parts etc..... And I could do it for 1kish and it would probably take a few evenings of tinkering to throw it together.
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Old 06-27-2009, 7:15 PM
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I'm kinda surprised that there are people out there who still don't know you can build your own unregistered pistols.

If I had 750-1k I didn't know what to do with I would put together a home built HK knock off MP5 (semi auto)

I've sourced the jig, the flats, the parts etc..... And I could do it for 1kish and it would probably take a few evenings of tinkering to throw it together.
who sells a jig? i haven't looked in a while, last time i researched it there were only a few proto-jigs in development for HK flats... (and i have 3 of the latter )
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Old 06-27-2009, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by goober_0 View Post
who sells a jig? i haven't looked in a while, last time i researched it there were only a few proto-jigs in development for HK flats... (and i have 3 of the latter )
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...Item=132079808

$300.....

If you buy it do I get to use it a couple of times
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Old 06-27-2009, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
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http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...Item=132079808

$300.....

If you buy it do I get to use it a couple of times
thanks! i've not seen that one...and yes, if i buy one i'll share
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Old 06-27-2009, 7:56 PM
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............
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Old 06-27-2009, 8:12 PM
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ke6guj ke6guj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBamBoo View Post
Here ya go...known as a zip gun....LOL...not sure how legal they are though.

Not very Lets see, I see 3 12020 violations right off the bat; SBS, unconventional pistol, and zip gun. Plus the federal AOW smoothbore pistol violation.
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