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  #1  
Old 06-12-2009, 3:56 PM
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Default Belt-Fed AR-15 Uppers

Hello Everyone,

I saw a web page for belt fed upper that will fit an AR-15 lower with no mods. My question is are these California legal being that I have a pre-ban Colt?

Second has anyone fired or used one?

Mark
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:30 PM
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I believe they are legal regardless however ammo must not be linked higher than 10 rounds.

Dont quote me on that as I am sure other will give you a better idea on the legalities of those uppers....
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:31 PM
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as far as manufacturer I believe it is Ares Defense?
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:34 PM
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I think the issue of a bullet button for the top cover may be an issue. It's an issue that we are working on right now for semi-auto MG42's for the California market.

thanks,
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:37 PM
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The bullet button shouldn't matter if it's on a registered AW. I'm assuming that's what the OP meant by a "pre-ban" colt... not a hundred percent sure on that though...
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:39 PM
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Pre-ban, post-ban, so what. The real question is: is your rifle a California "Registered AW"? You (not the dealer who you bought it from) would have had to send in a form and $25 to DOJ. Then, you would have recieved a letter back from them confirming each AW you registered. If you have that, then you are good to go and can use a belt fed upper with your lower. If you don't have such a letter, contact an attorney now. Do not post anything else about it! Just contact an attorney!
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Old 06-12-2009, 4:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter 409 View Post
Hello Everyone,

I saw a web page for belt fed upper that will fit an AR-15 lower with no mods. My question is are these California legal being that I have a pre-ban Colt?

Second has anyone fired or used one?

Mark
mark if you have a CA registered AR lower than you are fine to use the upper.

if you have linked ammo that are 10+ then you are also fine to use 10+ linked ammo.. or you will have to be using 10rd ammo links
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  #8  
Old 06-12-2009, 5:42 PM
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Got a link to the upper? I bet its mucho $$
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2009, 7:16 PM
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People have already put a deposit down on them for a ridiculous amount of money and have been waiting for something like 4 years. If you decide to get put on the waiting list prepare for a looooong wait.
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  #10  
Old 06-12-2009, 7:20 PM
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the shrike was a pipe dream

they all end up pricing themselves out of the market

the machine gunners seem to have bottomless wallets but after they are sated after the company sells 800 of them the market disappears

not many people will pay $5000 for an upper even if it puts on a pink floyd laser show
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Old 06-12-2009, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
not many people will pay $5000 for an upper even if it puts on a pink floyd laser show


If you build it.................. They will come.................
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2009, 7:51 PM
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yeah you can use 10+ links as long as they are pre-ban links. God that sounds rediculous. But its true. DAMN I need to leave this state!
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2009, 9:11 PM
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Had a chance to pick up a shrike and passed on it........I know 2 Cali guys that possess them.........Sick!
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  #14  
Old 06-12-2009, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slappomatt View Post
yeah you can use 10+ links as long as they are pre-ban links. God that sounds rediculous. But its true. DAMN I need to leave this state!
Why does that sound rediculous? I use +10 round linked ammo in my beltfed. Of course, I bought linked ammo back in the '90's. BTW, what the hell are pre-ban links? There's really no such thing. Just because you have a pile of links that you've had since 1932 doesn't mean you can assemble them into +10 round belts. The belts would have had to be assembled before 1-1-2000 or you would be violating the law.
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  #15  
Old 06-12-2009, 9:26 PM
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As a Original Shrike depositor, The Deposits were accepted in 2002, Ares has delivered about 20 something uppers since then. The original price was $2500.00
You cant even order one now and I cant confirm any have been delivered this year.It seems that everyone who asked for there deposit back have received it. Ares is also manufacturing a upper that is like the shrike but no belt fed and a piston kit.It seems every time I'm about to ask for my deposit back they ship a few more.
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  #16  
Old 06-12-2009, 9:51 PM
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Lakeside Guns in Wisconsin used to make beltfed .22LR uppers for the M16. Unfortunately they are discontinued.
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2009, 10:48 PM
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I was just looking a 89 vintage Guns & Ammo that had a article on a Ciener made belt fed upper for the AR platform.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2009, 11:00 PM
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IIRC, that Ciener kit required you to modify the lower by cutting out part of the mag well. Not a smart idea for a RAW lower, or a Registered M16 lower (for those in the free states).
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  #19  
Old 06-13-2009, 12:50 AM
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The ciener unit required HEAVY modifications to the lower, upper, and carrier as well as the addition of the belt-feed mechanism. The conversion itself HAD to be done by Ciener themselves. You sihpped in your gun and they would do the work on it for you. As far as I know, they would ONLY do it on M16 rifles, but I may be wrong on that one. The Ciener unit was essentially a slightly modified Colt 611, which never went into full production and neither did the Cieners. From what I've seen, the belt-feed mechanism alone for a Ciener runs almost as much as an entire Shrike upper and the Ciener uses modified links which are near impossible to find now.

If you want a belt-fed, you might as well look towards the 1919 or RPD, because you could easily buy two of those for the price of the belt-fed upper of an AR-15 alone.
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2009, 3:03 AM
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Since nobody else posted a pic



Kinda cool. Pretty stupid though if you don't have a full auto piece.

http://www.aresdefense.com/product.html
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  #21  
Old 06-13-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Why does that sound rediculous? I use +10 round linked ammo in my beltfed. Of course, I bought linked ammo back in the '90's. BTW, what the hell are pre-ban links? There's really no such thing. Just because you have a pile of links that you've had since 1932 doesn't mean you can assemble them into +10 round belts. The belts would have had to be assembled before 1-1-2000 or you would be violating the law.
that is because you had 10+ links before 2000. when i say preban i meant the ca high cap ban and assembled ammo links

lot of things on calguns sound ridiculous because well we are all suck in CA
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  #22  
Old 06-13-2009, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Pre-ban, post-ban, so what. The real question is: is your rifle a California "Registered AW"? You (not the dealer who you bought it from) would have had to send in a form and $25 to DOJ. Then, you would have recieved a letter back from them confirming each AW you registered. If you have that, then you are good to go and can use a belt fed upper with your lower. If you don't have such a letter, contact an attorney now. Do not post anything else about it! Just contact an attorney!
All of my weapons are registered and legal, I think it's foolish (my opinion) to own an unregistered weapon. Being my colt is an SP-1 and WOULD be so easy to convert without machining, but why would I want to give anyone the chance to take my guns......
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:04 AM
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OK, since you say you have a Colt SP-1 that you specifically registered as an Assault Weapon in 1992?, then you could legally run a belt-fed upper on it with no issues except for belt length.

You do know that rifles that are not AWs or .50BMG rifles are NOT registered in CA? So, when CSA is as asking you if it is Registered, he is talking about the separate AW registration that you would have had to mail in to CADOJ, not the paperwork you did at the dealer when you bought it.
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  #24  
Old 06-13-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter 409 View Post
All of my weapons are registered and legal, I think it's foolish (my opinion) to own an unregistered weapon. Being my colt is an SP-1 and WOULD be so easy to convert without machining, but why would I want to give anyone the chance to take my guns......
u mean take ur "freedom"
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:09 AM
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We are all missing the point though the law states no mags higher than ten (10) rounds. These weapons don't take mag regardless of pre or post ban black guns. A linked belt is not a mag, don't you think that would be a gray area??

Come on lets look at the 50 cal ban it only bans the 50 cal BMG but none of the others. It's the same thing, there verbage is not correct. And really isn't that what usually screws them dumb *** up?
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:14 AM
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OK, since you say you have a Colt SP-1 that you specifically registered as an Assault Weapon in 1992?, then you could legally run a belt-fed upper on it with no issues except for belt length.

You do know that rifles that are not AWs or .50BMG rifles are NOT registered in CA? So, when CSA is as asking you if it is Registered, he is talking about the separate AW registration that you would have had to mail in to CADOJ, not the paperwork you did at the dealer when you bought it.
I asked DOJ to send me a copy of all my registration paperwork in November of 2008 and got it in the mail January 2009. When I spoke to the person at DOJ she said I was all good.
I got my colt and had to do a PPT in 1987 then registered it twice since then with all these stupid registration acts since then. I keep copies of everything in my rifle case along with the weapon whenever it leaves the security of my safe.

Thanks for the advice though.
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoWeird View Post
The ciener unit required HEAVY modifications to the lower, upper, and carrier as well as the addition of the belt-feed mechanism. The conversion itself HAD to be done by Ciener themselves. You sihpped in your gun and they would do the work on it for you. As far as I know, they would ONLY do it on M16 rifles, but I may be wrong on that one. The Ciener unit was essentially a slightly modified Colt 611, which never went into full production and neither did the Cieners. From what I've seen, the belt-feed mechanism alone for a Ciener runs almost as much as an entire Shrike upper and the Ciener uses modified links which are near impossible to find now.

If you want a belt-fed, you might as well look towards the 1919 or RPD, because you could easily buy two of those for the price of the belt-fed upper of an AR-15 alone.
Ciener did semi's as well.

The only one I've got my hands on was on a Colt lower, and sold for $2,700.00 complete back in the mid-eighties at the Reno Show.

It ran 100%. My buddy was conflicted about buying it but I told him if he didn't, I would, and he took the plunge.

The rifle is now in a vault in a free state.
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  #28  
Old 06-13-2009, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter 409 View Post
We are all missing the point though the law states no mags higher than ten (10) rounds. These weapons don't take mag regardless of pre or post ban black guns. A linked belt is not a mag, don't you think that would be a gray area??
No, the law says that semi-automatic centerfire rifles that have a detachable mag and any of the listed features is an AW. Or has a fixed mag of more than 10 rounds. CA defines a magazine to include ANY ammunition feeding device, which a belt or linked ammo would appear to fall under.

Quote:
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

(d) The following definitions shall apply under this section:
(1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device.
So, in your case, because you have a RAW AR-15, you can run detachable magazines, or fixed mags over 10 rounds.

But, you still need to make sure you don't violate 12020.
Quote:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
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  #29  
Old 06-13-2009, 11:35 AM
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Sorry to jack thread... but to Henderson Def... Any prototype pics of the top cover/modded MG42? Like the sound of that already!!! Would it be compatible with a Yugo M53 copy? When can we order!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HendersonDefense View Post
I think the issue of a bullet button for the top cover may be an issue. It's an issue that we are working on right now for semi-auto MG42's for the California market.

thanks,
Ron
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:41 AM
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I'm wondering if a top cover that is locked down is good enough. Can't someone use a starter tab on a belt and load a mag without having to open the top cover? (oh nevermind, forgot, attachable magazines aren't regulated )

Plus, when the belt is done, it just detaches itself out the right side of the gun. Unless you have a setup to install an oversize dummy round at the end of the belt so it can't detach without the top cover being opened?
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  #31  
Old 06-13-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
No, the law says that semi-automatic centerfire rifles that have a detachable mag and any of the listed features is an AW. Or has a fixed mag of more than 10 rounds. CA defines a magazine to include ANY ammunition feeding device, which a belt or linked ammo would appear to fall under.


So, in your case, because you have a RAW AR-15, you can run detachable magazines, or fixed mags over 10 rounds.

But, you still need to make sure you don't violate 12020.
Well that just sucks LOL
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Old 06-13-2009, 3:20 PM
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the link paradox "large capacity feed device" is a perplexing one to me

say you have 100 rounds linked up back before 2000

are you are allowed to add another 100 rounds linked?

what if the belt breaks in the middle did you just manufacture a (lcfd) and if so which half did you manufacture?
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Old 06-18-2009, 8:41 PM
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This is ridiculous, this state of this state sickens me.
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Old 06-18-2009, 9:29 PM
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Damn you had to post that damn picture!!! I had myself all talked out of it. Now I want one too! May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits!
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
the link paradox "large capacity feed device" is a perplexing one to me

say you have 100 rounds linked up back before 2000

are you are allowed to add another 100 rounds linked?

what if the belt breaks in the middle did you just manufacture a (lcfd) and if so which half did you manufacture?
I broke all of my linked ammunition into 11 round segments, didn't you?

You do the math on how how many "feeding devices" that makes in the 200rd or 460rd cans.

We all know the large capacity mag ban is unenforceable on MAGS, for links... fuggedaboutit. You'd have to rat yourself out.
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