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  #1  
Old 06-11-2009, 9:54 PM
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Default Question regarding C&R transfers between individuals

I've been having differences of opinion with several people who state that an FFL holder, either a commercial/business FFL holder or a C&R FFL holder must do paperwork for the transfer of C&R long guns.

Since the word of an active, busy FFL holder isn't good enough, could someone be so kind as to point me at the appropriate statute, both to shut the mouths of the self appointed experts and for my own clarification?

Also, I did search, and found anecdotal evidence supporting my position, but I want to quote chapter and verse, even though I'd much prefer a 2X4 to certain foreheads.

Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 06-11-2009, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Boy View Post
I've been having differences of opinion with several people who state that an FFL holder, either a commercial/business FFL holder or a C&R FFL holder must do paperwork for the transfer of C&R long guns.

Since the word of an active, busy FFL holder isn't good enough, could someone be so kind as to point me at the appropriate statute, both to shut the mouths of the self appointed experts and for my own clarification?

Also, I did search, and found anecdotal evidence supporting my position, but I want to quote chapter and verse, even though I'd much prefer a 2X4 to certain foreheads.

Thanks in advance.

When a C&R FFL acquires or disposes of a C&R firearm of any type to anybody they must log the transaction in their "bound book". I would consider that to be paperwork. But C&R FFL's are not required to use a Form 4473 when they dispose of a firearm.

When a Dealer FFL acquires or disposes of a C&R firearm of any type to anybody they must log the transaction in their "bound book". If they are disposing of a firearm to an unlicensed person then they must also fill out the Form 4473. California law also requires that Dealers submit a DROS when disposing of C&R firearms to California C&R FFL's or to unlicensed persons.

Quote:
CFR § 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers. Except as provided in § 478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms.

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.
Quote:
CFR § 478.124 Firearms transaction record.

(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.
Quote:
CPC § 12073. (a) As required by the Department of Justice, every dealer shall keep a register or record of electronic or telephonic transfer in which shall be entered the information prescribed in Section 12077.
You can read the rest of the details about the DROS requirements in sections 12073 through 12077 of the California Penal Code.
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Last edited by Mssr. Eleganté; 06-11-2009 at 11:00 PM..
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  #3  
Old 06-11-2009, 10:58 PM
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Okay, that covers the requirements of a C&R and Dealer FFL's. Is there any mention in the statutes of paperwork requirements when one private, non-FFL holding individual transfers a longarm to another private, non FFL holding individual?
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  #4  
Old 06-11-2009, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Boy View Post
Okay, that covers the requirements of a C&R and Dealer FFL's. Is there any mention in the statutes of paperwork requirements when one private, non-FFL holding individual transfers a longarm to another private, non FFL holding individual?
If it is a C&R long arm that is at least 50 years old being transfered between two unlicensed Californians, then there is no paperwork required.

Quote:
CPC § 12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
The law only specifies paperwork requirements for transfers involving FFL's, and CPC § 12078(t)(2) exempts the transfers you are talking about from having to go through an FFL.

If one of the unlicensed parties is a resident of another State, then the transfer must go through an FFL to comply with Federal law.
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Old 06-12-2009, 2:06 AM
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Also, C&R sales conducted by FFL03 holders that cross state lines need to follow the laws for both states.
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  #6  
Old 06-13-2009, 2:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taloft View Post
Also, C&R sales conducted by FFL03 holders that cross state lines need to follow the laws for both states.
Just to clarify, if a C&R holder is selling a C&R rifle or shotgun to an unlicensed resident of another State, then yes, the laws of both States need to be followed, in addition to the Federal requirements that the transfer take place at the C&R FFL's licensed premises.

But if a C&R FFL is selling a C&R firearm to another C&R FFL from another State, then the sale only needs to be legal in the State in which the transfer is happening. For instance, California C&R FFL's can buy Yugo M59/66 rifles with grenade launchers if they purchase them while outside of California, even though the rifles would be illegal to own in California. They just can't bring them back into California with the grenade launcher intact.

The Federal requirement that the sale be legal in both States only applies when the buyer is not an FFL.
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  #7  
Old 06-22-2009, 5:06 PM
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A simple response is from the CA DOJ FAQ:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php

14. I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))
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  #8  
Old 07-13-2009, 7:09 PM
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Bump for important questions. Thanks for quoting the codes.
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Old 12-02-2014, 9:25 PM
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I apologize for the super old bump, but I am still confused. If the transaction (50+year old pistol) is between two non-C&R FFL (just two private citizens), does it have to go through a regular FFL?
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  #10  
Old 12-03-2014, 7:26 AM
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Default necrothread

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-camp View Post
I apologize for the super old bump, but I am still confused. If the transaction (50+year old pistol) is between two non-C&R FFL (just two private citizens), does it have to go through a regular FFL?
All handguns must be transferred through a CA FFL dealer.
There was never C&R exemption to this.

Also...
Starting 01-01-2014, all firearms must be transferred through a CA FFL dealer.
Which means, the information contained in this thread is no longer valid.

The exemption for 50+ year old C&R long guns has been modified and no longer applies persons without a FFL.
Only a persons with a valid C&R FFL and valid COE may transfer C&R long guns without the use of a CA FFL dealer and any transaction they do must be reported to CA DOJ. [PC 27966]



Penal Code 27966
Commencing January 1, 2014, if all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27545 shall not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.
(b) The firearm is not a handgun.
(c) The firearm is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(d) The person receiving the firearm has a current certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 26710.
(e) The person receiving the firearm is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued thereto.
(f) Within 30 days of taking possession of the firearm, the person to whom it is transferred shall forward by prepaid mail, or deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that includes information concerning the individual taking possession of the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals complete pursuant to this section shall be provided to them by the department.
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