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  #41  
Old 06-27-2009, 1:58 PM
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Interesting. I received this email:

tenpercentfirearms has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - DROS at 2 different FFL's - in the FFL's Forum forum of Calguns.net.

This thread is located at:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by kemasa)---
A business owner should be able to read and understand the laws in which they are controlled. You don't get that 12077(d) applies to non-handguns and that 12077(c) applies to handguns, so in this case it is clear that the force of the law needs to be brought down on you in order for you to understand this. I strongly suggest that you contact an attorney to go over this before it is too late for you.
---End Quote---
How do you feel right now making this statement?

Yet, I do not see the message anywhere. Perhaps I am missing it or perhaps someone is posting and editing the message to remove things that they don't want.

Yeah, I made a mistake on the sections, but the simple fact is that it still reads that each firearm transaction is to be reported on a separate DROS and only a single sale, loan or transfers of multiple non-handguns can be considered as a single transaction. There is no way you can consider a handgun and a longgun to be a single transaction as it is written.
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  #42  
Old 06-27-2009, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes, I know that you did not follow any of that since you are not reading and understanding what is written. Based on this, it seems quite easy to say that people should not listen to what you are saying.

12077 makes sense if you bothered to read it. You keep making the same mistake over and over again. Even with my telling you what mistake you are making, you keep doing it. I am not sure of how to get you to read and understand. I suspect it is like hitting you head against the wall, it feels so good when you stop. Then again, it is also fun to see how deep of a hole a person can dig themselves.

Ok, let's try this real simple. 12077 is made up of parts. Parts like your front door, your window, etc. Each part relates to something different. 12077(d) applies to longgun purchases. 12077(c) applies to handgun purchases. That is why 12077(d) does not involve handguns, but more specifically it prevents handguns from being included because of 12077 (d) (4).

Handguns transactions: 12077(c)

Non-handguns transactions: 12077(d)

Get it?

Handgun ARE considered a transaction, a separate transaction, covered, in part, by 12077 (c).
As has been shown, you don't get it. (b) for handguns, (c) for firearms other than handguns, and (d) for both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is yet another example of the problem: "If you want to make headway in this argument, stop making comments like the one in bold." You do not understand that what the Feds consider to be a transaction is different, not the same, etc. as what CA considers it to be with respect to firearms. The reason I said what I did is because you seem to think that something on the 4473 applies to CA in how things are viewed. It doesn't.
The 4473 is completely tied into how California sees things. California cannot violate federal law. Or put another way, if California law does not specify what to do, then you must follow federal law. Done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I have already showed you what you are violating, 12077. You don't want to listen, read or anything else. You may say that your single sale is something, but that does not mean that CA agrees with that. Just like the difference between the Feds and CA. You go and tell CA that you can use the Fed's definition of what a transaction is and see how far it gets you.
Easily done. DOJ, CA law does not define when a transaction ends, so I used federal law. Until you show where the penal code defines when the transaction ends, you have no case. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Please show me where the 4473 talks about the DROS and requirements of the DROS submission. There is a section for recording the information of the background check, but not the specifics of the DROS. Also show me where the 4473 says that you can add an additional handgun in CA. The simple fact is that it doesn't.
Since it doesn't exist, you are not required to follow rules that don't exist. Seems pretty simple to me. However, I also understand that (b) applies to handguns, (c) applies to firearms other than handguns, and (d) applies to both. Something that has escaped some people around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
A business owner should be able to read and understand the laws in which they are controlled. You don't get that 12077(d) applies to non-handguns and that 12077(c) applies to handguns, so in this case it is clear that the force of the law needs to be brought down on you in order for you to understand this. I strongly suggest that you contact an attorney to go over this before it is too late for you.
I repeat myself. (b) applies to handguns, (c) applies to firearms other than handguns, and (d) applies to both. It appears this advice was more for yourself than me. How laughable.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Yes, it is a legitimate challenge. Prove me wrong. Prove that the CA DOJ will not tell you that you are wrong and/or take action against you. I would love to do what you are doing, if only it was shown to be legal. You can do this and make a name for yourself.
I get the feeling you aren't willing to do anything without government permission. I just read the law, but that is because I can read and see that (b) is for handguns, (c) is for firearms other than handguns, and (d) is for both. You will be waiting for confirmation before you just do what is legal. And that is if your DOJ masters decide to be honest with you.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Painting the forms would just make it difficult to read. It all depends on what you paint it with. Ok, the law says that you must use ink and that it must be legible. Does that mean that I can use ink which is only legible when viewed with infrared or UV? Would that be legal?
Now you are just getting desperate. Stick to the subject. Obvisouly the forms must be legible. If you want to push the envelope on that and paint them, go for it. This is a distraction from your glaring mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
If you want to claim that a firearm sold on Monday and a firearm sold on Friday are a single sale, then you are going to have some explaining to do. Most reasonable people would not consider that to be a single sale, even if you don't pick everything up.
I don't care what reasonable people think. I care what the law says. The law says one transaction per DROS. The law sales a single sale of any number of firearms other than handguns is a transaction. California law does not specify when a single sale ends. Federal law specifices when I sign the 4473. What you or any reasonable person thinks is irrelevant. The law is clear in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Let me ask you this. I come in and buy a rifle, a box of ammo and a gear bag and pay the full price of everything. Must I leave the ammo and the gear bag until I pick up the rifle? Do I need to take everything at once? You said that "Until the customer leaves the building with the merchandise, it is the same sale". So what is it if the customer leaves with part of the merchandise? If the customer has to leave with everything, then could I buy a rifle and a gear bag and not ever take the gear bag so that I could keep buying rifles as single sale and never have to do another longgun DROS?
Again irrelevant. If I sell you a case, I put it on its own sales receipt and your guns stay on a sales order until pick up. You would have been better off saying, "What if a guy buys a half a box of ammo?" My simple reply is, "I only sell complete boxes of ammo or if they want to put a down payment on a full box, they can take it all when they pay it off." I can easily sell gun cases separately from long guns and furthermore gun case sales are not restrcited in penal code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Again, you try to put words in my mouth. Where did I ever sale that the transaction ends when the day is over. That is clearly false and I never said that. There is a big difference between transactions and sales.
I will quote you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You are trying to weasel word things to claim that a firearm sold on Monday and one sold on Friday can be a single sale. You also go on to try to use the BATF 4473 to try to make it somehow apply to the CA DROS in the same way. That just does not work as there are different rules and requirements.
You said I would be wrong to sell a gun on Monday and sell a gun on Friday and say they were the same transaction. Obviously your use of different days implies that you think transactions are over at the end of the day. If you are actually saying something else, please tell us when the transaction is over. Better yet, simply show us the California Penal Code or even written CA DOJ directives that state when a transaction is over. If you can do that, then you can prove the case that I am violating the law. Until then, you have no case.

You see instead of relying on a reasonble person's definition of a transaction, I actually rely on written federal guidelines. When I sign the 4473. If you knew the difference between (b) being for handguns, (c) being for firearms other than handguns, and (d) being both, you might understand this concept.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 07-25-2009 at 11:41 AM..
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  #43  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns.

This means that you can not report more than one firearm transaction on a single DROS.

What is a firearm transaction? Well, the second sentence makes it clear it is a single transaction for non-handguns if it is a single sale, loan or transfer for any number of non-handguns. For handguns, each firearm is a transaction.

So, each handgun is a separate firearm transaction. Any number of non-handguns are a separate transaction. Only one firearm transaction may be reported per DROS. That means if you have a handgun and a longgun, that is two separate firearm transactions and so it must be reported separately with separate DROS submissions.

That takes care of the longgun on the handgun DROS. The only way you can add additional non-handguns to an existing DROS is to try to claim it is the same sale.
The problem is (d) is not clarifying what a hangun transaction is. It only states that a transaction cannot include handguns. Can you fathom that the code is poorly written? Yes, you cannot include handguns on long gun transactions. However, you state, "For handguns, each firearm is a transaction." Where does it state that? It simply doesn't. They definie a long gun transaction, but they do not define a handgun transaction. Since they do not define a handgun transaction, then we could interpret that a handgun transaction could also satisfy a long gun transaction. I think that is the part you are missing.
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  #44  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:10 PM
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This is just a simple attack and it is false:

"I get the feeling you aren't willing to do anything without government permission. "

I am not willing to gamble my freedom or my business with strange readings of the penal code. Quite clearly the penal code is difficult to read. That means that in the controlled area of firearms, it is best to not make things up if you want to stay in business and/or keep your freedom.

If you want to define what a "single sale" in some way, then perhaps you should check with the CA DOJ to see how they define it, just to make sure that you are not making a mistake.
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  #45  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Interesting. I received this email:

tenpercentfirearms has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - DROS at 2 different FFL's - in the FFL's Forum forum of Calguns.net.

This thread is located at:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by kemasa)---
A business owner should be able to read and understand the laws in which they are controlled. You don't get that 12077(d) applies to non-handguns and that 12077(c) applies to handguns, so in this case it is clear that the force of the law needs to be brought down on you in order for you to understand this. I strongly suggest that you contact an attorney to go over this before it is too late for you.
---End Quote---
How do you feel right now making this statement?

Yet, I do not see the message anywhere. Perhaps I am missing it or perhaps someone is posting and editing the message to remove things that they don't want.

Yeah, I made a mistake on the sections, but the simple fact is that it still reads that each firearm transaction is to be reported on a separate DROS and only a single sale, loan or transfers of multiple non-handguns can be considered as a single transaction. There is no way you can consider a handgun and a longgun to be a single transaction as it is written.
You should have been patient. I decided my small response was insufficient and now you can read my longer response that pretty much mocks your entire diatribe about the differences between (b),(c), and (d). Instead of paying attention to what you are doing, you are trying to school me on intellect and lawyers, leaving your work sloppy and making you look foolish.

So instead of worrying about what I say, you think my deleting and re-doing a post means something. It doesn't, except you look pretty silly telling me what I should be doing when you are obviously lacking.
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  #46  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This is just a simple attack and it is false:

"I get the feeling you aren't willing to do anything without government permission. "

I am not willing to gamble my freedom or my business with strange readings of the penal code. Quite clearly the penal code is difficult to read. That means that in the controlled area of firearms, it is best to not make things up if you want to stay in business and/or keep your freedom.

If you want to define what a "single sale" in some way, then perhaps you should check with the CA DOJ to see how they define it, just to make sure that you are not making a mistake.
I rest my case. I read the penal code and know what it says about a transaction. Didn't you just tell me that a gun dealer needs to know how to read the penal code if they want to stay in business? Now you are saying the code is too confusing and it is best to just ask the DOJ what they think. I call that asking for permission. What if they just feed you a line of BS with no basis in the law? You will just follow exactly what your master says. I am reading the code and becoming smarter.

But seriously, lets let bygones be bygones. I am not even running long guns on a handgun DROS. That was all hypothetical for me. I might be changing long gun numbers, but I still feel comfortable doing so as you have yet to show where the penal code defines a transaction is over and the 4473 is clear on when it is over. That is one I would be more than happy to fight them on, if they want. I doubt they care.

This debate just serves to help us be more educated and be smarter dealers for it. I think we have spent enough time on it today.
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  #47  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
The problem is (d) is not clarifying what a hangun transaction is. It only states that a transaction cannot include handguns. Can you fathom that the code is poorly written? Yes, you cannot include handguns on long gun transactions. However, you state, "For handguns, each firearm is a transaction." Where does it state that? It simply doesn't. They definie a long gun transaction, but they do not define a handgun transaction. Since they do not define a handgun transaction, then we could interpret that a handgun transaction could also satisfy a long gun transaction. I think that is the part you are missing.
Read the first sentence in (d).

The second sentence, it does NOT state that a transaction can NOT include a handgun at all. It states that it is to be considered a single firearm transaction if it is a single sale AND does not include handguns. Than means that each and every handgun is considered a separate firearm transaction, but that it is considered a single transaction for non-handguns if all of the conditions are met.
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  #48  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Read the first sentence in (d).

The second sentence, it does NOT state that a transaction can NOT include a handgun at all. It states that it is to be considered a single firearm transaction if it is a single sale AND does not include handguns. Than means that each and every handgun is considered a separate firearm transaction, but that it is considered a single transaction for non-handguns if all of the conditions are met.
Yes it does. It clearly says, "For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns." If you want take out some of the extra wording. "For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale...of any number of firearms that are not handguns." Or, "For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single loan of any number of firearms that are not handguns." Or, "For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns."

12077(d)(4) does not apply to handguns. Therefore handgun transaction are not definied. If they were, then they would probably state you cannot run a long gun transaction on a handgun transaction. However, since they did not, no such prohibition applies.

Final statement, the penal code is a flipping mess! As you have stated, dealers should err on the side of caution and do what they feel is best. If you don't want to change the DROS long gun number and make customers re-DROS, no problem. If you just cross out the number and make sure the 4473 is correct, go for it.

In the end I bet you a beer no one but us gives a damn and this will never come up on an audit, even if I told them to look at it!
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  #49  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
IThis debate just serves to help us be more educated and be smarter dealers for it. I think we have spent enough time on it today.
This.

It appears that both sides are set in what they believe. Don't let this get personal guys. Wouldn't want to lose anybody.
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  #50  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I rest my case. I read the penal code and know what it says about a transaction. Didn't you just tell me that a gun dealer needs to know how to read the penal code if they want to stay in business? Now you are saying the code is too confusing and it is best to just ask the DOJ what they think. I call that asking for permission. What if they just feed you a line of BS with no basis in the law? You will just follow exactly what your master says. I am reading the code and becoming smarter.

But seriously, lets let bygones be bygones. I am not even running long guns on a handgun DROS. That was all hypothetical for me. I might be changing long gun numbers, but I still feel comfortable doing so as you have yet to show where the penal code defines a transaction is over and the 4473 is clear on when it is over. That is one I would be more than happy to fight them on, if they want. I doubt they care.
...
I said that the penal code is difficult to read and that it is best to ask if you have questions. To jump to the conclusion that I have to ask permission and to use the wording "master" is insulting, not to mention perhaps racist.

i call and ask. If what they say does not make sense, I will look at the law and ask again and push the issue. I have had to explain to a BATF agent why it could be a problem if the person paying for a firearm was not the person filling out the forms (strawman purchase).

You can not use the 4473 definition of a transaction. As you well know, each handgun purchase is considered a transaction under CA law, but you can (under certain conditions) put multiple handgun purchases on a single 4473. That means you have multiple CA transactions on a single Federal 4473 transaction.

In order to add longguns, you need a clear understanding of what the penal code means when it says a single sale, loan or transfer. For example, if you go into a fast food place and order a burger, then go back to the counter and decide to order fries, that is two separate sales. I strongly suspect that the CA DOJ and local DA would consider a sale of another firearm on another day to be a separate sale. You could justify it if it was on the same day, but not later. I am not trying to push this issue with you to be mean or anything other than trying to keep you out of trouble. I really don't want to see another FFL go down in flames. If you can get a clear understanding of what a single sale is, because it is written in the law, and if it fits with what you do, then that is great and we all can benefit by that definition. On the other hand, if you end up in jail and/or out of business, who does that help? The rest of us will have to pay taxes to support you while you are in jail.
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  #51  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:40 PM
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I said that the penal code is difficult to read and that it is best to ask if you have questions. To jump to the conclusion that I have to ask permission and to use the wording "master" is insulting, not to mention perhaps racist.
If you want to make it racist, that is your choice. You are grasping at straws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
i call and ask. If what they say does not make sense, I will look at the law and ask again and push the issue. I have had to explain to a BATF agent why it could be a problem if the person paying for a firearm was not the person filling out the forms (strawman purchase).
Then we are on the same page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You can not use the 4473 definition of a transaction. As you well know, each handgun purchase is considered a transaction under CA law, but you can (under certain conditions) put multiple handgun purchases on a single 4473. That means you have multiple CA transactions on a single Federal 4473 transaction.
Actually I did not know that each handgun purchase is considered a transaction uner CA law. Please quote the penal code where it staes that. Are you saying I cannot sell a guy a matching set of Ruger Vaquero pistols on the same day and let him DROS them separately in order to comply with the one handgun every 30 day rule? Where does it prohibit that? Again, you are making assumptions based on common sense or some sort of perceived logic. When dealing with the penal code, assume nothing! It must be written down specifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
In order to add longguns, you need a clear understanding of what the penal code means when it says a single sale, loan or transfer. For example, if you go into a fast food place and order a burger, then go back to the counter and decide to order fries, that is two separate sales. I strongly suspect that the CA DOJ and local DA would consider a sale of another firearm on another day to be a separate sale. You could justify it if it was on the same day, but not later.
I don't sell burgers. I sell guns. What a burger place does has nothing to do with me. However, to play your silly little game, what if I keep an open tab? Does Tahoe Joes run your credit card after you order your steak, or can you have desert and have it added on too?

What commn sense, McDonalds, or what you think should happen has nothing to do with the sale of firearms. It is this simple. Show us a defnition of what the CA DOJ thinks is a single sale. Period. It is that simple. So far you have nothing. I have what the feds say. Who is the jury going to follow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I am not trying to push this issue with you to be mean or anything other than trying to keep you out of trouble. I really don't want to see another FFL go down in flames. If you can get a clear understanding of what a single sale is, because it is written in the law, and if it fits with what you do, then that is great and we all can benefit by that definition. On the other hand, if you end up in jail and/or out of business, who does that help? The rest of us will have to pay taxes to support you while you are in jail.
Again, do you think I am going to go to jail for adding long guns onto a DROS? Where in the penal code does it specify the penalty phase of this? It doesn't. Worst case scenario I lose my license. Big deal. Again, your underlying tone of fear of the DOJ is why I challenge you. You are not comfortable doing anything without their permission. You have to get a 100% before you will do it. That is fine. You might be smarter for it. I personally will just stick to reading the law and making my own interpretations.

The single sale is not over until I sign the 4473. Until we see penal code that says differently, that is what a reasonable person would assume based on federal guidelines. What a DOJ agent makes up over the phone does not count.
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  #52  
Old 06-27-2009, 2:54 PM
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hey good job wes i am going to come up tomorrow for some burgers!
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  #53  
Old 06-27-2009, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
If you want to make it racist, that is your choice. You are grasping at straws.
How is one to view your "master" comment? It denotes slavery.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Actually I did not know that each handgun purchase is considered a transaction uner CA law. Please quote the penal code where it staes that. Are you saying I cannot sell a guy a matching set of Ruger Vaquero pistols on the same day and let him DROS them separately in order to comply with the one handgun every 30 day rule? Where does it prohibit that? Again, you are making assumptions based on common sense or some sort of perceived logic. When dealing with the penal code, assume nothing! It must be written down specifically.
We have been through this already. Why do you submit two DROS if it is a single transaction? The transaction is submitting the DROS and since you do it twice, it would be two transactions. It would be a single sale though.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I don't sell burgers. I sell guns. What a burger place does has nothing to do with me. However, to play your silly little game, what if I keep an open tab? Does Tahoe Joes run your credit card after you order your steak, or can you have desert and have it added on too?
It is a single sale, just like if a customer were to walk around your store and pick things up. I doubt that you would let them leave with items and come back later and pay.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
What commn sense, McDonalds, or what you think should happen has nothing to do with the sale of firearms. It is this simple. Show us a defnition of what the CA DOJ thinks is a single sale. Period. It is that simple. So far you have nothing. I have what the feds say. Who is the jury going to follow?
The Feds do not speak of a single sale and their definition of a transaction is different.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Again, do you think I am going to go to jail for adding long guns onto a DROS? Where in the penal code does it specify the penalty phase of this? It doesn't. Worst case scenario I lose my license. Big deal. Again, your underlying tone of fear of the DOJ is why I challenge you. You are not comfortable doing anything without their permission. You have to get a 100% before you will do it. That is fine. You might be smarter for it. I personally will just stick to reading the law and making my own interpretations.
Each penal code lists what the violation is, infraction, misdemeanor or felony. There are situation in which it can vary. Certain violations can be charged as a misdemeanor OR felony, the DA's choice. In some cases you need to track down what it would be as you need to find the start of the code section. Do you think that you can violate the law and have nothing happen to you? Sometimes you will get a warning, other times they like to make an example of you.

You can go to jail for a misdemeanor, but that is less than a year.

Think again if you think that the worst case is just losing your license. There have been people who have gone to jail for illegal firearms transfers. Intent is an important aspect. A simple mistake is one thing, but if they think that you intentionally and willfully violating the law, then they tend to come down harder.


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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
The single sale is not over until I sign the 4473. Until we see penal code that says differently, that is what a reasonable person would assume based on federal guidelines. What a DOJ agent makes up over the phone does not count.
The 4473 says NOTHING about a single sale, so how do you tie that into it? The 4473 transaction is different than CA too, so that does not apply either.
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  #54  
Old 06-27-2009, 3:52 PM
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Ok, you win. You do not base any of your definitions on law, but your own personal intepretations absent of any citations. You like to compare gun transactions to burger transactions. You also seem to think that you can violate the law because the government thinks you violated the law, and not by any actual violation of a written law. You do not understand the concept of the separation of powers that if the state does not regulate against it, then the federal rules apply and vice versa.

Yes your attitude of only doing what the government allows you to do is like servitude or slavery. If you think slavery is racist, then that is your problem as not just blacks have ever been slaves and I won't be baited into your false logic that my mocking your desire to please your masters somehow has something to do with race. Slavery in a modern context only has to do with freedom, unless you choose otherwise. And that is your choice and a side bar for you to try and gain traction after your (b), (c), (d) debacle.

Your point has been made and I have found it lacking as I have clearly stated with references to code. We can move on now.
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  #55  
Old 06-27-2009, 9:23 PM
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Nobody has asked me to do this yet. As far as I am concerned, It's a new sale. Pure CYA on that one. As kemasa said, the only time and $ savings is to the customer. I am not cheaper than other places, just better. My clients understand the hoops I jump through to provide them the service that I do. That's why they come back. I always counsel long arm buyers to get all they want at once to save money on DROS. Handguns are one per month anyway.
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  #56  
Old 06-28-2009, 5:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Actually I did not know that each handgun purchase is considered a transaction uner CA law. Please quote the penal code where it staes that. Are you saying I cannot sell a guy a matching set of Ruger Vaquero pistols on the same day and let him DROS them separately in order to comply with the one handgun every 30 day rule?
This brings up an interesting question. This is perhaps another aspect to this, but I need to confirm it, so let us say that instead of the Ruger Vaquero, it is a Ruger GP100, just to be clear.

Do you consider this a single sale? The firearms are transfered on different days, so the leave you place on different days. At least the number of CA firearm transactions would match the number of number of Federal firearms transactions :-).

Now, let us change this a bit, but just a little. The buyer has a C&R FFL and a CA certificate of eligibility, but the firearm stays the same Ruger GP100.

Is this a single sale? The firearms would be transfered on the same day and leave your store on the same day, so it should be. But with respect to CA, you would need to submit two DROS, which means that it is two CA firearm transactions. Do you fill out two 4473 so that it matches in terms of firearm transactions or do you only fill out one? If you fill out one, then you have a single sale, two CA firearm transactions and a single Federal firearm transaction.

Another question on a "single sale":

If a customer comes in and buys and pays for 5 Ruger 10/22 rifles, but you only have 2 in stock and the customer wants to pick up the rifles asap as they come in and are available, so you submit a longgun DROS and order 3 more rifles. After 10 days the customer comes in to pick up the first two rifles. After 20 days from when the customer first came in, two more of the rifles comes in and after a total of 40 days, the last rifle comes in.

How many sales were there?

How many firearm transactions were there?

How many DROS would you need to submit based on this?

How many 4473 would you need to submit based on this?

If the customer were willing to wait to pick up the rifles as long as possible, how many DROS would need to be submitted? How many 4473 would need to be submitted?

Based on what you have said, it seems like you would consider this three sales since the customer would leave three times with merchandise, but it is in fact a single sale.
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  #57  
Old 06-28-2009, 5:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Ok, you win. You do not base any of your definitions on law, but your own personal intepretations absent of any citations. You like to compare gun transactions to burger transactions. You also seem to think that you can violate the law because the government thinks you violated the law, and not by any actual violation of a written law. You do not understand the concept of the separation of powers that if the state does not regulate against it, then the federal rules apply and vice versa.
You are quite confused. You do not understand what a single sale is. The Feds do not define it nor do they use that term, so you can take anything on the 4473 and apply it to that term.

I do not think that you can violate the law because the government thinks you violated the law. That is completely false. You just don't understand the penal code which applies.

I pointed to the specific sub-section of the penal code (12077) where it clearly (at least to some) states that each firearm is a separate transaction, with the exception that multiple non-handguns when done as a single sale, loan or transfer is considered to be a single firearm transfer. If you submit two DROS, then it is clearly two firearm transactions.

I am sorry you did not understand the concept of sales when I used the burger example, but it is a completly false statement that I think that firearm transactions are like burger transactions. When it comes to sales, it is the same though. You can buy two burgers at the same time and it is a single sale. If you buy them separately, then it is two separate sales. I could try to explain more, but it is pointless.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Yes your attitude of only doing what the government allows you to do is like servitude or slavery. If you think slavery is racist, then that is your problem as not just blacks have ever been slaves and I won't be baited into your false logic that my mocking your desire to please your masters somehow has something to do with race. Slavery in a modern context only has to do with freedom, unless you choose otherwise. And that is your choice and a side bar for you to try and gain traction after your (b), (c), (d) debacle.
Your attitude is offensive and wrong. You have no idea of who I am and what I feel. I already pointed out to you that when I was inspected by the BATF, the agent claimed that I had to turn in all my records prior to my move, but I investigated, contacted others and proved that the agent was wrong.

The government is not my "master" and that is just a personal attack on me with no basis in reality. I do follow the law as I don't want to risk my business or my freedom. You can play fast and loose with the law, perhaps you will get away with it, perhaps not.

Yeah, I made a mistake on which sections dealt with handguns and which were longguns, but it is a minor point and I can at least read and understand 12077 (d)(4). I also know that in the state of California that each handgun is a separate firearm transaction and that multiple non-handguns sold at the same time is considered a single firearm transaction.

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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Your point has been made and I have found it lacking as I have clearly stated with references to code. We can move on now.
Your claim of what a single sale is completely without merit and makes no sense. Using that definition will cause problems for you sooner or later.
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  #58  
Old 06-28-2009, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolf the Red View Post
Nobody has asked me to do this yet. As far as I am concerned, It's a new sale. Pure CYA on that one. As kemasa said, the only time and $ savings is to the customer. I am not cheaper than other places, just better. My clients understand the hoops I jump through to provide them the service that I do. That's why they come back. I always counsel long arm buyers to get all they want at once to save money on DROS. Handguns are one per month anyway.
Actually, any one is free to answer the question as to their views on what a single sale is. Personally, I think it might help if others stepped up and expressed their opinion on the matter.

I don't consider it CYA, it is just a separate sale from the first one. I might consider it a single sale if the customer did not leave, but I prefer to have it all decided before submitting the DROS. As was stated, the number of longguns listed on the DROS is only used as evidence against you for the most part. If you ordered an additional firearm, then it would help to show that it was actually a single sale and could be combined.

I have had customers buy multiple rifles and say that they are thinking about buying another rifle, so I have told that it is best to wait until they decide and do all of them at once in order to save money on the DROS. I try to save the customer money, but not by my doing something wrong. I tell my customers the same thing as Rudolf the Red, which ends up with me storing firearms for them (no, I do not charge them).

Handguns are only one per month (30 days) under certain conditions. If the person has a C&R FFL and a CA certificate of eligibility, then they are exempt from the one gun per month, even if it is not a C&R firearm.
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  #59  
Old 06-28-2009, 9:38 AM
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Here is something to think about tenpercentfirearms:

You say that you don't see how the penal code allows handguns to be sold (numerous times). That means that either (A) you are not reading the section correctly or (B) it is actually illegal to transfer handguns and you need to stop doing it to avoiding breaking the law until you can determine how to legally transfer handguns.

If it is (B), then you will have made many anti-gun people happy since they have wanted to ban handguns and it will show that you are smarter than all the lawyers in California.

If it is (A), then you need to figure out where you went wrong.

Since it seems to be legal to transfer handguns, it tends to point in the right direction. I am willing to give you a hint: 12077(d)(4) is split up into two parts. The first sentence and the second sentence. The first sentence really just applies to handgun transactions and the second applies just to non-handgun transactions. If you look at it that way, then handgun transfers are legal.

In other silly comments, you state that you must not be breaking the law because you have not been caught. In similar (non) logic, that means that murder is legal if the person who committed the murder has not been caught, especially if they have talked to the police (similiar to your inspections). Now, if the person who killed another goes on trial and it is found to not be murder, manslaughter, etc., then they have not actually violated the law.
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Old 06-28-2009, 1:46 PM
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Could someone hand over the popcorn? This is interesting.

I hope this only stands as words cause we don't want to lose any of you. A lot of people needs your services.
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  #61  
Old 06-29-2009, 8:36 AM
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I hope this only stands as words cause we don't want to lose any of you. A lot of people needs your services.
That is exactly the reason why I want to convince tenpercentfirearms of what the law is and to follow said law. With the exception of B&B Guns, it only harms the pro-firearms people if a FFL is taken out of business for not following the rules. It is hard enough to follow all the rules and not make a simple mistake, but to push issues without a solid basis it just not a good idea.
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