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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 06-10-2009, 7:38 PM
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Default Are AOW's legal for California purchase?

Hi Folks,

A friend made me aware today that AOW's might be legal in California. Is this true and if so, are there any restrictions on the AOW (caliber, size, name, etc)

thanks,
Ron
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Old 06-10-2009, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by HendersonDefense View Post
Hi Folks,

A friend made me aware today that AOW's might be legal in California. Is this true and if so, are there any restrictions on the AOW (caliber, size, name, etc)

thanks,
Ron
AOW's are indeed legal for CA purchase.

all federal laws apply... and all CA assault weapon laws apply where applicable.

You should talk to hoffmang as IIRC he was looking into those about a year ago or so.
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Old 06-10-2009, 7:48 PM
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Yes, AOWs are legal as long as they violate no other PC sections. So, you can't have an AOW detachable-mag AR-pistol because it would be an AW. YOu could have an fixed-mag AR-pistol with a VFG registered as an AOW.

AOWs made from PG-only "shotguns" are considered SBS's in CA, but are exempt from the SBS regulations if properly registered as an AOW.

Pen guns are specifically exempted from the AOW exemption, so, no pen guns even with a tax stamp.

The main problem we run into is that we haven't been able to findt any NFA dealers in CA willing to transfer CA-legal NFA items. My local dealer doesn't want to upset the sheriff by selling "those types of firearms to the public". Another issue is that the Roster may apply. Now, there are ways to configure the AOW to make it exempt from the Roster, and I've joked that Mark Serbu aught to submit the Super Shorty for drop testing

So, since we don't have NFA dealers that'll transfer to us, most of the legal AOWs in CA lately have been done on Form 1s. Now, there is one other option, purchase the host gun ourselves and sent it to an NFA manufacturer to have him modify it into an AOW and then send it back on a Form 4. By doing that, it can be returned directly to the owner without having to be reDROSed or 4473d. It is merely a return of a firearm back to its owner. M24armorer offers that service.

edit: Look at the link in my sig for more info.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:01 PM
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Ok, I'm in the AF. Gimme me some slack. What is an AOW?
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:05 PM
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Ok, I'm in the AF. Gimme me some slack. What is an AOW?
"Any Other Weapon" under the 1934 National Firearms Act.

In other words, if its NOT a pistol, rifle or shotgun as the act defines those terms, its falls under the AOW Catchall.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:05 PM
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Any Other Weapon -
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:06 PM
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Any Other Weapon. Basically wierd stuff like cane guns, flashlight guns, cellphone guns, smoothbore pistols, and other conceallable stuff that does not meet the definition of a pistol.

A 12ga Super Shorty is an AOW because it is a smoothbore pistol. Federally, it isnt' a Short barreled Shotgun because the host gun (manufactured with only a pistol grip) never met the definition of a shotgun, which requires a shoulder stock.

A pistol with a vertical forward grip is also an AOW per ATF opinion since they feel it no longer meets the definition of a pistol.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:22 PM
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REALLY????????

So, we can build a new AK47 AOW with 9" barrel, no stock, Romanian pistol grip lower handguard with a Raddlock and I could sell it to a California resident? WOW... I was not aware of this

We built this from a new WASR rifle that had the muzzle ruined during shipping. There are always a few WASR's that we demil because I don't like the quality and don't want to pass them off dealers. Of course this is a SBR and I am just using it as an example of what we do to rifles get damaged during shipping.



thanks,
Ron
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
The main problem we run into is that we haven't been able to findt any NFA dealers in CA willing to transfer CA-legal NFA items. My local dealer doesn't want to upset the sheriff by selling "those types of firearms to the public". Another issue is that the Roster may apply. Now, there are ways to configure the AOW to make it exempt from the Roster, and I've joked that Mark Serbu aught to submit the Super Shorty for drop testing
I just want to back up what Jack here is saying. This is a big issue with NFA stuff for us in CA.

We can have AOW's as well as C&R SBS's and SBR's. The problem is the very few NFA dealers in the state just won't deal with civilians, and most of them think they can't legally transfer to us anyways.

And for the record, I would totally donate money to buying 3 super shorty's for roster drop testing All it needs is a loaded-chamber indicator!
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:26 PM
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HendersonDefense View Post
We built this from a new WASR rifle that had the muzzle ruined during shipping. There are always a few WASR's that we demil because I don't like the quality and don't want to pass them off dealers. Of course this is a SBR and I am just using it as an example of what we do to rifles get damaged during shipping.
Those would be PERFECT!!

Do the bare minimum to make them CA legal as semi-auto non-rifle long guns (NO STOCKS!), so that we can buy them and transfer them in as a Title 1 easily. Once transferred to us, we just turn around and immediately ship them back to you for demil'ing.

Then we can Form 1 them and once we get our tax stamps you can finish the demil process and send it back as an AOW.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HendersonDefense View Post
REALLY????????

So, we can build a new AK47 AOW with 9" barrel, no stock, Romanian pistol grip lower handguard with a Raddlock and I could sell it to a California resident? WOW... I was not aware of this

We built this from a new WASR rifle that had the muzzle ruined during shipping. There are always a few WASR's that we demil because I don't like the quality and don't want to pass them off dealers. Of course this is a SBR and I am just using it as an example of what we do to rifles get damaged during shipping.



thanks,
Ron
Im not sure about that.... If it ever had a stock it would then become a Short Barrel Rifle (illegal in CA)....

And If it NEVER had a stock wouldnt it just be a PISTOL? But then it would have to be on the Safe handgun list?
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by HendersonDefense View Post
REALLY????????

So, we can build a new AK47 AOW with 9" barrel, no stock, Romanian pistol grip lower handguard with a Raddlock and I could sell it to a California resident? WOW... I was not aware of this
Yes, that item is legal in CA as an AOW. With the fixed-mag, CA does not regulate VFGs on pistols, so you only have to comply with federal law.

Unfortunately you'll have a hard time finding a dealer willing to transfer it to you.

What you could do is sell him the single shot AK pistol and have it transfered to him in a roster exempt configuration. Then, once he owns it, he can send it back to you for you to Form 2 it into an AOW. Then, you file a Form 4 to transfer it directly back to him without needing to use a local NFA dealer.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:36 PM
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A little birdie told me that PRKarms is getting their NFA dealer paperwork sorted out.

Once its settled they will probably be ok with receiving NFA transfers from out of state dealers like henderson.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:37 PM
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Im not sure about that.... If it ever had a stock it would then become a Short Barrel Rifle (illegal in CA)....

And If it NEVER had a stock wouldnt it just be a PISTOL? But then it would have to be on the Safe handgun list?

Agreed 100% and that's why I stated that the picture is was just an example of what did to a WASR that had a damaged barrel.

You folks could actually order a receiver from NoDak and WASR from us. You would Form 1 the receiver and we could demil the WASR and convert it into an AOW because we are an 07FFL/02SOT. I am just thinking out loud here and if I am missing something, let me know.

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Old 06-10-2009, 8:38 PM
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And If it NEVER had a stock wouldnt it just be a PISTOL? But then it would have to be on the Safe handgun list?
set it up as a dimensionally compliant single-shot pistol and it would be roster exempt.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:42 PM
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You folks could actually order a receiver from NoDak and WASR from us. You would Form 1 the receiver and we could demil the WASR and convert it into an AOW because we are an 07FFL/02SOT. I am just thinking out loud here and if I am missing something, let me know.

thanks,
Ron
that should work, but it would be easier if we could buy a single-shot AK-pistol from you and DROS it through our local dealer. Then send it back to you to have you Form 2 it and return it on a Form 4. That'll save us $195 in transfer fees between a Form 1 and Form 4. Part of that $195 could be spent to have you engrave it and VFG it, and do the paperwork.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:43 PM
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set it up as a dimensionally compliant single-shot pistol and it would be roster exempt.
Ok... but then its not an AOW right, and the NFA rules dont apply?


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Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

What am I missing?
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:48 PM
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Ok... but then its not an AOW right, and the NFA rules dont apply?
right, without a VFG, it is not an AOW. But a VFG'ed pistol IS an AOW, and if set up as a single-shot handgun is still exempt from the Roster, even with a VFG.

The problem is that currently there are no NFA dealer willing to transfer an AOW. Untill we can find local NFA dealers willing to transfer AOWs, there is no point in Henderson trying to sell an AOW in CA. People either need to Form 1 their own AOW, or have an 07/02 "repair" a customer-supplied host gun to be made into an AOW and then returned back to the customer on a Form 4 without having to use a local NFA dealer.
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:54 PM
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right, without a VFG, it is not an AOW. But a VFG'ed pistol IS an AOW, and if set up as a single-shot handgun is still exempt from the Roster, even with a VFG.

The problem is that currently there are no NFA dealer willing to transfer an AOW. Untill we can find local NFA dealers willing to transfer AOWs, there is no point in Henderson trying to sell an AOW in CA. People either need to Form 1 their own AOW, or have an 07/02 "repair" a customer-supplied host gun to be made into an AOW and then returned back to the customer on a Form 4 without having to use a local NFA dealer.
VFG? Vertical Forward Grip I assume? Does the Banana Magazine equal the VFG?

So would the Krinkov just be considered a pistol if single shot and fixed mag?
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Old 06-10-2009, 8:56 PM
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And for the record, I would totally donate money to buying 3 super shorty's for roster drop testing All it needs is a loaded-chamber indicator!
why would it need an LCI. AFAIK, only semi-automatic pistols are required to have the LCI and mag disconnect. A super shorty is not a semi-automatic pistol. In fact, last time I looked, I don't recall even seeing a testing procedure for pump-action or lever-action handguns.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:00 PM
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VFG? Vertical Forward Grip I assume? Does the Banana Magazine equal the VFG?

So would the Krinkov just be considered a pistol if single shot and fixed mag?
It has to be TRANSFERRED as a single shot. After that the owner is ok to do whatever he is inclined to do, including converting to semi-auto, as long as they do not manufacture an AW(mag lock has to stay on)
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:00 PM
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VFG? Vertical Forward Grip I assume?

So would the Krinkov just be considered a pistol if single shot and fixed mag?
yup for both questions. As long as that Krinkov was originally built from a parts kit into a semi-auto fiream without a shoulder-stock, it is a pistol and not an SBR. With a SLED (zero-round mag) fixed into the receiver, it fits the definition of a single-shot pistol and similar items have been routinely DROSed as roster-exempt handguns. With AOW paperwork, you could then attach a VFG to that pistol.

Quote:
Does the Banana Magazine equal the VFG?
no, the magazine does not turn a handgun into a VFG. It is not designed to be a forward grip, even though many people use it that way. In fact, you could even install a normal bipod (not one of those grip-pods) and use it as a forward grip and it isn't a VFG. Look at the Ruger Charger as an example.

ATF opines that an actual second grip has to be installed to turn it into a VFG.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:03 PM
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yup for both questions. As long as that Krinkov was originally built from a parts kit into a semi-auto fiream without a shoulder-stock, it is a pistol and not an SBR. With a SLED (zero-round mag) fixed into the receiver, it fits the definition of a single-shot pistol and similar items have been routinely DROSed as roster-exempt handguns. With AOW paperwork, you could then attach a VFG to that pistol.
OK... Cause that looks like a pretty badass little gun with or with out a forward grip.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:06 PM
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OK... Cause that looks like a pretty badass little gun with or with out a forward grip.
That they are.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:09 PM
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OK... Cause that looks like a pretty badass little gun with or with out a forward grip.
Yes they are...
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:11 PM
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yup for both questions. As long as that Krinkov was originally built from a parts kit into a semi-auto fiream without a shoulder-stock, it is a pistol and not an SBR. With a SLED (zero-round mag) fixed into the receiver, it fits the definition of a single-shot pistol and similar items have been routinely DROSed as roster-exempt handguns. With AOW paperwork, you could then attach a VFG to that pistol.

no, the magazine does not turn a handgun into a VFG. It is not designed to be a forward grip, even though many people use it that way. In fact, you could even install a normal bipod (not one of those grip-pods) and use it as a forward grip and it isn't a VFG. Look at the Ruger Charger as an example.

ATF opines that an actual second grip has to be installed to turn it into a VFG.
Tell me more about this "Sled" concept.... Ive never heard of this.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:18 PM
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SLED is a device that looks like a magazine, but holds zero rounds. It is designed to allow you to easily load a single round into the firearm and then close the bolt, chambering the round. A SLED can be made from a magazine by modifying the magazine. IIRC, some calgunners offer SLED making services for non-AR-type SLEDs.

http://www.dctechs.com/obspage.htm

If you used a single-round magazine, you could, load a round into the chamber and then remove and top-off the magazine. Re-inserted, it is now a two-shot handgun, and not roster-exempt. So, the magazine needs to be a zero-round magazine, just something to fill the mag slot.
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:21 PM
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SLED is a device that looks like a magazine, but holds zero rounds. It is designed to allow you to easily load a single round into the firearm and then close the bolt, chambering the round. A SLED can be made from a magazine by modifying the magazine. IIRC, some calgunners offer SLED making services for non-AR-type SLEDs.

http://www.dctechs.com/obspage.htm

If you used a single-round magazine, you could, load a round into the chamber and then remove and top-off the magazine. Re-inserted, it is now a two-shot handgun, and not roster-exempt. So, the magazine needs to be a zero-round magazine, just something to fill the mag slot.
Wow... Never heard of such a thing.... So if this is the only thing between us and "unsafe Handguns" why isnt somebody making these for some of the popular off list pistols???
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Old 06-10-2009, 9:48 PM
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yup, pretty much. Guys like PRKarms make or have made SLEDs for stuff like those GSG-5 pistols so they can sell them. Just takes work to make one and then get it to an out-of-state middleman FFL to configure the handgun properly and then send to your FFL. And you FFL needs to be willing to DROS it to you as a roster-exempt handgun.


edit: you still need to meet the dimensional requirements, so for stuff like an HK45, the barrel's too short.

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12133(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:08 PM
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Please please don't import AOWs into California...


I was about to have my credit card paid off and if you import them I'll be forced to buy one.

In reality, could you turn a saiga-12 into a AOW here? Since they are only imported with a stock I guess there is no way
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:12 PM
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In reality, could you turn a saiga-12 into a AOW here? Since they are only imported with a stock I guess there is no way
correct, since it originally had a stock, it can't become an AOW. But, if you wanted one, you could demill a saiga-12 and rebuild it on a virgin receiver, perhaps a roll-your-own flat. If built without a stock, that new firearm could be AOW'ed, and "may" be able to be configured with a detachable magazine as well.
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Old 06-11-2009, 7:44 AM
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finally, a use for saiga 12 flats. to this day neither myself nor my buddies could think of a rational reason for demilling a saiga 12.
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Old 06-11-2009, 9:21 AM
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have I said lately that I love this place?
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Old 06-11-2009, 9:59 AM
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Interesting info.

I have a design for a 12 ga. 4-shot pepperbox. It will have
a forward vertical grip and a compensator. So can I fab it
up and register it here in CA as AOW?
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:33 AM
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couple issues arise with that design of yours. Assuming you are talking about a pepperbox smoothbore pistol that takes shotgun shells, not a frontstuffer, it would be an AOW federally. It does not need the VFG to be an AOW, the smoothbore pistol status triggers AOW.

CA would consider it an SBS and possibly a zip gun. Both are 12020 violations, but with an approved AOW Form 1, you are exempt from 12020, so you should be fine with that. I can't think of any other PC sections it would violate, so you do have to check on that. An AOW tax stamp only exempts you from 12020, no other sections.
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Old 06-11-2009, 1:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by command_liner View Post
Interesting info.

I have a design for a 12 ga. 4-shot pepperbox. It will have
a forward vertical grip and a compensator. So can I fab it
up and register it here in CA as AOW?
Yes. But you have to get the tax stamp (AKA Approval) *BEFORE* you begin the manufacturing and you might run afoul of CA's "zip gun" regulations since you aren't a licensed manufacturer and you're not copying an already-made design from a licensed manufacturer.


Edit: Looks like Jack beat me to the punch on the zip gun stuff... So I guess that won't be a problem
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Old 06-11-2009, 1:51 PM
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Yes. But you have to get the tax stamp (AKA Approval) *BEFORE* you begin the manufacturing
thanks for the reminder on that. Yes, you have to have the approved Form 1 in your hands before you make it.
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Old 06-11-2009, 3:14 PM
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An ATF-APPROVED AOW with a Solar Tactical mag lock and 10/20 mag originally built as a single-shot from a flat. Say hello to my little friend.


Last edited by vandal; 06-11-2009 at 3:18 PM..
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:27 PM
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REALLY????????

So, we can build a new AK47 AOW with 9" barrel, no stock, Romanian pistol grip lower handguard with a Raddlock and I could sell it to a California resident? WOW... I was not aware of this

We built this from a new WASR rifle that had the muzzle ruined during shipping. There are always a few WASR's that we demil because I don't like the quality and don't want to pass them off dealers. Of course this is a SBR and I am just using it as an example of what we do to rifles get damaged during shipping.



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Seriously.
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