Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-25-2009, 8:58 AM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default which swiss rifle makes for a better shooter

im looking between a k31 and 1911 swiss rifles. i want to build up a great little target/match type rifle. i dont plan to change the barrel but may if it is needed. i need some input on which route is better for my application. i chose to go swiss because i hear all of their rifles are great right out of the factory and they last long too.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-25-2009, 9:28 AM
ocabj's Avatar
ocabj ocabj is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Riverside
Posts: 7,168
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

What kind of matches?
__________________

Distinguished Rifleman #1924
NRA Certified Instructor (Rifle and Metallic Cartridge Reloading) and RSO
https://www.ocabj.net | http://jocabphoto.com

My AR15 Service Rifle - Used for CMP/NRA High Power Service Rifle Competitions
My Eliseo R5 (Remington 700) Tube Gun - Used for NRA High Power (Match Category) Competitions
My M1 Garand Service Rifle - Used for JCG Matches, rebuilt by Dean's Gun Restorations
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Tony.'s Avatar
Tony. Tony. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: LA County
Posts: 747
iTrader: 50 / 100%
Default

Leave the C&R's alone. It would be a crying shame to bubba a K31 or 1911 rifle. Shoot them as is and enjoy the workmanship, think about how advanced these rifles were for their day.

If you are looking for something to start with then build up on in the future, then go with a Remington 5R. A lot more options and less dirty looks at the range.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-25-2009, 10:35 AM
Pthfndr's Avatar
Pthfndr Pthfndr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns. Near Tahoe
Posts: 3,690
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go. No need to "bubba" anything. You can by the front and rear sights made by Swiss Products (St. Marie) from Graf & Sons.






If you want to shoot in vintage rifle "as issued" matches, either will be good, but the 1911 has a reputation for slightly better accuracy. It IS substantially longer than a K31 though which can be a problem for some people in off hand shooting.

If you're thinking of something scoped, yeah you can do that without altering the rifle, I've done it. But there are better choices.

__________________
Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-25-2009, 10:57 AM
SDJim SDJim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 883
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

[QUOTE=Pthfndr;2530723]If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go. No need to "bubba" anything. You can by the front and rear sights made by Swiss Products (St. Marie) from Graf & Sons.






If you want to shoot in vintage rifle "as issued" matches, either will be good, but the 1911 has a reputation for slightly better accuracy. It IS substantially longer than a K31 though which can be a problem for some people in off hand shooting.

If you're thinking of something scoped, yeah you can do that without altering the rifle, I've done it. But there are better choices.


Does rear sight have enough elevation to get out to 1000yds with GP11 or equivalent ammunition?
__________________

-Duct tape is like The Force. It has a dark side. It has a light side.
Used correctly, it holds the universe together. Used
incorrectly, it sticks your cat to the wall. -
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:38 AM
Pthfndr's Avatar
Pthfndr Pthfndr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns. Near Tahoe
Posts: 3,690
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDJim View Post
Does rear sight have enough elevation to get out to 1000yds with GP11 or equivalent ammunition?
No. 600 is for sure. Depending on manufacturing tolerances of the receiver 800 might be possible. I have one that will make it with the clamp on rear diopter set up, but all my others don't quite make it.

I have a front sight that St Marie made and sent me a few years ago. It's lower and allows the rifle to be used out to 1000 yards and then some. But it zeros at about 300-350 yards as the shortest distance.
__________________
Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:40 AM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?

and im not so much looking to jump into matches right away. never did one. its something id like to get into though if possible but i dont even know where to begin. i shoot most all of my rifles with surplus ammo and havent spent nearly enough time honing my skills with a nive set of ammo. thats why i was hoping on getting something better out of the swiss, seeing as how the surplus costs more than decent commercial, it will kinda make my buy some good quality ammo for it.

the springfield i have now is scoped & stocked and is a really straight shooter, but i didnt build it myself. i bought it because it was already built by someone else. therefore it has no sentimental value to me, so im trying to get rid of that rifle to get a stock one to work up myself. i figured the k31 has a hell of a reputation, has a nice look, has plenty of ammo available without huge demends (like the 30.06 for the springfield) for a decent price, and you can find plenty of parts and stocks for them.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-25-2009, 11:41 AM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

... and maybe get into match later with the k31
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-25-2009, 1:04 PM
Pthfndr's Avatar
Pthfndr Pthfndr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns. Near Tahoe
Posts: 3,690
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdigity View Post
i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?
http://www.grafs.com/search?q=swiss+...process%22%3B}

The same lists the clamp on scope mount you see in my scoped K31 picture.

Do search for K31s on Calguns in the Curio and Relic forum. There are quite a few pictures of them with various scope set ups.

ETA: FYI, changing the barrel on a Swiss rifle is not easily done. It's not like doing it on a Rem/Win/Savage at all.

If you are near the Sacramento area come check out the Milsurp Silhouette match at the Sac Valley range on the 3rd Saturday of every month. Lots of K31 rifles, with issue sights, scopes, and diopters are used.
__________________
Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match

Last edited by Pthfndr; 05-25-2009 at 1:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-25-2009, 1:36 PM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

san diego. ill check the site thopugh. thanks. also, not familiar with barrel swaps, but i know someone who will gladly take my money and do it for me
__________________
"I suppose i can part with one and still be feared..." -Prof. Hubert J. Farnesworth
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-25-2009, 2:03 PM
popeye4's Avatar
popeye4 popeye4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Santa Cruz mountains
Posts: 1,480
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdigity View Post
i was thinking of going with the scope but i like the looks of that sight setup. cant find where to get them though. do you have a link maybe?

and im not so much looking to jump into matches right away. never did one. its something id like to get into though if possible but i dont even know where to begin. i shoot most all of my rifles with surplus ammo and havent spent nearly enough time honing my skills with a nive set of ammo. thats why i was hoping on getting something better out of the swiss, seeing as how the surplus costs more than decent commercial, it will kinda make my buy some good quality ammo for it.

the springfield i have now is scoped & stocked and is a really straight shooter, but i didnt build it myself. i bought it because it was already built by someone else. therefore it has no sentimental value to me, so im trying to get rid of that rifle to get a stock one to work up myself. i figured the k31 has a hell of a reputation, has a nice look, has plenty of ammo available without huge demends (like the 30.06 for the springfield) for a decent price, and you can find plenty of parts and stocks for them.
You don't need to do anything more to a K31 to make it shoot. They can be had for around $300 or less now. The Carmel Gun Club shoots at the Swiss range in Gonzales for the first four months of the year (http://www.carmelgunclub.com/SWISS%20Matches.html). All Swiss rifle matches are shot at 300m on Swiss targets (the A10 target has a 10-ring that is only a few inches across). Also, you can't get any better than surplus Swiss GP11 ammo (it is what the Swiss use for match ammo). Commercial stuff won't be as good. I picked up a 480 rd case for $275 from Ammoman a couple of months back.

BTW, that sight setup is the Ste. Marie Graphics sight and I got mine at Grafs. They accept the Gehmann and Anschutz diopter attachments as well as the iris that comes with it. No gunsmithing required, they just bolt on (a requirement to use them in Swiss matches).

As another poster mentioned, don't chop up the old guns. They aren't made any more and there are enough butchered up Springfields, etc. out there. If you want to build up an accurate "target" rifle, get a Savage and go from there.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-25-2009, 2:32 PM
4 Brigada's Avatar
4 Brigada 4 Brigada is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,125
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Quote:
If you are thinking about one you can shoot in High Power in the match rifle class with iron sights (aperture sights), then the K31 is the way to go.
+1
Pthfndr NICE K-31, those sights are not inexpensive, but they are certainly worth it.
__________________
I have neither the inclination or the time to relieve people of the regional and ethnic handicaps that they inherited from their ancestors.

You should banish any thoughts of how you may appear to others.
Marcus Aurelius

"I won't be wronged, I wont be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
the "Duke" in the shootist
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-25-2009, 3:02 PM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post
As another poster mentioned, don't chop up the old guns. They aren't made any more and there are enough butchered up Springfields, etc. out there. If you want to build up an accurate "target" rifle, get a Savage and go from there.
point well taken. will invest in the swiss surplus ammo too
__________________
"I suppose i can part with one and still be feared..." -Prof. Hubert J. Farnesworth
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-25-2009, 3:13 PM
popeye4's Avatar
popeye4 popeye4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Santa Cruz mountains
Posts: 1,480
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Check out www.swissrifles.com for more info.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-26-2009, 4:27 PM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pthfndr View Post
so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?
__________________
"I suppose i can part with one and still be feared..." -Prof. Hubert J. Farnesworth
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-26-2009, 6:23 PM
Pthfndr's Avatar
Pthfndr Pthfndr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns. Near Tahoe
Posts: 3,690
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdigity View Post
so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?
The type P comes with both the front aperture sight assembly and the rear sight assembly that clamps directly to the receiver. (what I have)

The PII also comes with both front and rear sight assemblies, but the rear sight is of the type that clamps onto one of their clamp on scope mounts - which clamps onto the receiver - but does NOT include the clamp on scope mount.

The PIIC includes everything in the PII set up PLUS the clamp on scope mount.

If you have the money I would recommend getting the PIIC. That way you can use the aperture sights, and you can also remove the rear sight and stick a scope on it.

The Swiss Products website has better pics than Graf and good pictures. But they do not sell direct.

http://www.swissproductsllc.com/
__________________
Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-26-2009, 6:28 PM
popeye4's Avatar
popeye4 popeye4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Santa Cruz mountains
Posts: 1,480
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdigity View Post
so help me figure this out, i need the diopter type P which is the front only, and then either the diopter type P II or type P IIC which is either only the back or the back plus a scope mount, correct?
Their site isn't exactly clear, is it? I purchased the STDIOA03 and it is the front sight plus the shorter rear mount with iris. That seems to be the one that the Swiss shooters in Monterey use.

You could drop a note to Grafs to get an explanation of the different models. They should make their site a bit more informative.

FYI, for the sight to be legal for use in Swiss shooting, the aperture sights have to be bolt on. Gunsmith sights aren't allowed.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-26-2009, 6:31 PM
rogdigity rogdigity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: santonio texas
Posts: 805
iTrader: 15 / 94%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye4 View Post

FYI, for the sight to be legal for use in Swiss shooting, the aperture sights have to be bolt on. Gunsmith sights aren't allowed.

thats cool, im down with these. expensive, yes. cool looking, YES
__________________
"I suppose i can part with one and still be feared..." -Prof. Hubert J. Farnesworth
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-26-2009, 8:28 PM
Pthfndr's Avatar
Pthfndr Pthfndr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns. Near Tahoe
Posts: 3,690
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

I did this with the K31 with the aperture sights, prone with a sling, at 100 yards on a reduced (to the correct size) Swiss target. I did lose one out the left



For size reference, here's the Swiss target next to the standard 100 yard SR1 target.

__________________
Rob Thomas - Match Director NCPPRC Tactical Long Range Match

Match Director Sac Valley Vintage Military Rifle Long Range Match
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-26-2009, 8:36 PM
popeye4's Avatar
popeye4 popeye4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Santa Cruz mountains
Posts: 1,480
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

The Swiss A10 target is the same as the international ISSF 300m target. The A5 target is shot on the same A10, but you double up the rings to give 5 rings (instead of 10), so the 9 and 10 ring are the 5 ring, the 7 and 8 rings are the 4 ring, etc. The ISSF targets have a target black that is 8 moa across, the NRA highpower target is 6 moa across. It is a challenge, to say the least!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:19 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.