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  #281  
Old 06-19-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
non-residents should avoid it as other charges could get upgraded to a felony.
I don't think that is the case. The codes refer to "any person" so whether you are a California resident or not has no bearing.

Panamajack is referring to the code that allows hunters and fishermen to carry concealed, unloaded, while on the way to an expedition, and concealed, loaded, while hunting and fishing.
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  #282  
Old 06-19-2011, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jorrell View Post
It sounds like LOC in my campsite is OK regardless, it's just that getting to that campsite might be complicated by UOC being a "bad idea".
Although completely legal (assuming you're not in a Wilderness that explicitly prohibits possession -- of which I know of none that enforces this), it may be a 'bad idea' in a highly populated area, like Yosemite Valley. You're likely to bring down a lot of heat on yourself by way of the Ranger as he will undoubtedly get many complains of 'man with a gun'. Do yourself a favor and get a Fish&Game license along with a Safepacker Holster and then you can carry concealed (unloaded) and avoid the drama.
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  #283  
Old 06-19-2011, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
What the link makes clear is that posting of the restriction is required:


No sign, then carry is ok.........and this includes most bathrooms not inside another building.
I wouldn't feel too welcome based on the text below taken from the link posted...there's not a lot of grey to "all restrooms" and "prohibited", but I will admit to being a bit paranoid:
-----
In Lassen Volcanic National Park, this includes all administrative buildings, non-residential buildings, and buildings that serve the public. A partial list of the facilities that serve the public where firearms are prohibited include:

•Kohm Yah-mah-nee Visitor Center
•Loomis Museum
•Discovery Center
•Manzanita Lake Camper Services Store
•All Drakesbad Guest Lodge facilities
•All restrooms
-----
http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

Sign or no sign, I won't be shaving while wearing a sidearm in this park! ;-}

Last edited by PanamaJack; 06-19-2011 at 1:33 PM..
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  #284  
Old 06-19-2011, 1:35 PM
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I was at Lassen in April, and, also being paranoid, and exercising my rights, did not see any 18 USC 930 signage on individual restrooms. That may have changed. The fact remains that if there is not signage at every entrance to a Federal building prohibiting firearms, one may carry UOC if not in a school zone, or CCW if permitted. The Lassen rules we are referencing imply that the prohibited buildings are marked, as they should. There is actually zero mystery about CCWing, in particular, in California. There is either a sign, or there isn't.
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  #285  
Old 06-19-2011, 3:31 PM
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Thanks, point taken on presence or absence of signage - being a non-resident, confronted by a crazy quilt of laws, I'm certainly trying to plan in advance where the problem areas will be with no first hand knowledge of the area yet. We'll be in the Mammoth Lakes area from July - Nov, and I'm happy to have a Mammoth Brewery beer with you if you're in the area around that time, just PM me!
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  #286  
Old 06-20-2011, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jorrell View Post
Alright I've tried to understand the thread. Thank you MudCamper for putting this together. I have a question specific to residents of other states. I've read elsewhere that even in places where UOC is legal, non-residents should avoid it as other charges could get upgraded to a felony. It sounds like PanamaJack was trying to use hunting as a way to get around that. I don't hunt though and don't always fish.

As a backpacker from another state making an extended tour of CA and hiking between campsites within areas such as Stanislaus, Lassen, Mendocino, King Range (BLM/National Conservation Area) etc and other WAs, NFs and BLM lands is UOC ill advised? Or are the rules the same for everyone?

It sounds like LOC in my campsite is OK regardless, it's just that getting to that campsite might be complicated by UOC being a "bad idea".
The only difference I can think if is a 12025 (concealed) or 12031 (loaded) charge is only a misdemeanor if the handgun is "registered" to you. If it is not, then those charges can be felony. Since you are not a CA resident, then obviously the gun is not "registered" (with the CA DOJ). But since you won't be concealing (without locking it in a fully enclosed case) nor loading where you shouldn't, then this doesn't matter.

To those that warn that you "shouldn't" (carry), I disagree. But do what you are most comfortable with. My comfort level is this: I UOC everywhere in NF and BLM and LOC/LCC in my campsites. It just keeps everything simple. I haven't visited a NP in decades. I LUCC in State Parks but try to avoid them.
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  #287  
Old 06-20-2011, 2:07 PM
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Thanks Mudcamper I think you're probably right that it only applies to those two specific rules. I'd heard that it was a sentencing enhancement. Time for me to go re-read the specific wording.
I was worried I'd accidentally cross an invisible line and suddenly be committing a felony. I'll run it by one of the rangers up there just to see their take on it.

I tend to avoid NPs or regions with a high people density so scaring people isn't a big worry for me.

SiegeX thanks for the SafePacker link. I've seen one once before and it does look like a great idea. I wish there were a locking mechanism for it so it could be used as a "secure container" while in a vehicle. I don't always carry fishing equipment on every trip so I think trying to use the fishing/hunting exceptions may not solve everything for me.
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  #288  
Old 06-20-2011, 8:13 PM
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Hi guys, I have a dumb question about being armed on BLM land. Not a LEGAL question, the guidelines here are quite clear (and thank you!) but a question about the grey area, for example folks getting into trouble over carrying lead in a self defense sidearm while hunting with copper in their rifle in the condor zone. (which some folks here have said has happened)

Here's the scenario:

I'm trying to get a buddy (unlicensed) to go with me scouting into some BLM land. I am licensed and will be carrying a loaded rifle (you know. Just in case.) If I am hunting and he is not, could he potentially get into trouble carrying a firearm loaded with lead snake shot? Seems like I have every legal base covered, but it is still an unlicensed person with a licensed person with lead (snake shot) in the condor zone. (I'm covered every which way, licensed, tagged, non-lead, rifle, etc)

Do you think any authority we may run into would recognize our purely good intentions? Or am I not able to "sell" my buddy on the ability to carry on public land (till he gets his license for next season)
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  #289  
Old 06-21-2011, 4:06 PM
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So this is interesting. I called up the Bishop Fish & Game and asked them what, if any, game was legal to hunt in the Ansel Adams Wilderness. Her response was that she didn't believe you can hunt at all in the Wilderness but she transferred me to somebody who was more knowledgeable in this manner. The phone rang to voice mail so I left my contact info; that was on Monday. About 10 minutes ago I received call regarding my voice mail. It turns out this more knowledgeable person was actually a biologist and not a fish & game warden. According to him you can legally hunt all upland birds and deer in the Ansel Adams Wilderness. I wasn't planning on taking out any deer on my 3 day hike, but I wouldn't mind taking aim at some pheasant or quail.

It really amazes me just how mysterious these gun laws seem to be to the people who are supposed to enforce them. How are we supposed to follow them if the source isn't even sure what they are? At this point I don't think my level of confidence is high enough to actually discharge my firearm in anything but an emergency in this wilderness.

Last edited by SiegeX; 06-21-2011 at 4:14 PM..
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  #290  
Old 06-22-2011, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Here's the scenario:

I'm trying to get a buddy (unlicensed) to go with me scouting into some BLM land. I am licensed and will be carrying a loaded rifle (you know. Just in case.) If I am hunting and he is not, could he potentially get into trouble carrying a firearm loaded with lead snake shot? Seems like I have every legal base covered, but it is still an unlicensed person with a licensed person with lead (snake shot) in the condor zone. (I'm covered every which way, licensed, tagged, non-lead, rifle, etc)

Do you think any authority we may run into would recognize our purely good intentions? Or am I not able to "sell" my buddy on the ability to carry on public land (till he gets his license for next season)
Not sure. F&G codes can be quite the tar baby. I'll ask a warden friend of mine what his opinion is. This is sort of like a related question I've seen: Bow hunter (no firearms allowed) has a friend with him with no hunting license who has a handgun. Would they get into trouble? Again I don't know.
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  #291  
Old 06-22-2011, 7:50 AM
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Well, the law seems clear, if we were SHOOTING then should be a no brainer, yes? but since we'll be scouting and MAY find an animal, it's not a code thing.... I don't want to use the word harass because all the DFG and DFS guys I've met are cool as heck, but it's not my intent to push the limit. Just carry some lead snake shot in a pistol without worry.
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  #292  
Old 06-22-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Not sure. F&G codes can be quite the tar baby. I'll ask a warden friend of mine what his opinion is
I don't suppose while you're at it, you could also ask your warden friend about my hunting in Ansel Adams issue. I really don't think I should be taking legal advice from a biologist.
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  #293  
Old 06-22-2011, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Not sure. F&G codes can be quite the tar baby. I'll ask a warden friend of mine what his opinion is. This is sort of like a related question I've seen: Bow hunter (no firearms allowed) has a friend with him with no hunting license who has a handgun. Would they get into trouble? Again I don't know.
Definitely similar question. We could go further. firearms ALLOWED, does the warden say he has cause that the unliscenced guy with a handgun is "hunting" thus breaking the law? or does it follow the category of loaded open carry on public land (recognizing that there is no hunting intent), a-ok and no problem, carry on sir?
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  #294  
Old 06-24-2011, 9:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Not sure. F&G codes can be quite the tar baby. I'll ask a warden friend of mine what his opinion is. This is sort of like a related question I've seen: Bow hunter (no firearms allowed) has a friend with him with no hunting license who has a handgun. Would they get into trouble? Again I don't know.
Well my friend is not answering my email. Perhaps I hurt his feelings in this post. So I have to do my own research now:

Title 14 CCR s 353
Quote:
Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted in subsection 353(h) and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any big game within the area described in subsection 353(h).
F&G 4370
Quote:
In every area in which deer may lawfully be taken during the general open season there is an archery season for the taking of deer with bow and arrow. The season for each area shall be as the commission may prescribe, with a minimum interposing interval of three days immediately preceding the regular open season on deer in that area. No person taking or attempting to take deer during such archery season shall carry, or have under his immediate control, any firearm of any kind.
Title 14 CCR s 354(h)
Quote:
Except as provided in subsection 353(g), archers may not possess a firearm while hunting in the field during any archery season, or while hunting during a general season under the provisions of an archery only tag.
So no lead ammo in possession while hunting in lead-free zones and no firearms in possession when bow hunting. No clarification on whether or not "my buddy" has said ammo or firearms in possession, but I'll bet they'll give you a hard time about it at the very least.
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  #295  
Old 06-24-2011, 10:51 AM
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unless lead snakeshot is less than the amount as per 353h?
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  #296  
Old 06-24-2011, 11:13 AM
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Nevermind. Not lead by weight, lead by concentration. snake shot by any other word still means 100% lead =\
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  #297  
Old 06-24-2011, 11:14 AM
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So killing a snake in the condor zone means use steel shot, huh. I guess it's time to start reading up on homemade shot rounds for pistol.
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  #298  
Old 07-13-2011, 7:40 PM
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Discharging a firearm within 150 yards of a campsite. Not having a firearm in possession...big difference.

Bottom line and this thead should be then closed.

Bring your firearm to your campsite...do not wave it around. If a bear or cougar attacks you...shoot it.

"Better tried by 12 than carried by 6"....and never allow any law-enforcement to search you vehicle. If they bring a dog in...that is usually for drugs or illegal game.

Enough said everyone??? Yes???

Stay safe...
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  #299  
Old 07-13-2011, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Here's the scenario:

I'm trying to get a buddy (unlicensed) to go with me scouting into some BLM land. I am licensed and will be carrying a loaded rifle (you know. Just in case.) If I am hunting and he is not, could he potentially get into trouble carrying a firearm loaded with lead snake shot? Seems like I have every legal base covered, but it is still an unlicensed person with a licensed person with lead (snake shot) in the condor zone. (I'm covered every which way, licensed, tagged, non-lead, rifle, etc)

Do you think any authority we may run into would recognize our purely good intentions? Or am I not able to "sell" my buddy on the ability to carry on public land (till he gets his license for next season)
No. Hunting regs are clear: if you are hunting in a no-lead area, you cannot have ANY lead ammo in your possession. Game wardens do check, and I wouldn't bet my liberty on one drawing the line between your personal possession and the possession of another person in your party. Get your buddy to buy a box of no-lead ammo for his firearm. Leave the snakeshot at home.
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  #300  
Old 07-14-2011, 4:31 AM
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Good point White...

Did not even think about the lead shot ban...good job Arnold...dumb a.s.s.!!!! What a fool...

Bottom line...carry a gun to protect yourself...against two and four legged creatures.

Just don't say anything.

Not to be construed (sp?) as legal advice...

Stay safe...
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  #301  
Old 07-14-2011, 5:53 AM
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Wilderness Areas

8. Discharging firearms is permitted only for taking of wildlife under California game laws.

Found on the Stanislaus NF website, search "firearms"

I routinely LOC in my campsite and on BLM land where firearms are not restricted.
Otherwise, LUCC.
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  #302  
Old 07-14-2011, 8:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Discharging a firearm within 150 yards of a campsite. Not having a firearm in possession...big difference.

Bottom line and this thead should be then closed.

Bring your firearm to your campsite...do not wave it around. If a bear or cougar attacks you...shoot it.

"Better tried by 12 than carried by 6"....and never allow any law-enforcement to search you vehicle. If they bring a dog in...that is usually for drugs or illegal game.

Enough said everyone??? Yes???
Respectfully, and vehemently, I disagree that the thread should be closed, or that enough has been said. This thread has been very useful in flushing out all the codes and refining the information back into the first three posts. It continues to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHOD View Post
Wilderness Areas

8. Discharging firearms is permitted only for taking of wildlife under California game laws.

Found on the Stanislaus NF website, search "firearms"
Yes, per 36 CFR 261.58 the NF can restrict firearms use this way. Per 36 CFR 261.57 they can even ban possession in Wilderness areas, although that is now illegal given Heller, plus I've never heard of a CA NF actually using that code.
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  #303  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:26 AM
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Mud...and all others...respectfully,

Codes...Smoosh's....

I deal with codes every day....you can still get arrested. Or, have your firearms taken. That is my point. I have the right to carry that most others on here don't. Just trying to make a point. Go to your camp. ..have a great time...but, don't say that you have a firearm with you.

Better to have your gun and not use it..than to not have it and need it.

Enough said...yes?

Stay safe...
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:21 PM
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Mud...and all others...respectfully,

Codes...Smoosh's....

I deal with codes every day....you can still get arrested. Or, have your firearms taken. That is my point.
While true, I personally strive to make damn sure I am within the law, so that I greatly increase my chances of winning in court should your scenario come true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Go to your camp. ..have a great time...but, don't say that you have a firearm with you.
That is one strategy (discretion). But once outside of one's camp, it won't work, as concealing is illegal in most cases. Thus we learn the laws so as not to break them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Enough said...yes?

Stay safe...
I'll agree on the stay safe part.
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Old 07-14-2011, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Mud...and all others...respectfully,

Codes...Smoosh's....

I deal with codes every day....you can still get arrested. Or, have your firearms taken. That is my point. I have the right to carry that most others on here don't. Just trying to make a point. Go to your camp. ..have a great time...but, don't say that you have a firearm with you.

Better to have your gun and not use it..than to not have it and need it.

Enough said...yes?

Stay safe...
Best advice in the thread.
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Old 07-14-2011, 7:37 PM
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Thanks Taggart...

Not telling anyone to break the law...just don't admit to stuff. Even at this time...with a badge and gun...if a LEO pulled me over and asked to search my vehicle...I would say NO!

My ex-wife would talk to the IRS about stuff...and offer info. I would always tell her...DO NOT offer any info unless asked....duh. The other person that quoted me...outside carry while fishing...is legal. Look it up in the CA penal code...or, is it somewhere else...don't remember.

When I go camping...rare being that I live on a ranch and have access on thousands of acres combined...via friends...I always have my firearm with me. Just in case...

Stay safe...

QUOTE=Taggart;6772285]Best advice in the thread.[/QUOTE]
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Old 07-14-2011, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Not telling anyone to break the law...just don't admit to stuff. Even at this time...with a badge and gun...if a LEO pulled me over and asked to search my vehicle...I would say NO!

My ex-wife would talk to the IRS about stuff...and offer info. I would always tell her...DO NOT offer any info unless asked....duh. The other person that quoted me...outside carry while fishing...is legal. Look it up in the CA penal code...or, is it somewhere else...don't remember.
While I agree with you with regard to exercising your 4th and 5th amendment rights, it's off topic for this thread. There are several hundred (or thousand) threads on that topic over in 2nd Amend. Related Legal & Political Discussion.
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Old 07-14-2011, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Taggart View Post
Best advice in the thread.
Actually, it's really bad advice. It's borderline recommending to just break the law, which also happens to be in violation of forum rules.
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Old 07-14-2011, 9:22 PM
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Wow..Mud needs to have a beer and relax a bit...

The "law" we are speaking about is up for discussion...as I stated...state law trumps any county ordinance. "Violation of forum rules"? Wow..Mud...as I shared...have a beer..or Coke. I personally like Pepsi...relax. You obviously have some anger management issues...take a shower...stretch...do push ups. It's all good...no worries...

Sad that you are so angry...and take things so personally.

I can tell you do not like folks that disagree with you...and I think others can also. Just here to offer my thoughts...

Chill...it will be ok...you are not the supreme expert on here...and neither am I by any means. If you are an LEO...I would be concerned if I was your supervisor....

Just my opinion and thoughts...that's all.

Stay safe...
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Old 07-14-2011, 9:31 PM
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BTW...by the way...

I learned that from my 14 yr old daughter....

She wanted to know what I was laughing about...she read "Muds" posts...and this is from a very smart teenager that I have full custody during my divorce...how many dads out there can say that? Full custody of their daughter's? Let's start a thread about divorce...because it is one big issue regarding us in law-enforcement.

She stated..."what is his problem dad?" Off topic yes...but, very telling. I hope that this is not violating "forum rules"...

Mud..don't be mad...Mud...Mad...LOL

Stay safe...
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Old 07-14-2011, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Actually, it's really bad advice. It's borderline recommending to just break the law, which also happens to be in violation of forum rules.
THIS is the best post of this thread.

If someone wants to suggest, recommend or advocate illegal activity it just might be their last post on CGN....
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  #312  
Old 07-14-2011, 9:39 PM
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jerky, I wasn't mad. And I enjoy disagreement. It's one way to learn. And anger management is a joke BTW. Pseudo-science at best. But your post comes off as passive aggressive. Perhaps you should seek professional counseling. But now I'm contributing to the distraction of an otherwise useful thread. Please take it to PMs if you'd like to continue.
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  #313  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:25 PM
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Great Thread Mud. Thanks for posting this way back when. I'm glad I ran into it now. I do alot of camping and I do currently bring my pistol locked in vehicel. I have a question in regards to the mags. Can keep my 10 round mags loaded in a mag holster on my belt next to my holstered glock while camping or around town? I've seen a man once at the video store open carrying with mags holstered on belt and he didnt look like an LEO. I wanted to talk to him but I was running late and needed to be on my way. Thats the reason I looked this up. Thanks in advanced
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Old 07-15-2011, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy1 View Post
Great Thread Mud. Thanks for posting this way back when. I'm glad I ran into it now. I do alot of camping and I do currently bring my pistol locked in vehicel. I have a question in regards to the mags. Can keep my 10 round mags loaded in a mag holster on my belt next to my holstered glock while camping or around town? I've seen a man once at the video store open carrying with mags holstered on belt and he didnt look like an LEO. I wanted to talk to him but I was running late and needed to be on my way. Thats the reason I looked this up. Thanks in advanced
What you are describing is known around here as unloaded open carry, or UOC. It is often legal, but there are places where it is not, like in "school zones" (which is within 1000 feet of a school). See this site, this flyer and this forum for details. For camping, refer back to the first post in this thread. You'll notice that I use the term UOC. Perhaps it will make more sense now.
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Old 07-15-2011, 8:36 AM
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Thanks for the great info on the thread here!
While fishing/camping at Kennedy Lake in the Emigrant Wilderness, I loaded-open-carried nearly the whole time and enjoyed it! Although no shooting is allowed unless while hunting, the rangers patrolling the area obviously saw my gun while we were talking with them, and they did not even mention it.
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  #316  
Old 07-17-2011, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerkyg View Post
Mud,

Thanks for the mental assessment...you are the expert on here about that..

Stay safe...
When you have a post deleted, do not post it again. Yes, I realize this one is missing one sentence the other one has, but for all intents and purposes, it is the same. Repost a deleted post of an offensive nature and you may be taking a vacation from here.
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  #317  
Old 07-28-2011, 8:03 AM
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MC,

I emailed Rick Howell (rhowell@fs.fed.us) of the Mt. Pinos Ranger District regarding firearms in the Chula Vista Campgrounds in the Los Padres National Forest and here is his response:

"Hunting and gun regs are actually handled by the state and thus California state laws apply. Concealed weapons require a permit in just about every state in the union. Its hard to figure why you feel the need for a concealed weapon in a family campground. You can carry an exposed weapon loaded or not in the forest, but not in the campground. Hunting is allowed on Mt. Pinos BUT you must be 1/4 mi. from any campground or gathering point,(i.e.Parking lot) must NOT shoot across Any road or trail or waterway (wet or not) and you must hunt with lead-free ammo in a "Condor Area". Again these are California State regs and they have many more that could be enforcable by Fish and Game. You should contact them or go to their site. Also, Target shooting is ONLY allowed on the Mt. Pinos Ranger District when fire restrictions permit."
Ranger Rick


Seems like the Ranger Rick is not up-to-date with the new la2.
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  #318  
Old 07-28-2011, 9:02 AM
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Never said anything about "concealed"....

Stay safe....
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  #319  
Old 07-28-2011, 9:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kalifornian View Post
Seems like the Ranger Rick is not up-to-date with the new la2.
This is typical. Asking a Ranger is hit and miss. How are they supposed to keep up with all the subtleties of California law. Sometimes they will get it right and sometimes not.
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Old 07-28-2011, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
This is typical. Asking a Ranger is hit and miss. How are they supposed to keep up with all the subtleties of California law. Sometimes they will get it right and sometimes not.
Any suggestions on who to contact to bring them up to speed with the new law? We are planning on a camping trip in the near future and would want to be sure that I stay within the law.

Thanks.
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