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  #241  
Old 04-08-2011, 12:37 AM
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MudCamper,

Could you link that to your first post so it doesn't get lost in this thread. Also, do you mind linking to PDF's of papers you spoke of that you carry into NF/BLM?

Thanks
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  #242  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
Could you link that to your first post so it doesn't get lost in this thread.
Already did. It's at the end of the first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
Also, do you mind linking to PDF's of papers you spoke of that you carry into NF/BLM?s
- Here are printer friendly versions of the first post and the second post.

- If I have AR/AK type rifles, I carry my old California Rifle flyer and the CA AW Flowchart. If I have BB equipped rifles, I also carry the Sacramento OLL Training Bulletin.

- I also carry the DOJ letter about large capacity magazines.

- Here's the latest field version of the CalGuns USFS/BLM Incident Report Form

Last edited by MudCamper; 08-14-2014 at 10:43 AM..
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  #243  
Old 04-12-2011, 9:57 AM
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Thank you!!! This is the exact info I was looking for.
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  #244  
Old 04-25-2011, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
(F)... Just lost me...Since it is illegal to discharge a firearm with in 150' of any paved road. This seems to rule out LOC on any street, Even if the area is remote and discharge is legal. T or F?
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  #245  
Old 04-25-2011, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlyman View Post
What about state forests? I know that Boggs Demonstration State Forest in Cobb allows the discharge of firearms per BLM standards, but it is a state forest managed by the California Department of Forestry and Fire protection. I'd be curious to hear about that.
I too would like to know more about this because I go into Jackson State Forest frequently to shoot.
Curious what the regulations are because where I go CalFire has been known to screw with people.
Especially if you have a RAW. BTW: Better have you DOJ paperwork with you or you (and everyone around you) are in for a hell of a day.
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  #246  
Old 04-27-2011, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by diginit View Post
(F)... Just lost me...Since it is illegal to discharge a firearm with in 150' of any paved road. This seems to rule out LOC on any street, Even if the area is remote and discharge is legal. T or F?
Federal code does not prohibit shooting within 150 yards of a road. 36 CFR 261.10 (d) reads as follows:

Quote:
The following are prohibited:

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.
It's within 150 yards of buildings, etc., but only across or on roads.
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  #247  
Old 04-27-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlyman View Post
What about state forests? I know that Boggs Demonstration State Forest in Cobb allows the discharge of firearms per BLM standards, but it is a state forest managed by the California Department of Forestry and Fire protection. I'd be curious to hear about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomatic View Post
I too would like to know more about this because I go into Jackson State Forest frequently to shoot.
Curious what the regulations are because where I go CalFire has been known to screw with people.
Especially if you have a RAW. BTW: Better have you DOJ paperwork with you or you (and everyone around you) are in for a hell of a day.
I thought we covered this, but I guess not. I will look into this later when I have more time, but for now here is one of their web pages about State Forests and some links to the codes authorizing management:

http://www.fire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/...ateforests.php
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  #248  
Old 04-28-2011, 9:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
I thought we covered this, but I guess not. I will look into this later when I have more time, but for now here is one of their web pages about State Forests and some links to the codes authorizing management:

http://www.fire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/...ateforests.php

I guess what I need help with is figuring out what organization(s) codes cover Jackson State Forest so I can print out a sheet to carry with me, to compliment the papers you listed a couple of posts up, thanks BTW. The CalFire website has nothing relevant to recreational shooting.

I am going to dig around in the PRC for a bit and see what I can find.
edit: the only thing I can find dealing with firearms is prohibiting using tracers because of the fire hazard.

Going to ask my Game Warden contact up there for info, will post anything relevant.

Last edited by ottomatic; 06-07-2011 at 7:11 AM.. Reason: simplicity
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  #249  
Old 05-09-2011, 1:20 PM
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is this still current? Is there a more up-to-date version?

http://www.jesseshunting.com/images/...t-map-1994.jpg
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  #250  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomatic View Post
Going to ask my Game Warden contact up there for info, will post anything relevant.
Information from a warden can be hit or miss, depending on how knowledgeable the particular warden is. Quite often they know less than we do. Always ask for citation of the actual legal codes so you can verify their information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
I thought we covered this, but I guess not. I will look into this later when I have more time, but for now here is one of their web pages about State Forests and some links to the codes authorizing management:

http://www.fire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/...ateforests.php
PRC 4645 through 4658 gives CAL Fire (California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection) the authority to manage the Demonstration State Forests. It includes the following:

Quote:
4656. This chapter does not interfere with the reasonable use of state forests for hunting, fishing, recreation and camping, except as otherwise provided by law.
So it would appear there is some hope. They likely have the authority to ban firearms if they so choose, but the question is, have they. The Soquel Demonstration State Forest website does state that firearms are prohibited in that forest, but the rest mention that hunting is permitted.

I have an email in to them asking for more details...

Last edited by MudCamper; 05-10-2011 at 10:36 AM..
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  #251  
Old 05-10-2011, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Information from a warden can be hit or miss, depending on how knowledgeable the particular warden is. Quite often they know less than we do. Always ask for citation of the actual legal codes so you can verify their information.

He replied back with this:
CDF does not have any specific Jackson State Forest rules about shooting. ...you have to abide by other laws covered by the Penal Code and Fish and Game code.

He gave examples of what was already given in previous posts. Next time I will ask for codes.

He did mention Mendocino county code :
Chapter 8.04
Division III

Sec. 8.04.080 - Shooting Prohibited Near Occupied Building.

Except as hereinafter provided for shotguns, no person other than the owner, person in possession of the premises, or person having the express permission of the owner or person in possession of the premises, shall discharge any firearm within five hundred (500) yards of any occupied dwelling house, or any residence, of any other building or barn or outbuilding used in connection with such dwelling house or residence, or of any building in the process of construction.

Sec. 8.04.085 - Shotguns.

No person other than the owner, person in possession of the premises, or person having the express permission of the owner or person in possession of the premises shall discharge any shotgun within one hundred fifty (150) yards of any occupied dwelling house, of any residence, of any other building or barn or outbuilding used in connection with such dwelling house or residence, or of any building in the process of construction.



I did find this Fish and game Code to be interesting for general knowledge:

2009. (a) A person shall not willfully interfere with the
participation of any individual in the lawful activity of shooting,
hunting, fishing, falconry, hunting dog field trials, hunting dog
training, or trapping at the location where that activity is taking
place.

Last edited by ottomatic; 06-07-2011 at 7:16 AM..
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  #252  
Old 05-10-2011, 5:35 PM
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Thanks, ottomatic. Sounds good so far. So given "that which is not prohibited is permitted", it looks like we can carry, and even shoot, in all these Forests sans Soquel. I'm still waiting on more info from CDF. And I'd like to know specifically the citation used to ban firearms in Soquel...

ETA 5/12/11 4:45 PM: I heard back from the Deputy Chief of the Demonstration State Forests. He said he'd get back to me with specifics sometime early next week.

Last edited by MudCamper; 05-12-2011 at 5:49 PM..
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  #253  
Old 05-11-2011, 2:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Thanks, ottomatic. Sounds good so far. So given "that which is not prohibited is permitted", it looks like we can carry, and even shoot, in all these Forests sans Soquel. I'm still waiting on more info from CDF. And I'd like to know specifically the citation used to ban firearms in Soquel...
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  #254  
Old 05-11-2011, 8:14 AM
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Any one ever been to Sequoia's and had any problems going next month hopefully want to make sure im good to go
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  #255  
Old 05-12-2011, 12:03 AM
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What retch-inducing insanity.

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Cornelius Tacitus (55-117 A.D.)
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  #256  
Old 05-16-2011, 4:33 PM
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Will AB 144 be affecting 12027(g) in any way?
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  #257  
Old 05-16-2011, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbagump View Post
Will AB 144 be affecting 12027(g) in any way?
Interesting thought. I don't know. Will have to read the latest revision of the law and see. But I don't think so, because that's concealed, and the bill is only about open carry (I think).

ETA: It looks like it will have no effect on 12027(g) (or whatever it's new reassigned number is). Interestingly, the bill also contains an exemption to itself for hunters going to/from hunting expeditions. I guess we'll all have to get hunting licenses and figure out what we can hunt anywhere at all times of year with a pistol!
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Last edited by MudCamper; 05-16-2011 at 9:34 PM..
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  #258  
Old 05-21-2011, 7:52 PM
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quick question.. what are the rules of "regional parks" the canyon across the street is called a "regional park" so is there any variation between the rules??

-thanks
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  #259  
Old 05-24-2011, 9:35 AM
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Originally Posted by luckystrike View Post
quick question.. what are the rules of "regional parks" the canyon across the street is called a "regional park" so is there any variation between the rules??
Well all state laws apply of course, but that's not what you have to worry about. Regional parks are regulated by the county or city which manages them, and usually forbid firearms. Try looking here for your particular location.
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  #260  
Old 05-25-2011, 2:14 PM
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I spoke on the phone today with a very friendly and helpful gentleman with PG&E Recreation. He informed me that PG&E has no official or published rules or regulations about firearms, and that they generally follow whatever rules are in effect in the neighboring or surrounding Federal or State lands. So, sounds pretty firearms friendly. However, he also stated that some areas may post restrictions, so look for that. Also he stated that there are campground hosts who may or may not know what the actual laws are. (Join the club! )

So keep it low key and friendly (and carry legal information with you if you're paranoid like me) and you should be fine.

I've updated the first post in the thread to read, "no official restrictions, generally the same as neighboring federal lands, state laws apply".
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Last edited by MudCamper; 02-05-2013 at 10:00 AM..
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  #261  
Old 06-01-2011, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
ETA 5/12/11 4:45 PM: I heard back from the Deputy Chief of the Demonstration State Forests. He said he'd get back to me with specifics sometime early next week.
I heard back from the Deputy Chief and he says he hasn't forgotten me. He's waiting on his legal folks. In the mean time, I've been doing some research and have found the following:

State Forests are covered in the Public Resource Code, and of course in the CCR. I found PRC 4656 which states,

Quote:
4656. This chapter does not interfere with the reasonable use of state forests for hunting, fishing, recreation and camping, except as otherwise provided by law.
And in the CCR, Title 14, Div 1.5, Chap 9, s 1413,

Quote:
1413. Weapons.

(a) No person shall discharge any firearm, air or gas weapon, or bow and arrow in the vicinity of camps, residence sites, recreation grounds and areas, and over lakes or other bodies of water adjacent to or within such areas, whereby any person is exposed to injury as a result of such discharge.

(b) Without limiting the foregoing, no person shall discharge any of the above named weapons or any other weapon while within 150 yards (137.20 m) of any designated camping area.
There are also sections 1435 and 1436 which close some areas to hunting, trapping, and "use of firearms". Also section 1438 authorizes the temporary closure of "a particular activity", and section 1439 authorizes temporary closures to entry. So far it's looking like a mix of UOC/LOC is legal in these lands, with hunting an shooting allowed in many areas.

For completeness I'll include a link to the State Forests website here as a reference to look for any posted closures or restrictions.

Notice that in the Soquel State Forest web page it states that firearms are not allowed in the forest. I don't know if this is a mistake, and that they actually mean the use of firearms is not allowed, or if there is some other code that I have not found yet that gives them this broad authority.
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Last edited by MudCamper; 06-30-2011 at 12:37 PM..
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  #262  
Old 06-02-2011, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Well all state laws apply of course, but that's not what you have to worry about. Regional parks are regulated by the county or city which manages them, and usually forbid firearms. Try looking here for your particular location.
hmm Orange didnt mention anything about firearms that I saw, dont really think county/citys can make up laws.
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  #263  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by luckystrike View Post
hmm Orange didnt mention anything about firearms that I saw, dont really think county/citys can make up laws.
While it may be preempted by state law, many counties and cities pass ordinances banning firearms in parks. Maybe they technically don't have the constitutional authority to do so, but they do anyway, and they will cite you if they catch you.

ETA: Just found this in the Carbon Canyon Regional Parks Rules: http://www.ocparks.com/carboncanyon/...Show=parkrules "Possession or use of firearms or weapons is prohibited." Same for Peters Canyon: http://www.ocparks.com/peterscanyon/...Show=parkrules Which park exactly are you referring to?

ETA: And found this is the OC Municipal code Title 2 Division 5 Article 2 Section 2-5-37: "No person shall have any fireworks, firearms, replica firearms, air gun, paint ball gun, BB gun, slingshot or bow or hunting arrow or any weapon in his possession or in his vehicle other than in a closed trunk, storage compartment or other area separated from the passenger section of the vehicle, in any park, beach or recreational area, nor shall any person discharge any firearm, fireworks or weapon or display any replica firearm upon or into any park, beach or recreational area; provided, however, that the Director may designate areas in which such activity is permitted. "

This is just one example for one county. If you plan on possessing firearms on lands not covered in this thread, you need to do your homework.
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Last edited by MudCamper; 06-03-2011 at 11:06 AM..
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  #264  
Old 06-12-2011, 8:01 AM
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Default Camping in N. Ca. - summary of what I think I've learned

First of all, a huge thank you to MudCamper.

My wife, 8yr old son, and I will be tent camping this fall around N.Ca in the following locations: Inyo NF, Stanislaus NF, Sierra NF, Yosemite NP, Bothe-Napa SP, Salt Point SP, Lassen Volcanic NP, Russian Gulch SP, DL Bliss SP, and probably some as-yet undetermined points in between.

I'm going to recap what I think I've learned after reading multiple threads, the CA DOJ web site, the CA state laws, etc. I'm not stopping my research, but after a weekend of doing this, I'm trying to take a break and summarize what I've learned. If I get anything wrong, please correct me!

I may bring with me one or more of the following: my Glock G-29SF (ten round mag), my HK45 (ten round mag), my Glock G-36 (six round mag), or a CA-legal Mossberg 500 which I don’t own yet (suggestions on a CA-legal gun welcome).

Here’s what I think I’ve learned as the laws apply to a non-resident with no California CWP, and I couldn't help being tongue-in-check below, so don't take all of this literally:

(1) Get a non-resident hunting license and read up on where it is legal to hunt rabbits.
(2) Travel with the Pelican Case with lock and my Gun Vault, both stored out of reach of the driver in the rear of the SUV with the mags for the pistol(s) in a zipped and secured bag in the front of the vehicle, and always keep the handguns unloaded and locked in the case or gun vault while traveling. The shotgun does not have to be locked unless I happen to drive through a K-12 school zone or I’m in a SP, but likely safer just to keep it locked up unless we’re in a NP or NF. I believe that I can keep shells in the tube of the shotgun while stored based on People v Clark, but never leave a shell in the chamber. Ditto no round in the chamber on the handgun(s) while stored.
(3) Don’t get the guns out or even talk about them in any SP, or within 1000 ft of any K-12 school. Note that in specially designated hunting areas of a SP, it may be possible, check the regs and get it in writing.
(4) In NP or NF, when in my campsite, I can LOC but can’t discharge the weapon within 150 yds of another campsite and all CA laws must be followed (i.e., make sure campsite is not w/in 1000 ft of K-12 school, etc.). Additionally, I’m nervous about assuming the castle doctrine applies since CA penal code 198.5 says the intruder “unlawfully and forcibly enters”, which I have a hard time feeling I could prove in a tent campsite unless I wait until someone comes into my family’s tent and it gets even weirder if we are using the jungle hammocks that night, and even with forced entry to tent, I might have issues if I’m within 150 yds of any residence, building, or other campsite due to weapons discharge restriction. Any thoughts or precedent here?
(5) In NP or NF and not in a wilderness area, while hiking when rabbit hunting, I can LCC. If I’m not rabbit hunting, then I can UOC if I so choose.
(6) In a wilderness area in a NF, check with ranger and get it in writing if possible.
(7) In a wilderness area in a NP, LOC in campsite as long as all CA laws are being followed.
(8) Print copies of applicable docs that MudCamper has thoughtfully linked here, as well as regs for any specially designated areas in SP.
(9) In a NP, don’t carry a gun into any public facility including a restroom, for example, in Lassen they’ve made this very clear: http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
(10) It is legal to have a pointy stick in the campsite expressly for cooking purposes within 11 feet of a non-portable cooking device such as a fire ring, otherwise, check with the local laws and ranger.

I hope I haven’t screwed up any of the above, as all of the various requirements leave my head spinning. NP are particularly frustrating, with rules like the prohibition from discharging pepper spray in Yosemite - how am I going to make pepper steak now! http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

Apologies for the long post, I’m just trying to get my head wrapped around what I can and can’t do and when and where I can and can’t do it.

Thanks again to MudCamper!

Last edited by PanamaJack; 06-12-2011 at 4:08 PM..
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  #265  
Old 06-12-2011, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanamaJack View Post
(1) Get a non-resident hunting license and read up on where it is legal to hunt rabbits.
(2) Travel with the Pelican Case with lock and my Gun Vault, both stored out of reach of the driver in the rear of the SUV with the mags for the pistol(s) in a zipped and secured bag in the front of the vehicle, and always keep the handguns unloaded and locked in the case or gun vault while traveling. The shotgun does not have to be locked unless I happen to drive through a K-12 school zone or I’m in a SP, but likely safer just to keep it locked up unless we’re in a NP or NF. I believe that I can keep shells in the tube of the shotgun while stored based on People v Clark, but never leave a shell in the chamber. Ditto no round in the chamber on the handgun(s) while stored.
(3) Don’t get the guns out or even talk about them in any SP, or within 1000 ft of any K-12 school. Note that in specially designated hunting areas of a SP, it may be possible, check the regs and get it in writing.
(4) In NP or NF, when in my campsite, I can LOC but can’t discharge the weapon within 150 yds of another campsite and all CA laws must be followed (i.e., make sure campsite is not w/in 1000 ft of K-12 school, etc.). Additionally, I’m nervous about assuming the castle doctrine applies since CA penal code 198.5 says the intruder “unlawfully and forcibly enters”, which I have a hard time feeling I could prove in a tent campsite unless I wait until someone comes into my family’s tent and it gets even weirder if we are using the jungle hammocks that night, and even with forced entry to tent, I might have issues if I’m within 150 yds of any residence, building, or other campsite due to weapons discharge restriction. Any thoughts or precedent here?
(5) In NP or NF and not in a wilderness area, while hiking when rabbit hunting, I can LCC. If I’m not rabbit hunting, then I can UOC if I so choose.
(6) In a wilderness area in a NF, check with ranger and get it in writing if possible.
(7) In a wilderness area in a NP, LOC in campsite as long as all CA laws are being followed.
(8) Print copies of applicable docs that MudCamper has thoughtfully linked here, as well as regs for any specially designated areas in SP.
(9) In a NP, don’t carry a gun into any public facility including a restroom, for example, in Lassen they’ve made this very clear: http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
(10) It is legal to have a pointy stick in the campsite expressly for cooking purposes within 11 feet of a non-portable cooking device such as a fire ring, otherwise, check with the local laws and ranger.
1) I would advise against it. It will open you up to all kinds of Fish and Game entanglements, more restrictions (like no lead ammo in many places) and basically surrender your 4th Amendment rights.

2) Not exactly. If your handguns are in a locked case, they can be anywhere in the vehicle. There are no restrictions on mags or ammo other than no ammo in a firearm. Loaded mags in the cases with the guns is fine.

3) Basically correct.

4) No. NF and NP are completely different. Go read the first post in this thread again.

5) No. No loaded firearms anywhere in NP except your campsite. LOC or UOC in NF. Don't use a hunting excuse as it will worsen things for you. Go back and read the first post and perhaps the 3rd.

6) UOC legal in all NF wilderness. LOC probably legal in all also.

7) No. Anywhere in NP UOC only accept campsite where LOC OK. Of course no firearms at all in federal facilities.

8) Yes but read them again.

9) Yes.

10) Pointy stick. That's a new one. Never heard of any regs on pointy sticks. But if you try and use a hunting excuse for personal defense, I'll bet you'll find out the hard way that there is one.
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Old 06-12-2011, 5:55 PM
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First, thanks for your time and patience...I'm not sure how you find both to do this. Forgive my persistence as well, I'm determined to bring a firearm with me when camping, and I don't want to have to hire a lawyer in mid-holiday.

OK, so point-by-point:

1) getting a hunting license may allow me to LCC in NF base on *2 from first post, but it opens up a can of worms as the minute the license comes out the F&G officer can cavity search me. Took this recommendation off a post from thehighroad http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-537794.html. Also, my apologies, but I am trying to find ways to carry loaded as I do in my home state as much as possible, and am obviously forcing the issue. I've got no practice at unloaded carry, and not a lot of time to go to the range to practice between now and our departure date.
2) appreciate the clarification
3) one out of 9 ain't bad I guess
4) here I should have been more clear - in my campsite, which is my temp. residence, I can LOC - regardless of NP or NF - and as long as I'm not w/in school zone, etc. As to discharging a firearm - never in the NPs I list in my post, and never if there is a structure or other camp w/in 150 yds, which when camping with the family is quite likely. I still would like to know if the castle doctrine applies to the campsite, and if there is any precedent - or if I need to be inside my tent and have someone "unlawfully and forcibly enter" to actually bring self-defense into play???
5) I can LOC in NP in my campsite, per *1 on first post, right? - this isn't really a flat out "no" is it?
6) I based my "check with ranger" on the thread on the Emigrants wilderness here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/a.../t-193633.html where I saw a post saying firearms were prohibited in Emigrants, so figured I'd better assume the rules could be different anywhere in the state and best to check for every wilderness area.
7) OK, 1/2 right here, as what I say is a subset - LOC in campsite. I need to have an attitude adjustment on UOC, as a non-CA resident I'm having trouble getting it into my thick skull that an unloaded gun might actually be useful...if you can avoid a surprise, at least you can have access to loaded firearm. As a non-resident, I'm very leery of being in any grey area. That's why I'm trying to figure out when the castle doctrine or something similar applies, when my right to self defense outweighs CA law if ever - or better said, if there is a CA law that specifies when I can employ lethal self-defense in any situation regardless of where I happen to be standing, sitting, or reclining...by Yosemite's rules which I linked to, I could have every weapon in the book from pepper spray up to a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs, and I would have to fight the bear off with my Swiss Army knife as it ate my kid. Yes, this is hyperbole, but the park rules on the web site don't leave any room for mis-interpretation or else I'm mis-reading them.

OK, so that's about 3.5 out of 9. Not good.

Again, thanks for your help.

Last edited by PanamaJack; 06-12-2011 at 6:25 PM..
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Old 06-12-2011, 6:30 PM
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[unsolicited ad on]And at the risk of sounding like an *****, I figured best to put money where mouth is. I do appreciate the info here, everyone's time and effort in helping me through the maze, so I just kicked in as a contributor...and I'd encourage everyone else who needs the info and the expertise on this forum to recognize the value of the resource and to do so as well! If I can't vote to change the laws as a non-resident, at least I can help feed the machine that's fighting them![unsolicited ad off]
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanamaJack View Post
OK, so that's about 3.5 out of 9. Not good.
Well, if you haven't been swimming in the muck that is California gun law it certainly is hard to decipher at first.

1) I understand you are trying to find a legal path to LCC. If you plan to carry a semi-auto handgun know that UOC (which you can do just about everywhere in both NP and NF) allows you to carry loaded mags with you. It's obviously not as good as LOC or LCC but it's much less legally entangling.

4) Correct LOC is legal in your campsite in both NP and NF. As to what exactly is your campsite, and how far away from your tent is included, that's not defined. As to legal use of lethal force, in CA you must have "imminent fear of great bodily injury or death".

5) Correct. LOC in your campsite in NP is legal.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:39 AM
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Thanks again, I'm in the process of reading CA PC 197 now. I am comforted by the language "...or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence." At least that clearly establishes the tent wall as a perimeter.

I am also re-reading CA PC 12020 - 12040 and now thinking about it as if I were going to UOC, and what situations would allow me to get a round in the chamber before a problem occurred while still being within the letter of the law. I want to have a game plan before I hit a situation, and there really aren't that many situations to think out in advance since my entire day can be summed up in six words: camping, cooking, hiking, fishing, relaxing, sleeping. I think it is extremely unlikely that I will ever have to use any of this planning, but if I happen to hit that one-in-a-million event, at least now I'll be able to act confidently believing that I am within the letter of the law.

LOL, I'm also having to re-think my entire wardrobe, as everything I have is made for IWB LCC, and most of my shirts are long enough to cover my OWB holsters as well. I assume that an OWB holster that is completely covered by my untucked shirt is either definitely considered concealed or in a grey area (that place I don't want to be)...so I need to pack only shirts that are short or that can actually be tucked into my pants! It is going to feel really, really, really strange trying to make sure my sidearm is always visible, rather than the opposite!
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:20 PM
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I think this is at least one example from the law on when I can go from UOC to loaded:
------
12031.(j)(1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.
-------

If we have the phone numbers of all of the district ranger offices and park ranger offices handy in the phone, and if I see something that I believe presents an "immediate, grave danger", my wife pulls her iPhone (LOL), and I ready the G-29SF. Again, likely never need to do this, but if we have advance notice of a threat, and are making the effort to contact local LEO, then it seems like we are in the best position for whatever comes next.
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Old 06-14-2011, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanamaJack View Post
LOL, I'm also having to re-think my entire wardrobe, as everything I have is made for IWB LCC, and most of my shirts are long enough to cover my OWB holsters as well.
Something I think we haven't mentioned is that LCC is also legal in one's campsite in the NF and NP. 12025 (concealed) does not apply in one's residence. While 12025 does not specifically include the "temporary residence or campsite" language like 12031 does, one's campsite is still legally one's residence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanamaJack View Post
I think this is at least one example from the law on when I can go from UOC to loaded: 12031.(j)(1)
Yes. This is the exception that allows you to load in an emergency.
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Old 06-14-2011, 9:12 AM
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Thanks again for all of your input!
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:54 AM
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here is to clear up PC 12027 (g) if anyone is interested, my conversation through email:

Hi there sir,

May I please ask you in reference California P.C 12027 (g) states that: (I would like to know since I'm planning a camping/ fishing trip with my family, I would like to be prepared and be law abiding).

Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or

other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while

engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms

unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing

expedition.

Does this mean that, since I am a licensed fisherman in California may I legally carry a concealed firearm, for example

while I'm fishing in Convict Lake? Or Lake George? Can you please clarify this to me please.

Sincerely,

This is an unusual request. I can interpret the section a couple of ways. Iím going to ask our Town Attorney for an opinion which Iíll send to you.



I understand you may have asked the same question of different people here at the Police Department. Disregard any response youíve received, and you should rely on one with a legal opinion.



Dan Watson

Chief of Police

Mr.,



I have received an opinion from our Town Attorney. Iíve also spoken to the District Supervisor for the Inyo National Forest, US Forest Service because there are federal firearms regulations that also apply in USFS area.



Penal Code 12027(g) provides an exemption for licensed fishermen and hunters from 12025 PC, the prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon, while hunting or fishing or going to or from hunting or fishing, although the weapon must be unloaded when not actually hunting or fishing. That means that you can carry it concealed while actively engaged in fishing, but not when you are not fishing.



There are no federal firearms regulations prohibiting carrying a concealed weapon in the forest. However, it is illegal to discharge a firearm in the forest with 250 feet of any developed location. That would include roadways, campgrounds, buildings, etc.



So, the short answer is that you can carry a concealed firearm while fishing at Convict Lake or Lake George. However, I donít recommend doing so simply because both those lakes, and all the lakes that are easily accessible in the area. Lake George is within the Town limits of Mammoth Lakes as are Lake Mary, Lake Mamie, and Horseshoe Lake. Convict Lake is not in the Town limits and is policed by the Mono County Sheriffís Department. I have copied Sheriff Rick Scholl so that he will be aware of your inquiry and my response.



If you are concerned about safety because of bears in the area, be advised that black bears are not a threat to your safety. If you leave a stringer of fish unprotected, a bear make take advantage of that, but they do not attack people. And, a concealable weapon is an inadequate weapon to use on a bear.



I hope this answers your questions.



Dan Watson

Chief of Police

Mammoth Lakes Police Department
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
I hope this answers your questions.

Dan Watson

Chief of Police

Mammoth Lakes Police Department
Thank you for posting this. I'm going to Yosemite NP, south of the valley, in the next few weeks and I'll have my fish&game license so I will be printing this out.

So basically, I'm completely in the law to carry concealed *unloaded* to and from hunting/fishing grounds (i.e. the hike to/from the lakes) but as soon as I get to a lake and start fishing I can load up and stay concealed? Also, because of what Mudcamper just posted, I can also load up in my camp ground and stay concealed.

Quote:
And, a concealable weapon is an inadequate weapon to use on a bear.
Looks like Mr. Sheriff has never fired a full-house 10mm round before =)
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Old 06-14-2011, 12:01 PM
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Chief Watson is correct except for one minor error:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drider View Post
However, it is illegal to discharge a firearm in the forest with 250 feet of any developed location. That would include roadways, campgrounds, buildings, etc.
The actual distance is 150 yards and roadways don't trigger that restriction. From 39 CFR 261.10:

Quote:
The following are prohibited:

{...}

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
You can stand 5 feet from a road and discharge in the other direction (assuming that discharge is otherwise not prohibited).
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Old 06-14-2011, 1:33 PM
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Interesting that this attorney seems to confuse loaded with concealed:

Quote:
Penal Code 12027(g) provides an exemption for licensed fishermen and hunters from 12025 PC, the prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon, while hunting or fishing or going to or from hunting or fishing, although the weapon must be unloaded when not actually hunting or fishing. That means that you can carry it concealed while actively engaged in fishing, but not when you are not fishing.
He gets it right in the first sentence, but wrong in the second. You can in fact carry it concealed when not fishing. It just has to be unloaded.

And a related side note. Some may disagree that you may carry loaded while fishing, because the "Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto" language may trigger the "prohibited area" language in 12031, making loading illegal near water.

And drider, while it may be useful to have an opinion letter, it doesn't actually clear anything up. In this particular case, we agree with the opinion. But fften times you will get an opinion from your local LE or DA that we (calguns) disagree with.
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Old 06-19-2011, 1:00 PM
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So looks like plans have been changed and I'm not going camping in Yosemite NP but instead a bit south to Lillian Lake in Ansel Adams Wilderness within the Inyo National Forest, ~30mi SW of Mono Lake. I looked at their prohibited acts page and with respect to firearms it only says "Discharging a firearm, except for emergencies and the taking of game as permitted by State law". I'm going to safely assume that possession of a firearm in this wilderness is therefore *not* prohibited and that the normal carry restrictions and exemptions to it with a Fish&Game license apply. That is Concealed Unloaded Carry to/from fishing, Concealed Loaded Carry while actively hunting/fishing and Loaded Open Carry in campground.

Also, I'm not sure I can directly apply the opinion letter from Chief Watson because it's not quite clear what district Lillian Lake is in; this wilderness is broken into numerous districts, unfortunately I can't quite tell which district Lillian Lake lies in, its either the Mono Lake or Mammoth District.

Also, I'd like to get a bit more clarification on the "taking of game as permitted by State law". Who can/should I contact to see what game I can legally hunt and therefore discharge my firearm without violating any state or federal laws?

Thanks all

Last edited by SiegeX; 06-19-2011 at 1:13 PM..
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Old 06-19-2011, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
(9) In a NP, don’t carry a gun into any public facility including a restroom, for example, in Lassen they’ve made this very clear: http://www.nps.gov/lavo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
What the link makes clear is that posting of the restriction is required:
Quote:
Federal law prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.
No sign, then carry is ok.........and this includes most bathrooms not inside another building.
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Old 06-19-2011, 1:37 PM
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Alright I've tried to understand the thread. Thank you MudCamper for putting this together. I have a question specific to residents of other states. I've read elsewhere that even in places where UOC is legal, non-residents should avoid it as other charges could get upgraded to a felony. It sounds like PanamaJack was trying to use hunting as a way to get around that. I don't hunt though and don't always fish.

As a backpacker from another state making an extended tour of CA and hiking between campsites within areas such as Stanislaus, Lassen, Mendocino, King Range (BLM/National Conservation Area) etc and other WAs, NFs and BLM lands is UOC ill advised? Or are the rules the same for everyone?

It sounds like LOC in my campsite is OK regardless, it's just that getting to that campsite might be complicated by UOC being a "bad idea".
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Old 06-19-2011, 1:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
So looks like plans have been changed and I'm not going camping in Yosemite NP but instead a bit south to Lillian Lake in Ansel Adams Wilderness within the Inyo National Forest, ~30mi SW of Mono Lake. I looked at their prohibited acts page and with respect to firearms it only says "Discharging a firearm, except for emergencies and the taking of game as permitted by State law". I'm going to safely assume that possession of a firearm in this wilderness is therefore *not* prohibited and that the normal carry restrictions and exemptions to it with a Fish&Game license apply. That is Concealed Unloaded Carry to/from fishing, Concealed Loaded Carry while actively hunting/fishing and Loaded Open Carry in campground.

Also, I'm not sure I can directly apply the opinion letter from Chief Watson because it's not quite clear what district Lillian Lake is in; this wilderness is broken into numerous districts, unfortunately I can't quite tell which district Lillian Lake lies in, its either the Mono Lake or Mammoth District.

Also, I'd like to get a bit more clarification on the "taking of game as permitted by State law". Who can/should I contact to see what game I can legally hunt and therefore discharge my firearm without violating any state or federal laws?

Thanks all
I just called the Mammoth Lakes ranger station asking about the policies on the carrying and discharging of a firearm in the Ansel Adams Wilderness. The lady on the phone was quite pleasant but it was pretty apparent she really didn't know the law enough to give out advice as she believed you must always carry unloaded and can never discharge. When I told her the wilderness website had a 'taking of game' exemption she gave me the number to the Fish & Game office in Bishop, CA so I can get better advice on what game (if any) I'm allowed to hunt with a firearm in the Ansel Adams Wilderness in the early to mid July timeframe.
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