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  #201  
Old 08-22-2010, 5:47 PM
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So are State Recreation Areas the same as State Parks since they are run by State Parks Employees???? What's the difference between a S.P. and a S.R.A.????
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  #202  
Old 08-23-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17+1 View Post
Last question:

What constitutes open carry of magazines? My belt holster may be 'iffy'...

I have a dual mag belt holster for the magazines but there is a velcrow flip top that causes the magazine to be completely covered. Pull up on the cover and the baseplates and half an inch or so of mag body is visible, but not so when it is closed.

I was thinking it may be wise to safety pin the top open so there is no question...
IMO you do not need to go to these extremes. The only reason anyone can even argue that a concealed magazine is a concealed handgun is with the very tenuous People v Hale decision. It is highly unlikely that this will even come up in rural areas. And having them in belt holsters that completely cover them with a flap does not conceal them just like a handgun in a full flap holster is not concealed per 12025(f). (At least until/if AB1934 passes, when 12025(f) will be deleted from the PC.)

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Originally Posted by IrishPirate View Post
So are State Recreation Areas the same as State Parks since they are run by State Parks Employees???? What's the difference between a S.P. and a S.R.A.????
State Recreation Areas are managed by the same agency that manages the Parks, the Department of Parks and Recreation. The same rules apply to both. However, per 14 CCR § 4501, hunting does seem to be allowed in a few specific Recreation Areas, but then there are new codes (CPRC 5003.1) that override the older codes. I'd call these area administrators and ask before going.

ETA: Looks like the direct link to 14 CCR § 4501 doesn't work, so if you want to read which areas are mentioned, you'll have to go here, and browse your way through to Title 14, Division 3, Chapter 5.

Last edited by MudCamper; 08-23-2010 at 10:14 AM..
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  #203  
Old 08-24-2010, 5:04 PM
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So trip was good, saw a ton of cool stuff!

I was approached by a Park Ranger requesting to check the pistol:

Me: Hello

Ranger: Hello, is your pistol unloaded?

Me: Yes, you may E-check. (I turn away from him)

Ranger: Ok, (to my wife) please step over there (gesturing for her to move a few yards to his weak side). Place your hands on your head and interlock your fingers please(demonstrates).

Me: Ok.

Ranger: (unholsters pistol and inspects chamber) Good! That's what I like to see! (reholsters pistol) Thank you.

Me: You're welcome.

Then I shook his hand, lol.

He also told me that of the 4 people he has checked, I was the only one carrying UOC. The 3 others had their guns confiscated and were written up.
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  #204  
Old 08-24-2010, 8:49 PM
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Thanks for all the research, MudCamper! This information is very helpful.
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  #205  
Old 08-26-2010, 1:14 AM
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I'm having a hard time distinguishing where I can and can not carry. I'm going to Yosemite this weekend, and we are car camping at Tuolumne Meadows Group Campgrounds at Yosemite National Park. From what I've been reading, there are certain places where I can and can not carry here. I asked a friend of mine who frequents this area, but he could not give me a straight area. We will be hiking away from camp for two of the three days up there, and I'm not sure where. Can someone help? I'd like to bring some sort of print out with me to the park in case we are stopped, but this thread has too many things I'd couldnt begin to understand... =)


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Last edited by bug_eyedmonster; 08-26-2010 at 5:12 PM..
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  #206  
Old 08-26-2010, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bug_eyedmonster View Post
I'm having a hard time distinguishing where I can and can not carry. I'm going to Yosemite this weekend, and we are car camping at Tuolumne Meadows Group Campgrounds at Yosemite National Park. From what I've been reading, there are certain places where I can and can not carry here. I asked a friend of mine who frequents this area, but he could not give me a straight area. We will be hiking away from camp for two of the three days up there, and I'm not sure where. Can someone help? I'd like to bring some sort of print out with me to the park in case we are stopped, but this thread has too many things I'd couldnt begin to understand... =)


Jerry
any info would help, I called my contact at DOJ, and he was also somewhat unclear about all of this. From what he said, at the camp site, I can carry concealed and loaded. When hiking or on public trails, I can open carry, as long as the gun is unloaded.

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  #207  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:15 AM
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In short: in the national parks (like Yosemite) you can UOC everywhere except in federal buildings that have posted "no firearms" signs and school zones that apparently present in some parks. LOC is a different story - it is like a minefield. I would suggest to read this thread before you decide to LOC. But UOC is fine. Just make sure you magazines are visible too. Concealed magazine can be seen same way as concealed carry.
BTW, I'm not a lawyer so take my advise as such and decide to OC or not for yourself
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  #208  
Old 08-27-2010, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by vladbutsky View Post
In short: in the national parks (like Yosemite) you can UOC everywhere except in federal buildings that have posted "no firearms" signs and school zones that apparently present in some parks. LOC is a different story - it is like a minefield. I would suggest to read this thread before you decide to LOC. But UOC is fine. Just make sure you magazines are visible too. Concealed magazine can be seen same way as concealed carry.
BTW, I'm not a lawyer so take my advise as such and decide to OC or not for yourself
DO NOT LOC IN THE NATIONAL PARKS!!!!

Buildings are clearly marked...although the crappers are not, so wizz at your own risk. lol

Quote:
any info would help, I called my contact at DOJ, and he was also somewhat unclear about all of this. From what he said, at the camp site, I can carry concealed and loaded. When hiking or on public trails, I can open carry, as long as the gun is unloaded.

Jerry
You will be e-checked if you encounter a NP Ranger, as I was. If you are carrying hot, your gun will be confiscated.

Parks are an area where discharge is prohibited, so that means loading is prohibited as well. Rangers tend to be friendly and know the laws, you will be ok if you're carrying UOC. I'd recommend having friends/significant others there as well to witness the e-check and observe the contact with the Ranger.
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  #209  
Old 09-07-2010, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bug_eyedmonster View Post
any info would help, I called my contact at DOJ, and he was also somewhat unclear about all of this. From what he said, at the camp site, I can carry concealed and loaded. When hiking or on public trails, I can open carry, as long as the gun is unloaded.
Sound like you got good information from them. That is correct.
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  #210  
Old 09-07-2010, 2:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17+1 View Post
DO NOT LOC IN THE NATIONAL PARKS!!!!


You will be e-checked if you encounter a NP Ranger, as I was. If you are carrying hot, your gun will be confiscated.

Parks are an area where discharge is prohibited, so that means loading is prohibited as well. Rangers tend to be friendly and know the laws, you will be ok if you're carrying UOC. I'd recommend having friends/significant others there as well to witness the e-check and observe the contact with the Ranger.
But this is all because 12031 prohibits loading in "prohibited areas" which we all know by now is defined as anywhere you are prohibited from shooting. HOWEVER, 12031 also is self-exempting in one's "temporary residence or campsite" so you are free to load there.

17+1, are you saying that the rangers you have encountered are not aware of this exception? If not we need to educate them.
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  #211  
Old 09-08-2010, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
But this is all because 12031 prohibits loading in "prohibited areas" which we all know by now is defined as anywhere you are prohibited from shooting. HOWEVER, 12031 also is self-exempting in one's "temporary residence or campsite" so you are free to load there.

17+1, are you saying that the rangers you have encountered are not aware of this exception? If not we need to educate them.
They may be aware, but I did not encounter one at a campsite or 'temporary residence'.

I was at a trail-head near a parking lot...

I should have asked where the people that got their weapons confiscated were when they got dinged...sorry guys.
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  #212  
Old 09-09-2010, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
12031 prohibits loading in "prohibited areas" which we all know by now is defined as anywhere you are prohibited from shooting.
Prohibited from shooting in Wilderness areas unless in danger or legally hunting... so can I LOC when backpacking in wilderness areas?

It'd be a bad day for someone to try to confiscate a firearm in the backwoods.
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  #213  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cahermit View Post
Prohibited from shooting in Wilderness areas unless in danger or legally hunting... so can I LOC when backpacking in wilderness areas?

It'd be a bad day for someone to try to confiscate a firearm in the backwoods.
This is covered in the first few posts in the thread. Wilderness areas in NPs are, like the entire NP, prohibited areas, so only UOC. Wilderness areas in the NF may have shooting restrictions but usually not, so UOC or LOC accordingly. Check your local ranger station for local restrictions.
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  #214  
Old 09-22-2010, 4:40 PM
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This thread depresses me. The rule should be, "You're a legal resident of the United States? Then by all means, openly carry, loaded or unloaded, wherever you want to except for those places protected by armed guards and metal detectors."

Next time I'm visiting California's back country, I'll be sure to carry a 20lb crib sheet of what I can and cannot do depending on the phase of the moon and the mood of the legislature.
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  #215  
Old 09-22-2010, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
Next time I'm visiting California's back country, I'll be sure to carry a 20lb crib sheet of what I can and cannot do depending on the phase of the moon and the mood of the legislature.
Well, it can be kept pretty simple: In the National Parks, UOC. In the National Forests and BLM, UOC, unless you are hiking out in the proverbial sticks, then LOC.
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  #216  
Old 10-07-2010, 1:55 PM
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I just stumbled over this link to BLM El Centro Field Office.
It states: All federal, state, and county regulations apply to public lands.
Is the part about County regs BS or somehow discretionary by BLM unit or ?
I can't find a ref in Title 43 CFR to support it
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  #217  
Old 10-07-2010, 2:31 PM
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anyone know if you can LOC or UOC in clevleand national forest??
if your familiar with the rules/regs there please let me know
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  #218  
Old 10-17-2010, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
PC 12025 makes concealing illegal. Unconcealed handguns are legal. The belt holster is just one clarification that it is not concealed. Any other method of carry that does not conceal is also legal. While it is not specifically spelled out, it is legal.
So a GunMate Guide Chest Holster would also qualify as legit in your view?
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  #219  
Old 10-21-2010, 10:41 PM
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can I go shooting up in saddleback mountains (serious)
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  #220  
Old 10-22-2010, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckystrike View Post
anyone know if you can LOC or UOC in clevleand national forest??
if your familiar with the rules/regs there please let me know
Google it and go to their web-page. It will tell you what's allowed.
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  #221  
Old 10-29-2010, 5:12 PM
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Hello all. Does this look like a legal place to go target shooting? Click on the arrows in the top middle to see more of the map. It is in the National Forest as we pass two NF signs getting there. We've been there a couple of times and by the looks of all the trash so has other people. Just curious thanks.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...05472&t=h&z=18
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  #222  
Old 12-14-2010, 7:24 PM
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Thank you for this thread. It is very helpful.

I'm taking a 4 day trip through some remote parts of Death Valley National Park. i feel comfortable that I understand I will be able to UOC if I choose both in my vehicle and while deeper in the mountains on foot. The question I have is a combination of NF regulation (no discharge within 150 yrds of a building) and the right to LOC while in temporary residence or campsite.

There are many old cabins in DVNP and I intend to stay in some. All have vehicle access and are thus adjacent to roads. I would like to LOC while utilizing these cabins for shelter overnight. Does anyone see any problems with this?

On a side, transporting a pistol locked and unloaded over 4 days shouldnt be a problem in the NP, or is my destination too vague?

Thanks!
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  #223  
Old 12-14-2010, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpenn View Post
Thank you for this thread. It is very helpful.

I'm taking a 4 day trip through some remote parts of Death Valley National Park. i feel comfortable that I understand I will be able to UOC if I choose both in my vehicle and while deeper in the mountains on foot. The question I have is a combination of NF regulation (no discharge within 150 yrds of a building) and the right to LOC while in temporary residence or campsite.

There are many old cabins in DVNP and I intend to stay in some. All have vehicle access and are thus adjacent to roads. I would like to LOC while utilizing these cabins for shelter overnight. Does anyone see any problems with this?

On a side, transporting a pistol locked and unloaded over 4 days shouldnt be a problem in the NP, or is my destination too vague?

Thanks!
I love Death Valley very much. If your entering Death Valley from the west (Wingate road) and through Goler Canyon then I know the cabins you speak of. I see no problems with what you posted. In July I traversed the Mojave Desert UOC'ing the whole time. No problems, but I did not encounter any LEOs either. If UOC'ing keep a copy of the laws with you so you can explain yourself if you need to.
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  #224  
Old 02-21-2011, 1:46 PM
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I got this notice as I confirmed my trip to Joshua Tree NP:

Alerts and Important Information
Equestrian sites are for campers with horses ONLY. There are NO horse corrals. Sites have shared hitching posts, fire pits and picnic tables.
You will be held to the type of equipment your reservation is for. Campgrounds will be unable to accomodate equipment changes. Late Arrivals: If you will be arriving after noon the FOLLOWING DAY call 760-367-3001. IF YOU DO NOT CALL, CHECK-IN OR VISIBLY OCCUPY YOUR SITE BY NOON THE FOLLOWING DAY,YOU WILL FORFEIT YOUR SITE. Pets must be leashed. Pets are not allowed on trails and are restricted to developed areas only. Bring your own firewood. No gathering of wood allowed. No hook-ups. No firearms or fireworks. Quiet hours 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. Generators allowed 7 a.m. - 9 a.m., 12 p.m. - 2 p.m., and 5 p.m. - 7 p.m. Two vehicles (trailers are considered a vehicle) and 6 people maximum per site. Check in at Ranger Station, hours 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. except Friday, 12 p.m. - 8 p.m. Organized or special events may require permits. There is no access into the main portion of the park from the campground, except by hiking trails. Entry into the main portion of the park at other entry points requires an entrance fee separate from the campground fee. $15 for a 7 day period per private family vehicle. Commercial users are required to reserve group site. Are you a commerical user? If so, you are required to obtain an incidental business permit. Please call 760-367-5545. Groups Larger than 18 people (3 sites), please call 760-367-5549 for more information. If you reserve a disabled site and arrive at the park and are not disabled, you may forfeit your site, and/or be cited.

bolded...is this right? I guess I should contact them personally to be extra sure...
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  #225  
Old 02-21-2011, 9:14 PM
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so many laws......... just bring a lawyer everywhere you take your gun to avoid confusion.... LOL
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  #226  
Old 02-27-2011, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by el scorcho View Post
bolded...is this right? I guess I should contact them personally to be extra sure...
See this post on the previous page

Quote:
They do not have the authority to ban firearms. Do you know what local ranger district this is? I would like to call them. There is still a code (36 CFR 261.57) that allows them to restrict possession in Wilderness Areas, but given Heller I doubt this would be legal. I've also never heard of any Forest actually ordering this. They do sometimes prohibit shooting, which they do have the authority per another code (36 CFR 261.58) to do. Is this in a Wilderness Area?
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  #227  
Old 02-27-2011, 5:35 PM
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Kudos to MudCamper for taking the time to make some sense out of this web of laws.

So I'm planning to do some back country hiking in Yosemite for 3-4 days this summer and I'd like to have a sidearm with me so I did my due diligence and read this thread front to back.

The front page has a very good list as to how to legally carry a sidearm in a National Park like Yosemite where shooting is prohibited. To summarize:
  1. Unloaded Open Carry is legal except in federal facilities (buildings with federal employees and no-firearms signs posted)
  2. Loaded Open Carry is legal in one's campsite.
  3. Unlocked/operable firearms are not allowed within 1000 feet of a K-12 school.

However, I would like a bit more clarification on how a fishing license in Yosemite changes things (since hunting licenses aren't issued there.) My understanding is that the above three points apply along with the following addition:
  • With Fishing License, Unloaded Concealed Carry is legal while traveling to and from the fishing site except in federal facilities (buildings with federal employees and no-firearms signs posted)

Now for my questions:
  1. Does a fishing license allow you to loaded concealed carry in your campsite, or is it still loaded open carry?
  2. Can you loaded conceal carry while actively fishing assuming no other distance prohibitions apply?
  3. Can you unloaded conceal carry with the sidearm locked and sealed everywhere you could open carry?
  4. Do the federal buildings allow any provisions for unloaded, locked and sealed firearms?
  5. Its been just over a year since HR-267 has been enacted, does anybody have any experience or stories from those who have attempted to carry in Yosemite?

Thanks for your time

Last edited by SiegeX; 02-27-2011 at 5:40 PM..
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  #228  
Old 02-27-2011, 7:15 PM
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I got this notice as I confirmed my trip to Joshua Tree NP:

Alerts and Important Information
No firearms or fireworks.

bolded...is this right? I guess I should contact them personally to be extra sure...
I was just there, got snowed out. The welcome rag quite clearly states that anyone who can legally carry a gun in CA, may carry it in the Park. You're just not allowed to use it...

And they absolutely proscribe BB guns, slingshots, bows/arrows, etc.

http://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/things2know.htm
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  #229  
Old 03-03-2011, 8:26 PM
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under "*2"..
is a hiking trail considered a road?
asking for the reason of loaded open carry while hiking (bears, cats).
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  #230  
Old 03-07-2011, 10:25 AM
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  #231  
Old 03-07-2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicdude View Post
under "*2"..
is a hiking trail considered a road?
asking for the reason of loaded open carry while hiking (bears, cats).
A hiking trail is a trail by definition, not a road.

However, a road does not have to be paved or maintained to still be considered a road. A gated off dirt fire road overgrown with weeds and saplings would still be a road in the eyes of the law.

Just get a good set of local maps for the area you're in and if you have any question about what you're hiking on take a conservative approach and unload.
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  #232  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:47 PM
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I have read this post and it has spanned quite a bit of time. I have a few questions . It sounds like this post is dealing primarily with someone wanting to carry a hand gun in NF/NP/SP or BLM. Yes or No?

My second question is if I want to go back packing and take a rifle with me ( example Keltec rifle which collapses in half/ or a OLL upper / lower dissembled to fit in pack) would carrying the rifle in pack be considered concealed and or legal to do?

Does the Original post only apply to handguns?
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  #233  
Old 03-15-2011, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rsandovaljr View Post
I have read this post and it has spanned quite a bit of time. I have a few questions . It sounds like this post is dealing primarily with someone wanting to carry a hand gun in NF/NP/SP or BLM. Yes or No?

My second question is if I want to go back packing and take a rifle with me ( example Keltec rifle which collapses in half/ or a OLL upper / lower dissembled to fit in pack) would carrying the rifle in pack be considered concealed and or legal to do?

Does the Original post only apply to handguns?
The thread deals with carrying firearms of any type on publicly owned outdoor recreational lands such as NF/NP/SP/BLM. The restrictions on possession, carry, loaded status, etc. apply to all types of firearms. Privately owned lands are a different story with fewer restrictions.

A legal rifle or shotgun (i.e. long gun) isn't "concealable" under the law as per definition. That includes collapsible or breakdown rifles like my Marlin 70PSS. It may be out of view in your pack, but it isn't "concealed" so you can't be charged with a 12025 violation.

Note that there are laws that apply only to rifles and shotguns (e.g., Fish and Game Code 2006) and county codes sometimes treat them differently than handguns. For example, Mendocino county's codes set different minimum-distance-from-dwelling distances for shotguns vs. rifles and handguns. County codes apply in all of the public lands so you need to know them well. One more example - this sign is out in Tahoe National Forest, and the area it warns about is defined in the county code:



Because I had carefully read the county code in advance, I knew that it was perfectly legal to continue on and travel through that area with my always-present 70PSS survival rifle tucked away in the rear bag (unloaded, disassembled, and container locked for good measure for when I trailer through GFSZs). I would have been OK even if I entered on a trail that doesn't have one of those big yellow signs.

Learn all you can from this thread and then go read the county codes (carefully) for wherever you intend to go. That greatly increases the chances that you'll remain out in the woods/parks/public lands vs. ending up being transported to jail.
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Last edited by GrizzlyGuy; 03-15-2011 at 8:18 AM..
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  #234  
Old 03-15-2011, 5:02 PM
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Would be nice to have a list of parks that allow firearms.
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  #235  
Old 03-15-2011, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PixelBender View Post
Would be nice to have a list of parks that allow firearms.
Assuming you're talking about National Parks, thanks to HR 262 (see first post) they all must allow firearms unloaded open carry or if you have a fishing license, unloaded concealed carry.
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Old 03-16-2011, 1:10 PM
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I was looking more for a list of parks that allow you to set up firing lines. A few of my friends and I want to go out to the desert and shoot the **** out some targets in scenarios.

50yrd dash to first target @ 50 yards, 2 to head 3 in the 9 ring.
25yrd dash to second target @ 75yrds 5 in the 9 ring - crouching
50yrd dash to third target @ 150yrds 5 in the 9 ring - from cover/prone
25yrds dash to fourth target @ 15yrds 10 in the 9 ring (Pistol/Secondary)

etc etc etc...
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Last edited by PixelBender; 03-16-2011 at 1:13 PM..
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  #237  
Old 03-16-2011, 2:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PixelBender View Post
I was looking more for a list of parks that allow you to set up firing lines. A few of my friends and I want to go out to the desert and shoot the **** out some targets in scenarios.
I don't believe there are any national parks which allow for the discharge of a firearm. You'll need to go to either a National Forest, BLM or certain National Wilderness' which have not banned firearm discharge.
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  #238  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:21 AM
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Great thread, only read the first few pages so forgive me if I my question has already been answered.

Anyways, from what I gather, I can go up to a national forest, (tahoe and el dorado closest ones to me), and assuming I am not in a prohibited area I can set up targets or whatnot and do some shooting as well.

Now, is it also legal to hunt in the NF? Assuming of course I have a license and shoot what is in season. (I'm mostly talking about small game/animals that can be taken year round)?
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull's_eye View Post
Anyways, from what I gather, I can go up to a national forest, (tahoe and el dorado closest ones to me), and assuming I am not in a prohibited area I can set up targets or whatnot and do some shooting as well.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull's_eye View Post
Now, is it also legal to hunt in the NF? Assuming of course I have a license and shoot what is in season. (I'm mostly talking about small game/animals that can be taken year round)?
Yes.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:30 PM
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ATTENTION: If you ever suffer any harassment while legally using firearms or receive incorrect legal information from any NF or BLM LEO, please report it using the form that Oaklander has posted here.
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