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  #121  
Old 02-16-2010, 8:55 PM
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I went camping in stanislaus nat. Forest in the fall an I LOC all day and spoke to two rangers and they were surprised I was but did not have a problem with it. I was away from other campsites. I think it has slot to do with how you present yourself and a bi on what rangers you see.
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  #122  
Old 02-18-2010, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AwakeAware1016 View Post
I went camping in stanislaus nat. Forest in the fall an I LOC all day and spoke to two rangers and they were surprised I was but did not have a problem with it. I was away from other campsites. I think it has slot to do with how you present yourself and a bi on what rangers you see.
While what you say is true, that your mileage will vary depending on the individual rangers that you encounter, it is necessary to know exactly what is legal if you really want to avoid being prosecuted for something.

Actually, you should be careful with loading in Stanislaus, depending on where you are. The Emigrant Wilderness is the only wilderness in a NF that I know if that has ordered a 36 CFR 261.58 no-shooting restriction.
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  #123  
Old 02-19-2010, 9:29 AM
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Some of the NPs have updated their web pages already with regard to firearms being allowed starting Monday, like Yellowstone:

http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/10008.htm
http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

And some haven't yet, like Yosemite:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

We're supposed to see a national press release from the Park Service by no later than Monday on this.
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  #124  
Old 02-19-2010, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Some of the NPs have updated their web pages already with regard to firearms being allowed starting Monday, like Yellowstone:

http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/10008.htm
http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

And some haven't yet, like Yosemite:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

We're supposed to see a national press release from the Park Service by no later than Monday on this.
So can we Conceal Carry (loaded and chamber round) in these parks or does it have to be visible. If it has to be visible can you keep it locked and loaded? Also, which parks do not allow this:

Quote:
The rule, now a federal law, allows the carrying of concealed, loaded weapons in national parks and wildlife refuges in states where people are legally allowed to carry concealed arms. Proponents argued that the policy would give weapons owners more clear rules, and essentially allows guns in all but three of the nation's 391 parks.
Lastly, could we get some kind of chart (like the assualt weapon chart) showing us exactly where we can carry.

BTW to the OP: Thanks for the great information.

Last edited by POINTMANDDT; 02-19-2010 at 10:04 AM..
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  #125  
Old 02-19-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by POINTMANDDT View Post
So can we Conceal Carry (loaded and chamber round) in these parks or does it have to be visible. If it has to be visible can you keep it locked and loaded? Also, which parks do not allow this:.
Whatever is legal in the state, is legal in the parks. If you have a California CCW, then you can carry concealed and loaded. Otherwise you can not. If you do not have a CCW, then UOC (unloaded open carry) is a safe (legally) way to go. LOC may be legal but it's a gray area. And all this applies to ALL the National Parks. They may not like it but they have to comply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by POINTMANDDT View Post
Lastly, could we get some kind of chart (like the assualt weapon chart) showing us exactly where we can carry.

BTW to the OP: Thanks for the great information.
I will update the first 3 posts in this thread by Monday.
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  #126  
Old 02-19-2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Whatever is legal in the state, is legal in the parks. If you have a California CCW, then you can carry concealed and loaded. Otherwise you can not. If you do not have a CCW, then UOC (unloaded open carry) is a safe (legally) way to go. LOC may be legal but it's a gray area. And all this applies to ALL the National Parks. They may not like it but they have to comply.



I will update the first 3 posts in this thread by Monday.
Just to clarify, no conceal carry in Cali parks unless you have a CCW for California. You can carry loaded open carry in the national parks though?
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  #127  
Old 02-19-2010, 4:30 PM
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Just to clarify, no conceal carry in Cali parks unless you have a CCW for California.
Correct. And to be clear by "Cali Parks" we are talking specifically about National Parks in California, not California State Parks.

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You can carry loaded open carry in the national parks though?
I would advise against it. It is likely that it will be interpreted that the Parks ban on "use" (i.e. shooting) will trigger 12031 "prohibited area" language, and therefore bans loading (accept in your campsite, in an emergency, and other possible obscure exceptions). There may be a glimmer of hope for LOC depending on interpretations of arcane legal documents but IMO it is unwise at the present time. Stick to UOC.
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  #128  
Old 02-21-2010, 8:34 PM
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Default Another LOC Opinion...

So Mudcamper, Does Genes Statement in post #19 give you any confidence in LOC in CA National Parks?

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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
I would hazard to guess that at most National Parks, LOC is legal. I'm certain that in some it is not. It all depends on whether the county the land is in prohibits discharge.

LOCing where legal is certainly something everyone should feel free to do...

-Gene

I posted the same question to him that I did here and await a reply. He seems confident LOC is legal where it isn't restricted.

Your thoughts?

Edit: Gene replied and is posted below and edited for clarity.
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Last edited by Southwest Chuck; 02-21-2010 at 10:38 PM..
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  #129  
Old 02-21-2010, 10:34 PM
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Gene came to the same conclusion as we did, MC, based on my earlier post. I also asked him:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Chuck View Post
Gene,

In the advent of your statement, would CGF defend someone prosecuted under 36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)(1)(iii) via 12031 if they simply LOC (but didn't discharge) in a CA National Park if it was otherwise legal to do so?

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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
On second look, it doesn't look like you can LOC in National Parks in California...

Quote:
PC 12031 (a)(1)A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

...

(f)As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

There is a counter argument that this is a restriction only under State Law, but I don't think the counter argument is a winner.

Expletive!

-Gene
Double Expletive!
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I am humbled at the efforts of so many Patriots on this and other forums, CGN, CGF, SAF, NRA, CRPF, MDS etc. etc. I am lucky to be living in an era of a new awakening of the American Spirit; One that embraces it's Constitutional History, and it's Founding Fathers vision, especially in an age of such uncertainty that we are now in.
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  #130  
Old 02-21-2010, 11:27 PM
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So as of tomorrow i can open carry, loaded in redwood national park but what about its back to back state parks like Jedediah Smith and Prairie creek they all interlock at different points on the map what then?
What about Muir woods a very populated tourist spot.
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  #131  
Old 02-22-2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battleship View Post
So as of tomorrow i can open carry, loaded in redwood national park
I would not LOC. Only UOC for right now

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
On second look, it doesn't look like you can LOC in National Parks in California...
Quote:
PC 12031 (a)(1)A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

...

(f)As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

There is a counter argument that this is a restriction only under State Law, but I don't think the counter argument is a winner.

Expletive!

-Gene
He's refering to 36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)(1)(iii) which is a federal prohibition on using (discharging) a firearm in a National Park. That triggers PC 12031.
For a fuller explanation, go back a page or two in this thread. The discussion starts at post #116, I believe , or go to post #21 located HERE and read from there.
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I am humbled at the efforts of so many Patriots on this and other forums, CGN, CGF, SAF, NRA, CRPF, MDS etc. etc. I am lucky to be living in an era of a new awakening of the American Spirit; One that embraces it's Constitutional History, and it's Founding Fathers vision, especially in an age of such uncertainty that we are now in.
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  #132  
Old 02-22-2010, 9:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Chuck View Post
Gene came to the same conclusion as we did, MC, based on my earlier post. I also asked him:

Double Expletive!
I am still not fully convinced either way. It's People v Knight that casts things in a favorable light for us. I posted here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...6&postcount=40

Quote:
Originally Posted by battleship View Post
So as of tomorrow i can open carry, loaded in redwood national park but what about its back to back state parks like Jedediah Smith and Prairie creek they all interlock at different points on the map what then?
What about Muir woods a very populated tourist spot.
Go back and read the first post in this thread (which I am about to update for National Parks). California State Parks are totally different than National Parks in California. Guns are not allowed in California State Parks.
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  #133  
Old 02-22-2010, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Go back and read the first post in this thread (which I am about to update for National Parks). California State Parks are totally different than National Parks in California. Guns are not allowed in California State Parks.
FYI, I put info on state parks in the FAQ:

Can I have a firearm in a state park?
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  #134  
Old 02-22-2010, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Some of the NPs have updated their web pages already with regard to firearms being allowed starting Monday, like Yellowstone:

http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/10008.htm
http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

And some haven't yet, like Yosemite:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

We're supposed to see a national press release from the Park Service by no later than Monday on this.
Well at least there is now a national press release:

http://home.nps.gov/news/release.htm?id=962

"New Firearms Law Takes Effect Monday - National parks now subject to state and local firearms laws"
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  #135  
Old 02-22-2010, 4:08 PM
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Because state and federal law are equal to each other, federal says we can carry, state law says it has to be unloaded open.

So if we goto yellowstone NP can we open or concealed carry loaded?
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  #136  
Old 02-22-2010, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
So if we goto yellowstone NP can we open or concealed carry loaded?
Whatever the state law is that you are in. Yellowstone is in several states BTW.

For Parks in California, concealed carry is legal with a California CCW. UOC is legal. LOC is a gray area.
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  #137  
Old 02-23-2010, 8:30 AM
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I am still not fully convinced either way. It's People v Knight that casts things in a favorable light for us. I posted here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...6&postcount=40
Gene's opinion on this is that the AG opinion is only within the scope of public roads. This does make sense to me, but Mike over on OCDO had been quite convincing in arguing the local vs non-local shooting restrictions, so I hadn't been willing to drop it yet. At this point I will, at least for this thread's recommendations. So, no LOC in the National Parks, in California, for now.
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  #138  
Old 02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
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I searched San Diego County Code of Regulatory Ordinances and found this interesting:

SEC. 33.101. NO SHOOTING NEAR HABITATION -- SHOOTING RANGES.
(a) Other than in defense of person it shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle or any other firearm or device fired or discharged with explosives, at any place within the unincorporated territory of the County which is not a reasonably safe distance from all recreational areas, communities, roads or any occupied dwelling house, residence, or other building or any barn or other outbuilding used in connection therewith except on and pursuant to the safety regulations of a shooting range established and operated pursuant to a permit issued by the Sheriff.

SEC. 33.101.5. NO SHOOTING -- PERIODS OF HIGH FIRE HAZARD.
(a) Other than in defense of person, it shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle or any other firearm or device fired or discharged with explosives during any period in which a "high fire hazard" has been declared by the California Department of Forestry

SEC. 33.104. DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS PROHIBITED.
Other than in the defense of person or property, it shall be unlawful for any person to shoot, fire or discharge any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle or any other firearm or device fired or discharged by explosives, or air gun or air rifle in any portion of the unincorporated territory of the County within that portion of the County of San Diego described as follows (hugely complex listing of property boundaries omitted by tango-52)

SEC. 33.105. SHOOTING RESTRICTED.
Other than in the defense of person or property, it shall be unlawful for any person to shoot, fire or discharge any pistol, revolver, rifle or any other firearm or device (other than a shotgun) fired or discharged by explosives in any portion of the unincorporated territory of the County within that portion of the County of San Diego described as follows (hugely complex listing of property boundaries omitted by tango-52)


I would take the bolded parts to indicate that if I were carrying a loaded firearm for the sole purpose of defense of person, then it would appear to be legal as that is specifically exempted from restriction. This would apply to the unincorporated, public lands of Cleveland National Forest. Although we don't have any National Park lands in San Diego County, there may be similar verbage in other county ordinances that might apply to NPs. It is an exemption for self-defense purposes, not a loophole.
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  #139  
Old 02-26-2010, 10:58 PM
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So, being that we are all in CA. let me use Angeles National forest as an example. If i were to goto a campground there, and carried a loaded sidearm in an exposed holster while on my campsite, I would be within my legal rights??
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  #140  
Old 02-27-2010, 2:21 AM
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How about this scenario: AR-7 (Henry Survival rifle) disassembled and parts in the stock, magazine in the receiver NOT loaded; spare magazine which fits into the stock cavity LOADED. The stock containing the parts and LOADED SPARE magazine carried in the backpack. Is this concealed carry and illegal? Or is it permissible under the CA law?
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  #141  
Old 02-27-2010, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotwls13 View Post
Just get a CCW permit and keep it concealed.
That would be swell- want to explain how in a county that doesn't issue?
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  #142  
Old 02-27-2010, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
How about this scenario: AR-7 (Henry Survival rifle) disassembled and parts in the stock, magazine in the receiver NOT loaded; spare magazine which fits into the stock cavity LOADED. The stock containing the parts and LOADED SPARE magazine carried in the backpack. Is this concealed carry and illegal? Or is it permissible under the CA law?
"concealed" only applies to handguns....
.
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  #143  
Old 02-27-2010, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Blueduck View Post
So, being that we are all in CA. let me use Angeles National forest as an example. If i were to goto a campground there, and carried a loaded sidearm in an exposed holster while on my campsite, I would be within my legal rights??
From my understanding, yes, on the campsite exception in a National Forest.

Have you fully read this thread, most especially, the first 2 pages?


...Oh, and Welcome to Calguns ! Blueduck
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Originally Posted by Southwest Chuck View Post
I am humbled at the efforts of so many Patriots on this and other forums, CGN, CGF, SAF, NRA, CRPF, MDS etc. etc. I am lucky to be living in an era of a new awakening of the American Spirit; One that embraces it's Constitutional History, and it's Founding Fathers vision, especially in an age of such uncertainty that we are now in.
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Originally Posted by toby View Post
Go cheap you will always have cheap and if you sell, it will sell for even cheaper. Buy the best you can every time.
^^^ Wise Man. Take his advice

Last edited by Southwest Chuck; 02-27-2010 at 11:06 AM.. Reason: welcome
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  #144  
Old 02-28-2010, 9:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueduck View Post
So, being that we are all in CA. let me use Angeles National forest as an example. If i were to goto a campground there, and carried a loaded sidearm in an exposed holster while on my campsite, I would be within my legal rights??
This is legal in the NF and now also legal in the NPs.

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Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
How about this scenario: AR-7 (Henry Survival rifle) disassembled and parts in the stock, magazine in the receiver NOT loaded; spare magazine which fits into the stock cavity LOADED. The stock containing the parts and LOADED SPARE magazine carried in the backpack. Is this concealed carry and illegal? Or is it permissible under the CA law?
Perfectly legal per CA law and in NFs and NPs. Concealing a long gun is not a crime. Loaded mags attached to the gun legal (not loaded) per People v Clark.
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  #145  
Old 03-04-2010, 1:47 AM
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Default CA state park carry/storage.

M.C.,

CA state park handgun storage.

Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, traps, nets, bows and arrows, other unloaded weapons or devices may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.

Does a loaded mag qualify for "Not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism"?

Does a tent on my campsite qualify as "temporary lodging"?

if so,

Does a backpack in my tent, or in a locked suitcase in the tent considered "temporarily inoperable, packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"?

Or is my vehicle the only place I can have my handgun in a CA state park?

Thanks M.C.
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  #146  
Old 03-04-2010, 9:56 AM
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Quote:
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Does a loaded mag qualify for "Not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism"?
I'm not an attorney so I can't give legal advise here. While you or I might reasonably believe that no round in the chamber and no mag in the gun should qualify, and People v Clark may even be cited as related, Clark is actually specific to 12031, not some obscure CCR code. So, if a loaded mag were discovered in your possession by a Park LEO, it is quite possible that he would try and charge you. Short answer, I don't know. It's a gray area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitch Jones View Post
Does a tent on my campsite qualify as "temporary lodging"?

if so,

Does a backpack in my tent, or in a locked suitcase in the tent considered "temporarily inoperable, packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"?

Or is my vehicle the only place I can have my handgun in a CA state park?
Again, I can't give legal advise, but peronally I would keep a firearm in my tent (when I'm in it). But the wording here is "lodging" and not "residence" so the Parks might think differently. This is a good area for me to do more research...

However the tricky part with the State Parks is that they do not appear to have any exemption for transporting without motor vehicles. How does someone backpack through a Park and not violate s4313? I don't see a way. This might be a good one to write a letter to the appropriate Park official and get an opinion letter on.

Sorry I don't have a better answer for you at this point.
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Old 03-04-2010, 7:06 PM
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Default CA state park handgun storage.

M.C.,

I will look into it with the state park I will be camping/hiking at, and I am also going to Email the California State Parks Public Safety Division with my question and see what their opinion is. I'll get back to you when/if I get a response.

Adrian E. Itaya
California State Parks
Public Safety Division
(AITAY@parks.ca.gov)
(916) 651-0403

also had a question forgot to ask you and it will be included in my email to Adrian E. Itaya, "temporarily inoperable", in your opinion does that mean my firearm must be taken down? Or is this just one option I have along with it being packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"

Thanks for the advice! You are El Hombre. I've read alot of these threads on calguns ( O.C., What's loaded, Firearm transport, Parks and Forest laws, head hurts but well worth it ), and the Gurus like you and Librarian are very helpful. Keep up the good work.

Stitch
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  #148  
Old 03-05-2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Stitch Jones View Post
I will look into it with the state park I will be camping/hiking at, and I am also going to Email the California State Parks Public Safety Division with my question and see what their opinion is. I'll get back to you when/if I get a response.
Sounds good. Definitely keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Stitch Jones View Post
also had a question forgot to ask you and it will be included in my email to Adrian E. Itaya, "temporarily inoperable", in your opinion does that mean my firearm must be taken down? Or is this just one option I have along with it being packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"
Let me look at the code again,

Quote:
when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use
IMO it is clear that the "or" means just that. Only one of those two conditions must be met to comply. One way is to render it temporarily inoperable. The other is to store it in a manner that will prevent it's ready use.
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Old 03-09-2010, 2:51 PM
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Default CCR 4313

I sent this Email to The California State Parks
Law Enforcement & Emergency Services Division,

Hi, my name is Xxxxx Xxxxx and I am a legally registered Handgun owner. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and was planning to go camping at Big Basin State Park this summer. I would like to be clear on the California State Park Law on firearm storage. I have listed a few questions below reguarding the 4313 Weapons and traps per CA State Park law. Please let me know your opinion or any direct answers you may have so I may feel confident in bringing my legally registered handgun on my camping trip. I found the California State Park law 4313. on the link below my questions. I also included the actual law below the link. I know your time is important and I apriciate you reading my email. I would greatly apriciate any answers or opinions you may have that would help clear this up for me. Here are my questions;

Does a loaded handgun magazine qualify for "Not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism"? per 4313. Weapons and Traps.

Does a tent on my campsite qualify as "temporary lodging"? per 4313. Weapons and Traps.

"temporarily inoperable", in your opinion does that mean my handgun must be taken down (slide of handgun detached from frame)? Or is this just one option I have along with it being "packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"? per 4313. Weapons and Traps.

Does a backpack in my tent, or in a locked suitcase in the tent considered "packed, cased , or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use"? per 4313. Weapons and Traps.

Or is my vehicle trunk, or in a locked case in the the vehicle the only place I can have my unloaded handgun in a CA State Park?

http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21301

4313. Weapons and Traps.
No person shall carry, possess, or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, box and arrow, trap, net, or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property, except where the Department of Parks and Recreation finds that it is in its best interests. Nothing herein contained shall be construed in derogation of the use of weapons permitted by law or regulation and to be used for hunting in a unit, or portion thereof, open to hunting. Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, traps, nets, bows and arrows, other unloaded weapons or devices may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.


Here is my response,

Your e-mail regarding California Code of Regulations (CCR) section 4313 was forwarded to be for a response. Although the specific circumstances of a visitor possessing a firearm in a California State Park will vary, the totality of the situation would be a determining factor whether a State Park Peace Officer would find the individual in violation of CCR 4313. Therefore, I will answer your inquiries in a general sense:



A magazine containing rounds by itself would not constitute a loaded firearm. If the magazine was in the weapon, whether a round was in the chamber or not, the weapon would be considered loaded and in violation. The magazine would need to be stored separately from the weapon.


A tent does qualify as temporary lodging, as does a motor home, tent trailer, etc.


The removal of the slide/barrel of a semi automatic or the barrel of a long gun would render the weapon inoperable. In lieu of this, a weapon lock should be used.


A locked suitcase would prevent ready use. A weapon lock should be used if only using a back pack. Back packs are easily cut into.


Hope this information is helpful. I would recommend you contact the particular California State Park you are planning to visit.
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Old 03-10-2010, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stitch Jones View Post
I sent this Email to The California State Parks
Law Enforcement & Emergency Services Division,
Thanks Stitch!

Mighty nice of them to actually get back to you with their opinion. One thing I still wonder if they would offer an opinion on is this: How does one transport a firearm through a State Park if that person does not own a motor vehicle, or is backpacking through a State Park into an adjacent National Forest or National Park where firearms are permitted?
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Old 03-14-2010, 8:35 PM
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This is an excellent thread. I just need some clarification on one thing though. I go hiking/backpacking up in Desolation a lot, and once had a rather uncomfortable encounter with a mountain lion, so I figure that carrying a sidearm would be prudent in case I am seen as a menu item next time. So from what I have gathered from this thread, keeping a sidearm inside my backpack (loaded or unloaded, doesnt matter) constitutes concealed carry. But if I keep it on the outside it is open and legal. Is this correct?

I understand the rules for open carry, but am uneasy about carrying openly for fear of startling other hikers I may run into. Not to mention that hiking 10-20 miles with a 1911 on my side would be uncomfortable... (yeah I know, plastic gun fans enter your comments here)
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Old 03-15-2010, 8:21 AM
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... Not to mention that hiking 10-20 miles with a 1911 on my side would be uncomfortable... (yeah I know, plastic gun fans enter your comments here)
I hiked many times with my 1911 openly visible on me and saw quite a few people on trails but never saw anyone being scared of me being armed. It just never happened to me so far. People either do not see it at all or if notice it - they don't care.
I also usually carry heavy backpack or at least my camera backpack with lens and other stuff (~20lb) so adding few lbs for 1911 and couple mags does not change much anyways Feeling of freedom is totally worth it!
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Old 03-15-2010, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lead-Thrower View Post
This is an excellent thread. I just need some clarification on one thing though. I go hiking/backpacking up in Desolation a lot, and once had a rather uncomfortable encounter with a mountain lion, so I figure that carrying a sidearm would be prudent in case I am seen as a menu item next time. So from what I have gathered from this thread, keeping a sidearm inside my backpack (loaded or unloaded, doesnt matter) constitutes concealed carry. But if I keep it on the outside it is open and legal. Is this correct?

I understand the rules for open carry, but am uneasy about carrying openly for fear of startling other hikers I may run into. Not to mention that hiking 10-20 miles with a 1911 on my side would be uncomfortable... (yeah I know, plastic gun fans enter your comments here)
Yes unless you have a CCW permit, carrying concealed without a locking case is not legal. You could keep it in a small plastic locked case in your pack. Or open carry. Also, I believe fishing is allowed in Desolation, so if you bring your fishing license and a pole, you could take advantage of the 12027 exemption and carry concealed without a locked case.

One thing to think about. If you have another encounter with a mountain lion, what good will that pistol do you buried in your pack?
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:06 PM
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Thank you for the clarification. I may end up open carrying next time I go on a hiking trip. I understand that keeping the pistol in the backpack might defeat the purpose in a time of desperate need anyways, but I was just afraid of startling other hikers.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
Yes unless you have a CCW permit, carrying concealed without a locking case is not legal. You could keep it in a small plastic locked case in your pack. Or open carry. Also, I believe fishing is allowed in Desolation, so if you bring your fishing license and a pole, you could take advantage of the 12027 exemption and carry concealed without a locked case.

One thing to think about. If you have another encounter with a mountain lion, what good will that pistol do you buried in your pack?

Do you know if you can conceal carry loaded with this 'fishing' exemption or does it have to unloaded? Do most rangers (DFG) know how to deal with this exemption? Just wondering.
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Old 03-16-2010, 12:11 AM
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Default Doh, should have read the OP!

I went back and read your initial posts (didn't know you were the OP, just following a new post to a long thread - should always go back and read initial posts )

Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED when fishing or hunting.

Kudos for all of the great information in those initial threads!

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Old 03-16-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ArticleTheFourth View Post

Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED when fishing or hunting.

How did you reach this erroneous conclusion?
.
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Old 03-16-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
How did you reach this erroneous conclusion?
.
I got this from OP's second post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
State PC 12027 exemption to 12025 (abridged)

Quote:
12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.
Remember Lead-Thrower's question and OP's followup about 12027 that I was asking a followup question to in a few threads back was about carrying a handgun open or concealed while backpacking in Desolation essentially traveling to and from fishing (or hunting). It appears that that you must carry unloaded while traveling (backpacking), but maybe that is just a judgment call of when you should decide to load your handgun while transitioning from traveling to actively hunting or fishing.

Transition time could be long.
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Old 03-16-2010, 1:08 PM
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For the benefit of newbies walking in:

You posted:

"Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED when fishing or hunting."

But cite the PC where it says

"Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED WHEN GOING TO / COMING FROM fishing or hunting."

The proper conclusion is:

"Can carry concealed and LOADED when fishing or hunting, and can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED WHEN GOING TO / COMING FROM fishing or hunting."

.

Last edited by GuyW; 03-16-2010 at 1:11 PM..
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Old 03-16-2010, 4:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
For the benefit of newbies walking in:

You posted:

"Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED when fishing or hunting."

But cite the PC where it says

"Can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED WHEN GOING TO / COMING FROM fishing or hunting."

The proper conclusion is:

"Can carry concealed and LOADED when fishing or hunting, and can carry concealed but must be UNLOADED WHEN GOING TO / COMING FROM fishing or hunting."

.
I do believe you are correct on the last sentance.

I did give you the PC that the OP wrote at the beginning parts of this thread and I did not put my original language in quotes so it was not an extraction from PC, it was simply my own opinion from the OPs vast amount of information on this topic. I'm not a lawyer (just an engineer) and have not studied the actual PC on this topic.

The real issue here is whether or not one can carry loaded and concealed while backpacking on public wilderness for the purpose of hunting or fishing at the destination. Would it depend upon how far the backpacking portion was? Would it depend upon whether one is crossing several different types of public land while backpacking?

Essentially, is the backpacking defined as 'going to / coming from' or is it defined as 'fishing or hunting'? I would say the former until you get close to your destination. How close would depend upon the length of the backpacking, but that's just my opinion.
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