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  #201  
Old 10-07-2011, 1:43 PM
oaklander oaklander is offline
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Originally Posted by Japsican View Post
Hey Everyone, I haven't been on CGN for a while and haven't been keeping up with the OLL/Bullet button situation, but I'm wondering if things are starting to settle down a bit? Are OLL's so common now that LEO is a little more up to speed on OLL's and BB's? I know we all need to follow the flow chart and I know there'll always be that one LEO that thinks a legally configured OLL is and AW, but I'm hoping I can be a little less paranoid these days. The market has flooded with legally configured rifles utilizing BB's, and with big retailers such as Turners making them available to the public, how could OLL's not be viewed as the norm by LEO?
It still depends on the local agency.

What I am seeing now are arrests for IMPROPERLY CONFIGURED OLL's. I am seeing less arrests for OLL's.

I have seen ZERO successful felony prosecutions for possession of a legally configured OLL (there is no crime there, so impossible to prosecute). HOWEVER, there are close calls because people have not used good defense lawyers, and/or have not properly triangulated with CGF.

There are also cases where folks plead out, and lose their gun rights for something that is simply NOT A CRIME.

ALSO - most arrests now are NOT related to traffic stops. They tend to be cases where LE comes to a house for "reason x" and then finds rifles that are not properly configured. We are doing outreach with LE, and we are hoping to continue our educational efforts.

The CA DOJ IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS STATE OF AFFAIRS. They are letting down rank and file LE by not properly promulgating appropriate training materials. As far as I know, the CA BOF website still contains information that is factually and legally wrong. If they were a law firm, this would be cause for sanctions from the Bar. It is that bad.


Sent from my Maxi-Pad.
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  #202  
Old 10-31-2011, 4:00 PM
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WOW...what a thread. I have read most of it...I'm just confused about one thing...

OLL...off list lower? What exactly does that mean?

I recently built an AR, and have been to the range a few times. However, just to be safe, even though I transport with a MAGVAULT (made by gunvault) inserted in the magwell, that I need to invest in some 10rd mags to be legal at the range.

Sadly, I did not realize that there is so much that makes these "illegal." I do have the "pistol grip" and the aforementioned rad-lock....damn...LOL

Again, thanks for the plethora of information, much appreciated.
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  #203  
Old 11-01-2011, 9:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr3313 View Post
WOW...what a thread. I have read most of it...I'm just confused about one thing...

OLL...off list lower? What exactly does that mean?

I recently built an AR, and have been to the range a few times. However, just to be safe, even though I transport with a MAGVAULT (made by gunvault) inserted in the magwell, that I need to invest in some 10rd mags to be legal at the range.

Sadly, I did not realize that there is so much that makes these "illegal." I do have the "pistol grip" and the aforementioned rad-lock....damn...LOL

Again, thanks for the plethora of information, much appreciated.
Thank you! Many of us have worked long and hard to make this happen. The key is realizing:

1) these firearms are 100 percent legal, and:

2) some people do not know that yet.

OFF-LIST means it is not on the banned-by-name list. Also - please remember that legal means legal everywhere! The big issue with rifles that use bullet-buttons (vs featureless), is that folks seem to forget that inserting anything larger than a 10 round magazine means that you both have manufactured AND possess an AW.

Crap - yet another acronym!

;-)


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  #204  
Old 11-23-2011, 9:24 AM
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Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.
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  #205  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr3313 View Post
Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.
correct, you if you have a fixed-mag, it can't be over 10-rounds lest it be considered an AW.

Why? Because they wanted to ban those evil cheap SKS's with the banana-clips.

the fact that you could go featureless and run a large-cap mag either didn't cross their mind or they didn't want to ban your average mini-14 or M1a. that way they could claim that they were just going after the EBRs, not the pretty wood ones.
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  #206  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr3313 View Post
Ok, so...this is my current config (for the most part):
16" bbl, YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip, and rad-lock

Why does that mean I CAN'T use 30rd mags? I would think that if I DIDN'T have the rad-lock it would make more sense to not be allowed to use the full cap mags. I know it's CA, and I know it's stupid, but what's the reasoning? Why are we limited to 10rd mags, IF we have to use a tool to release it anyway? Again, wouldn't having it available without the rad-lock and having the full cap mags make it "worse?" ie illegal.
Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.




.....
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  #207  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.
really? Feinstein took on hi-cap mags due to a bank robbery in 1997?

the hi-cap ban started in 1994, 2+ years BEFORE the N. Hollywood bank robbery.
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  #208  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
really? Feinstein took on hi-cap mags due to a bank robbery in 1997?

the hi-cap ban started in 1994, 2+ years BEFORE the N. Hollywood bank robbery.
..... errr.... how come everyone points to that incident as a turning point in Ca. gun laws then?!!! ...

...........
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  #209  
Old 11-23-2011, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
..... errr.... how come everyone points to that incident as a turning point in Ca. gun laws then?!!! ...

...........
I didn't say anything about CA law. Feinstein dealt with federal laws, not CA laws.

And CA's assault on guns started way before that bank robbery. CA's first AW ban was in 1989.
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  #210  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
correct, you if you have a fixed-mag, it can't be over 10-rounds lest it be considered an AW.

Why? Because they wanted to ban those evil cheap SKS's with the banana-clips.

the fact that you could go featureless and run a large-cap mag either didn't cross their mind or they didn't want to ban your average mini-14 or M1a. that way they could claim that they were just going after the EBRs, not the pretty wood ones.
Ok...so...what defines "featureless?" No pistol grip? I still have a shoulder stock, my barrel is still 16"+, it's still longer than 30" OAL. I can have a mini-14 with full cap mags, no prob? But not an "AR" that's not a "AW?" WTF? BS!?! I hate this stupid state sometimes
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  #211  
Old 11-23-2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr3313 View Post
Ok...so...what defines "featureless?" No pistol grip?
its covvered in the flowchart, but in your case, "YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip", there's 3 evil features right there.

Quote:
I still have a shoulder stock, my barrel is still 16"+, it's still longer than 30" OAL. I can have a mini-14 with full cap mags, no prob? But not an "AR" that's not a "AW?" WTF? BS!?! I hate this stupid state sometimes
set up the AR to be featureless like the mini-14 and you can use large-cap mags once you remove the maglock.
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  #212  
Old 12-02-2011, 9:28 PM
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Stupid state. I mean why would you build/use an AR without some sort of compensator? Is the YHM Phantom a flash hider/supressor or whatever you want to call it. I have yet to see any AR (new or old) without some sort of "birdcage" on the end. How is that an "evil" feature?

Does the gov't really expect us to build/use this gun as a traditional rifle? Geez. Ah
well.
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  #213  
Old 12-02-2011, 9:57 PM
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Flash hiders aren't the same as compensators.
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  #214  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsr3313 View Post
Does the gov't really expect us to build/use this gun as a traditional rifle? Geez. Ah
well.
they didn't expect us to build/use these guns at all. they figured that they had banned them, but luckily for us, they don't know how to properly write a comprehensive ban.
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  #215  
Old 12-07-2011, 4:11 PM
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Default New here

After reading oaklanders post you got me scared to bring a gun to California now I have to find out what OLL is
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  #216  
Old 12-19-2011, 12:02 PM
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Default I'm Confused about this statement...

"Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines should never be able to loosen on their own or be unloosened by hand, so lockwashers and some Locktite™ are useful – especially since the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached! Placement of some adhesive inside the magazine well is also helpful."
Copied from:
M E M O R A N D U M
California Assault Weapons Laws: Legal Issues
Involving “Off-list” AR-type & AK-type Rifles
TO: California Public Defenders & Law Enforcement Personnel
FROM: William M. Wiese Jr., Calguns.Net DATE: April 31, 2006

Referring to the underlined sentence, does this mean one is not allowed to take their fixed magazine, fully compliant centerfire rifle to a range and use a tool to detatch the magazine in order to reload because a pistol grip remains attached?
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  #217  
Old 12-19-2011, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SURVIVOR619 View Post
"Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines should never be able to loosen on their own or be unloosened by hand, so lockwashers and some Locktite™ are useful – especially since the fixed magazine should never be removed while a pistol grip and/or telestock is attached! Placement of some adhesive inside the magazine well is also helpful."
Copied from:
M E M O R A N D U M
California Assault Weapons Laws: Legal Issues
Involving “Off-list” AR-type & AK-type Rifles
TO: California Public Defenders & Law Enforcement Personnel
FROM: William M. Wiese Jr., Calguns.Net DATE: April 31, 2006

Referring to the underlined sentence, does this mean one is not allowed to take their fixed magazine, fully compliant centerfire rifle to a range and use a tool to detatch the magazine in order to reload because a pistol grip remains attached?
If you're firearm is unable to accept a detachable magazine (you must use a tool to "disassemble" the firearm), then you're A-OK...unless the law has changed recently...

* "Disassemble" basically means using a tool to remove a permanent fixture - like a fixed magazine.
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  #218  
Old 12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
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Thanks, that makes me feel better as I recall several trips to the range using my tool to disassemble the rifle in order to reassemble a refilled magazine.

I appreciate the response.
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  #219  
Old 12-19-2011, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
its covvered in the flowchart, but in your case, "YHM flash hider, adj stock (not less than 30"), pistol grip", there's 3 evil features right there.

set up the AR to be featureless like the mini-14 and you can use large-cap mags once you remove the maglock.

I imagine magazine laws still apply, so do not use normal capacity mags in your featureless rifle either unless you already LEGALLY own some.



Do not construe anything I say as legal advice.

Last edited by shortround1; 12-19-2011 at 2:01 PM..
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  #220  
Old 12-19-2011, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortround1 View Post
I imagine magazine laws still apply, so do not use normal capacity mags in your featureless rifle either unless you already LEGALLY own some.



Do not construe anything I say as legal advice.
AW laws for the most part are completely separate from magazine acquistion laws.

it would not be an AW violation to use large-cap detachable mags in your featureless rifle, even if you "ILLEGALLY" owned those mags.
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  #221  
Old 12-20-2011, 1:58 AM
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While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. Although some states require police to inform the person of the intent to make the arrest and the cause for the arrest,[14] it is not always obvious when a detention becomes an arrest. After making an arrest, police may search a person, her belongings, and her immediate surroundings.

Whether an arrested person must identify herself may depend on the jurisdiction in which the arrest occurs. If a person is under arrest and police wish to question her, they are required to inform the person of her Fifth-Amendment right to remain silent by giving a Miranda warning. However, Miranda does not apply to biographical data necessary to complete booking.[15][16] It is not clear whether a “stop and identify” law could compel giving one’s name after being arrested, although some states have laws that specifically require an arrested person to give her name and other biographical information,[17] and some state courts[18][19] have held that refusal to give one’s name constitutes obstructing a public officer. As a practical matter, an arrested person who refused to give her name would have little chance of obtaining a prompt release.
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  #222  
Old 12-20-2011, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SURVIVOR619 View Post
Thanks, that makes me feel better as I recall several trips to the range using my tool to disassemble the rifle in order to reassemble a refilled magazine.

I appreciate the response.
The critical phrase in the bit you quoted is "Nut/bolt setups retaining fixed magazines"; since the weapon WOULD be able to accept a detachable magazine while the nut/bolt contraption would be loosened or removed, having 'features' at the same time is a problem.

But magazine locks such as the bullet button always operate only with a tool; there is no intermediate state in normal operation. A properly installed magazine lock of that type modifies the weapon so any magazine inserted would require a tool to disassemble it from the gun.
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  #223  
Old 12-21-2011, 2:37 PM
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Thank you, Librarian, for emphasizing the specific words I could not clearly decipher.

Best Regards,

Survivor619
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  #224  
Old 12-21-2011, 7:21 PM
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Default Question for you guys...

My AR is an early 90's bushmaster pre-ban rifle. When the Cal AW registration law came up, I registered mine.

So, I have a standard pre-ban mag release and several legal 30 round mags. The upper is a plain varmint barrel with no flash hider.

Problem is, I just started looking for my old paperwork. So far, I can't find it.

Any advice on this?
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  #225  
Old 12-21-2011, 8:27 PM
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You can ask the DOJ for a list of weapons registered in your name... might take a while.
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  #226  
Old 12-21-2011, 8:50 PM
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Default Thanks...

I did some more digging, and found my docs from DOJ.

Will make some copies and keep them in my car and gun case.

Just in case I get pulled over by an LEO.
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  #227  
Old 12-25-2011, 8:52 PM
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First of all thank you for this post and for all the information you guys have collected and put to use to help people!
I am building a AR from a 80% lower and am doing alot of homework while I wait for my build party to happen. I was wondering what other paperwork I should maybe keep with me in case of leo questioning my lower.
I plan on a pistol grip, bb, 10 round blocked pmags, and comp.
If anyone could give advice or links to paperwork that is a must carry while transporting that would be great. Thank you in advance.
Edit- also people say there is no mandatory registration for a rifle built this way I think I also heard a pistol built from an 80% Receiver didn't have to be registered. I would like to know why or at least read about that in case I need to know.

Last edited by Silverone858; 12-27-2011 at 8:42 PM.. Reason: Had to add something
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  #228  
Old 01-02-2012, 8:35 PM
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Default kool post..im a new gun owner

what is oll anyways??
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  #229  
Old 01-02-2012, 8:56 PM
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OLL = Off List Lower

The Calguns ACRONYM thread (OLL, MMG, AM, etc.)!!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=78606


The Official OFF-LIST List is HERE!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=34397
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  #230  
Old 01-12-2012, 11:41 AM
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Ive read through the whole thread and i think i have a question that i have not seen an answer to. I recently bought a dual mag clamp for my WASR 10/63. It holds both of my 10/30 mags, and my question is, is this legal? Can i have 2 10 round mags attatched to each other? My clamp is the type where they are side by side, as compared to the other versions which one mag is upside down. Thanks
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  #231  
Old 01-12-2012, 11:43 AM
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You're G2G, it's two seperate round mags.
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  #232  
Old 01-12-2012, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Remember the Bank of America robbery, when the two assailants had hi-caps drum mags that rained bullets on LEO's...that's why... it all started there with Feinstien taking on high cap mags... bugger!!!.. Feb 1997 North Hollywood.

.....

But NO ONE was hurt in that incident EXCEPT the bad guys. I say 30 round mags for everyone since the result in only bad guys getting killed!!!
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  #233  
Old 01-12-2012, 3:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnre View Post
But NO ONE was hurt in that incident EXCEPT the bad guys. I say 30 round mags for everyone since the result in only bad guys getting killed!!!
actually, multiple officeres and civilians were hurt during the shootout. I rcall that one officer was shot in the leg (shattered his femur IIRC) and he almost bled out.



wikipedia had this to say about it,
Quote:
In addition to the two perpetrators, eleven officers and seven civilians sustained injuries
wow, 18?!, I din't recall it being so many.
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  #234  
Old 01-12-2012, 7:58 PM
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Silverone858 Silverone858 is offline
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Can anyone offer some help with this?
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Originally Posted by Silverone858 View Post
First of all thank you for this post and for all the information you guys have collected and put to use to help people!
I am building a AR from a 80% lower and am doing alot of homework while I wait for my build party to happen. I was wondering what other paperwork I should maybe keep with me in case of leo questioning my lower.
I plan on a pistol grip, bb, 10 round blocked pmags, and comp.
If anyone could give advice or links to paperwork that is a must carry while transporting that would be great. Thank you in advance.
Edit- also people say there is no mandatory registration for a rifle built this way I think I also heard a pistol built from an 80% Receiver didn't have to be registered. I would like to know why or at least read about that in case I need to know.
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  #235  
Old 01-16-2012, 12:06 PM
adrenalinejunkie adrenalinejunkie is offline
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Can anyone offer some help with this?
Well from what i've read, you should definitely carry the assault weapons semi auto rifle flow chart that's under the ads up top in the flowcharts section and a copy of your DROS if you can get it. Also I guess you should carry a copy of your rights. I don't know of any other paperwork that you'd have to carry and can't help with AR pistol registration. Hope this helps man.
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  #236  
Old 01-21-2012, 7:47 AM
dragunrider dragunrider is offline
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What's an OLL?
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  #237  
Old 01-21-2012, 7:49 AM
dragunrider dragunrider is offline
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Oh, ok, I got it. Off List Lower.
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  #238  
Old 01-21-2012, 7:50 AM
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Chaos47 Chaos47 is offline
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Off List Lower. A receiver that is not banned by name.
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  #239  
Old 01-21-2012, 12:22 PM
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Silverone858 Silverone858 is offline
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Thanks for the reply the other thing I was wondering about is that it is a 80% lower build and because I built it from 80% I don’t have to register it, as far as I have been told but I have no idea where to find information about 80% lower reciever builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalinejunkie View Post
Well from what i've read, you should definitely carry the assault weapons semi auto rifle flow chart that's under the ads up top in the flowcharts section and a copy of your DROS if you can get it. Also I guess you should carry a copy of your rights. I don't know of any other paperwork that you'd have to carry and can't help with AR pistol registration. Hope this helps man.
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  #240  
Old 01-22-2012, 7:50 AM
SlickNick SlickNick is offline
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thats some of the best advice too, i did exactly that. its amazing how many folks even at your local range or shooting spot have no clue what the laws are. educate as many people as you can as well as your self and the mistakes made will be lessened.

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Great points as simple as they may seem.

I understand the excitement and wanting to rush right into it all, but take your time, and like I've said before, read, read read all that you can, this forum has so much knowledge on it, it's amazing. Buy your parts and keep reading while waiting for them to come in. In the DROS period, keep reading, understand the laws and WHY they are that way. Keep yourself protected. Print out the flow chart and other important defense documents and keep with your weapons at all times.

If there's one thing I learned when dealing with OLL is that it comes with a lot of responsibility, more than you would think at first.
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