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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-24-2005, 8:50 AM
ecwood ecwood is offline
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I have a legal question regarding ADHD Diagnosis and guns, can a child diagnosed with A.D.D. grow up and still have the right to keep and bear arms? I heard some shock jock on the radio saying they could not be police officer or military. I know not to take what some guy on the radio looking for ratings as gospel, but it did raise the question. I would like to know before my child is labeled rather then after.
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Old 03-24-2005, 8:50 AM
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I have a legal question regarding ADHD Diagnosis and guns, can a child diagnosed with A.D.D. grow up and still have the right to keep and bear arms? I heard some shock jock on the radio saying they could not be police officer or military. I know not to take what some guy on the radio looking for ratings as gospel, but it did raise the question. I would like to know before my child is labeled rather then after.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:31 AM
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Thanks Kestryll,
My fears are subsiding. But please never sugest this last sentece again.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would suspect that there is no restriction on it now but with so many children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD nowadays it would be a great way to limit or eliminate gun ownership in the next generation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks!
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:33 AM
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Ecwood...

The fact that you took your daughter for exam/therapy should not be an issue.

Now, if she was so whacked out & wild that the doc got her a 72-hr hold at psych ward, and further committed for a period of time by a judge, then that's different.

But I don't see this here at all. On the grand scale of things ADHD is pretty minor, when you think about it.

Surprised it's a girl, though!.

Most ADHD diagnoses seem to revolve around boys. I think 80% of this is just "boys being boys" coupled with lack of intense parental supervision to maintain focus.

I think many schoolteachers, sadly, recommend kids get medicated because it's easier for them to control the classroom that way than acquire real classroom management skills...

Anyway, good luck.

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Old 03-28-2005, 8:03 PM
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. Hello,

I do not know for sure but here is the phone number for Human Resources at the City of Hayward, 1-510-583-4500. Ask them and they will let you know, at least for police job not for the military.

I just found out today, I am diagnosed with ADHD. I went in to see my doctor about hernia. Doctor asked about stress, I said yes. OH BOY. He asked some more questions and referred me to Psychologist. Then I saw psychologist and after a barrage of questions he referred me to a psychiatrist. After appointment this morning and almost 2 hours he told me that this is his findings and that’s what the other doctors suspected. Great, now I am taking classes. He asked about guns and didn't seem worried about it.

I don't know how meds will help your child, however if it got to this point the quality of life sounds like its not what it could be.

I have 2 autistic teenage son's and unfortunately it was not easy decision to give our sons medication, however it got very violent, bloody, also our oldest son freaked out in car and choked wife while on freeway because wife did not get off the exit son was used to. Lucky she did not wreck, she almost hit the center divide and other cars.

Physical discipline does not work. Past tests on humans had discovered that electric shock treatment showed SOME progress after months of use. Sorry but rats responded way faster. Hopefully those barbaric testing of humans will end.

Those who say to use punishment are living in the days when we threw people in rubber rooms and had black and white TVs, shock treatment maybe even further back, caveman days - beat them with a club??? My sarcastic remark is "Yea let’s beat a child that needs help"

If you decide on the meds, I hope it works for your daughter. It was the least of the evils for us. We don't know the long term effects, but their life is now better than what it was.

Good Luck!

Dan
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Old 03-29-2005, 7:33 PM
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I gotta get in on this one...

I was born in 1957 and by 1961 was in the school system. In those days, there was no ADD,ADHD, blah, blah. If you were a problem, the school called your parents and they kicked your butt. Period. Misbehave and catch hell.

My Mom recently showed me one of my 2nd grade report cards she kept for all these years. The teacher was concerned about my behavior, and made the statement "Toby seems consumed with the military and constantly disrupts class and encourages other to do so. He is consumed with the military and commando tactics." Unruly? yes. Did my Dad kick my butt? Yes. Did I knock it off? Yes. Cooperate and graduate.

Imagine that.

For those of you that don't know me suffice to say I am now receiving a retirement from the US Army,I served my country for 27 years as an Infantryman, and I am still involved with Government work. I maintained honor roll while in the process of graduating college, graduated the Police Academy, and I have maintained CA Real Estate Sales license as well as a CA PI License.

I also have a 13-year old son that was diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. I say he is just an American male child being brought up in a different world than I was.

Hell, I have ADD! I have known alot of people that by simply opening their mouths and verbalizing send me into an ADD state. I have went through all the meetings, appointments, IEP's, calls from the school and all that. The cure for ADD is a kick in the pants. We all know that. I once went to a meeting with my boy's Teacher, Principal, Counselor, School Shrink, and his Shrink. What struck me as insane was that between all of us in the room there was over 30 years of college education, yet a 13 year old boy was calling the shots. After many hours of meetings, discussions and wasted time it became clear to me that the school just can't control the kids. Everybody that gives the teachers a problem has ADD and needs meds. The problem is all the pablum-puking liberal buttniks involved in education now are all making a bundle, not to mention the pharmacuetical companies, in telling American male children they shouldn't buck the system.

Go Figure.

My teachers controlled their classrooms. They ran the show. The new current batch need to do the same. Dope doesn't replace discipline.

Sorry for the rant.
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Old 03-25-2005, 3:43 PM
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If you really need a cheap mediation, try coffee-strong coffee-my mother in law served some"coast guard watch coffee" to my daughter when she was baby-sitting her at age 2-calmed her down all of a sudden-all these drugs do is at as a stimulant like coffee on someone with ADHD-maybe that's why i've been a BIG coffee drinker my whole life-calms me down.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:52 AM
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No bwiese,
I'm just about to setup the exam, and still very much in the learning process. It looks to me like it's going to be "Attention Deficit Inattentive Disorder" (not Hyperactive) if I got that right(?). More common in girls.
The School suggested it last year, I thought my kids not hyper, you just want to medicate..., but this year it became obvious that she's having trouble keeping up.

Thanks!!
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Old 03-25-2005, 8:22 AM
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james a. pikup

Thank you!

I don't know yet if she will need medication, I suspect she will. I hope for as positive an out come as you expressed. Hopefully without all the hoops.
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Old 03-26-2005, 3:54 PM
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I think it is natural and just fine to be cautious about 'taking away responsibiliy' from someone by giving them a medical 'out'.
Personally, I now believe in ADD.

A cautionary note...
Some medications can be stopped with little or no problems.
For other meds, patients should be weaned off them.
Parents should NOT stop giving their children these meds for ADD unless they fully understand what can happen by doing so.

You can find books that support current general medical practice concerning ADD, and you can find books that go against current general medical practice.
I advise anyone interested, to read both sides...cautiously.

A great organization for families dealing with ADD is C.H.A.D.D.
Here's their website
CHADD

I'm no expert on ADD.
There's a whole lot I don't know.
I will be happy to share what I do know with anyone who asks.
I have probably a dozen books on ADD, even one that decrys modern medical practice concerning ADD, and I've even read completely through some of them! that's a joke...
I am also somewhat knowledgeable about kilts and other MUGS, but that's a different topic altogether...SEE?... there goes that darned ADD again!

I like those smilies...

p.s. please disregard my misspelled words and poor grammatical skills, I was in a hurry...
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:54 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kestryll:
I was one of the earlier Ritalin kids, taking it both at home and at school. They still don't know how Ritalin works or what long term effects or damage it may do. I am reading up on it and am not pleased with what I am learning.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ritalin is a amphetamine type schedule II drug(controlled substance). It's in the same category as most opiate based narcotics. It's serious stuff. I wish parents would think more about what they put their kids on instead of just trusting the Doc.
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Old 03-31-2005, 6:52 AM
imported_11Z50 imported_11Z50 is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by wheelgunner:

Topic was, "I have a legal question regarding ADHD Diagnosis and guns, can a child diagnosed with A.D.D. grow up and still have the right to keep and bear arms"

My .02, refined from the rant,

The schools and Doctors too readily pin the title "ADHD" on a kid that simply is hard to teach. The schools also too easily advocate for parents to medicate. I'm sure I had ADD, still do. I learned/was trained how to control it by focusing on the task at hand. I think most males have ADD anyways.

Granted, there are kids I've seen with SERIOUS behavior problems that need meds, shock treatments etc. However most kids respond to a little gentle but firm discipline and meds are not needed.

If a parent too easily slides down the ADD slope and lets his kid get all the meds/treatment it could impact their gun rights down the road. Many kids stay on the meds/psychiatric treatment well into adulthood.
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Old 04-01-2005, 6:06 AM
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I agree that it is too easily diagnosed by people tha dont want to deal with an overactive child. It is not always wise to listen to someone that is in charge of 20-30 kids and says yours is different. It is a heads up to do some research if nothing else. I do agree there are times when the best medicine is good old dicipline, just how do you know is up to the parent and his or her child. We have done a lot with other forms of restriction but when it endangers anyone, the truth should hurt.
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Old 03-24-2005, 9:39 AM
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I do not know the answer but can perhaps tell you where to look further...

It seems that diagnosis is not an issue, it's whether or not there's been adjudication and civil commitment to a medical (psych) facility because some behavior triggered this. That is, a judge would have to do this. There may be some issues too with an short-term overnight "5150" hold...


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Old 03-24-2005, 6:24 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigAL:
It's serious stuff. I wish parents would think more about what they put their kids on instead of just trusting the Doc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Somehow I don't think the Doc is the one making the decisions on whether or not to drug up the kid. Most often it's some school district bureaucrat responding to reports of "rowdy" kids, and writing up a decree forcing the parents to drug up the kid.

Some times, even when the drugs are having serious side effects, parents are making themselves targets of lawsuits by refusing to administer the drug at home.
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Old 03-26-2005, 8:04 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CraigC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BigAL:
It's serious stuff. I wish parents would think more about what they put their kids on instead of just trusting the Doc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Somehow I don't think the Doc is the one making the decisions on whether or not to drug up the kid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the Doctor that has a duty to make the ADD diagnosis before perscribing any medication. And any Doc that lets someone else tell him what to perscribe should not be practicing medicine.
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:42 AM
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Man I'm so glad my parents didn't put me on any of that crap they have now. Cause I was definitely a canidate for ritalin.
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:06 PM
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Sometimes a good wooden ruler helps.....

I was a wild wooly kid when youngster. But I could always focus enough on schoolwork and make A's cuz I knew my "Mr. Mom" dad would pull me out of school and renew his teaching certificate and school would be 9+ hours, with piano lesson too. Being was home-schooled a bit when in kindegarten/ 1st grade helped too so I was several yrs 'ahead'. So I ended up developing skills to rush thru my work (and yet do a good job) so I could goof off a lot. Which infuriated my teachers, who said I was hyperactive


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Old 03-24-2005, 11:52 PM
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My daughter is 11 and has ADHD-you are quite wrong when you say "some school bureaucrat" put the kid on drugs. I had a HELL of a time getting Ritalin and then concerta for her-the school people refused all help at all-"too much paperwork".Went to my HMO and their sub-"Mental Health Server",took THREE years to get any action. Finally two years ago all approved-in 4th grade-"Best improved student, etc"
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:17 AM
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I have never heard of that nor have I ever had a problem with buying or owning a firearm.
Back in the early 70's when I was young I was diagnosed as 'Hyperactive', the forunner to ADD and ADHD.
I was one of the earlier Ritalin kids, taking it both at home and at school. They still don't know how Ritalin works or what long term effects or damage it may do. I am reading up on it and am not pleased with what I am learning.
Of course thing may have changed since then, no one kept track of who was diagnosed as 'hyperactive' the way they do the ADD/ADHD diagnosis' now.
I would suspect that there is no restriction on it now but with so many children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD nowadays it would be a great way to limit or eliminate gun ownership in the next generation.
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Old 03-31-2005, 3:43 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 11Z50:
I gotta get in on this one...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do recall that damn paddle in the principles office with the holes in it to reduce air drag, hurt like hell.

Topic was, "I have a legal question regarding ADHD Diagnosis and guns, can a child diagnosed with A.D.D. grow up and still have the right to keep and bear arms"

Ecwood any luck with H.R.?
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Old 03-28-2005, 4:28 PM
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My son is 10 years old and we have been struggling with his search for proper diagnosis and finally medications. I as a parent would not take the word of a single doctor on this issue we sought out 3 opinions and later had a published psychiatrist on this subject named Niva Dotan give my son special testing.
Yes he does have ADD, he was asked to leave 3 schools all private, and then told by the public schools system his problem was not severe enough and we would have to wait and see how it manifested itself over the next two years!
I actively sought out a private school that had a higher curriculum, and had an understanding of children like him. He is very intelligent. What we found was a Christian school that would take him and work with him as an individual, and introduce him slowly into the mainstream.
We started him on Ritalin, it did not work out, we then switched to Tenex, which is a high blood pressure medicine and the change was and is dramatic. He is now in with the rest of his class and is at the top socially. Yet there are some days…… .
The ADD part still shows up daily when we need to correct or limit him. It is all manageable. A work friend’s child was going through the same thing at about the same time. They moved to Vacaville to get better schooling and turned a blind eye to the ADD. They are now 4 years later going through what we went through then. The only problem is that their son is now labeled as a violent child by his peers and is no longer trusted. I wish they would have dealt with this earlier, as we did, their child deserves it. They have started parenting classes and it has put a strain on their marriage. I remember him saying “ I will never give my kid pills, he will not be a zombie if I can help it!”
My son is having a rough go of not always getting his way. But so am I.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:23 AM
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Thanks bwiese,
I don't want to cut off my kid’s future choices, but at the same time, she seems to need help now.
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Old 03-26-2005, 3:32 PM
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Hmmm...where do I start?

The original question first!
A diagnosis of ADD, ADHD will NOT disqualify anyone for anything I know of.
This includes gaining a pilot's license but if the person is on medication, they need to be talking to a flight surgeon about that BEFORE they seek their certificate.
That's what my doc, who flies told me.

I got my first diagnosis of Adult ADD/HD 10 years ago.
Back then it was still new thinking that adults could have ADD.
Research seems to show that many kids outgrow some of the signs/symptoms of ADD when they reach adulthood.
As for me, 10 years ago I was just searching for some kind of answer why I could not finish college even though I tested fairly high as far as the intelligence quotient.
After my diagnosis, I took a med that I now don't remember the name of. My wife would know (she's a pediatrician), and I remember her wondering why the doc prescribed me that particular med.
Other than that, nothing much was done and I believe that no one, including me, really took it seriously.
I went back to blaming myself and struggling with various 'ways' to stay focused and complete tasks.

btw, by the age of 37, I had 34 jobs and not one lasting over three years. I was often trained 'on-the-job' in fields such as metal machineshop, welding, E.M.T., Legal records search, driving taxis, working for commercial diving outfits in the Gulf of Mexico (College of Oceaneering Graduate), etc.

I've only been fired from two jobs in my life and my total job count is currently up to about 40. My current job, working in a hospital lab, has lasted over three years now!

back to the issue...10 years later...
I found someone who specializes in learning disorders and ADD - child as well as adult.
I tested last year and had the same results;
tested in the high average, superior and very superior ranges (but you guys knew THAT already just from my posts...didn't you )

Diagnosed with Adult ADD and started meds along with sessions to help create a strategy for dealing with it.

I can still buy guns, still be an LEO, Firefighter, EMS, Pilot (once I go back and finish THAT school ) and Supreme Potentate of California, et. al.

After a good portion of a year, I still have days when I forget that I'm supposed to be at work...rarely happens though , I'm getting much better at remembering to pick up my daughter from school, creating a daily task list and following through with it, etc.

There's alot more to my life that I would like to organize...like time for shooting...but there will come a time eventually.

I started on Ritalin, didn't like the side effects.
I've been trying Adderall with some success.
Since I've had a good deal of medical training and can understand the technical info about these drugs, I can be an educated but cautious patient.
I did try the coffee, caffeine route with very limited success.
Now, if I mix coffee and Ritalin...

We had our daughter tested because she exhibits many of the same behaviors as me.
The same lady did the testing.
Her conclusion was that;
1. Our daughter is pretty smart (I.Q. 141...beats mine...but I'm not gonna let her know that! )
2. She does not have ADD
Possibly because of her getting 'bored' with her school work, she spaces out often and struggles to complete her homework before bedtime. Sounds like the same thing with you ecwood...pretty frustrating!

Having ADD is very frustrating for kids as well as adults.
There are varying degrees to which this affects people.
Self-esteem takes a BIG hit for a person diagnosed with ADD because they may frequently struggle with doing what seems easy/natural/normal for others to do only to be told they aren't trying hard enough.
After you hear that enough times as a kid you start to believe it no matter how much you know in your heart, how hard you are trying.

Then, you'll have that moment the 'experts' call HYPERFOCUS.
You'll be seen taking on some task oblivious to the world, and everyone will have their suspicions confirmed! You only do well with the things you LIKE. The things you don't like, you don't work hard enough on.
Again, they don't really know the truth as you know it.

Kids who know they are being tested or are diagnosed with ADD/HD might very well see themselves as 'different'. Meaning that they might feel second-class to the other kids they associate with.
Remember, they already know they can't function like other kids...the teachers, sitters, parents, siblings, grandparents, etc. have already told them so.
The stigma is real in some cases and definitely is hard for kids to live with.
Drug use, Alcohol abuse, risky behavior including criminal acts can be attributed to the ADD.
I never 'lost' myself in the drug culture, but I did do alot of things I shouldn't have...like breaking into schools, etc.
This happened as early as 10 years old and that was in 1970.

For the past 10-15 years, I'd venture, this business about 'Ritalin Kids', has been a constant issue with pediatricians.
Like I said, my wife is one.
I have had the opportunity to hear her tales of teachers and parents who demanded that a child be placed on Ritalin even without proper testing and ruling out of other factors.
Then again, I know that medical professionals sometimes 'cave-in' to these demands when pressured hard enough over and over again.
It's not right, but as you can see, there's no ONE person to blame for mishandling of this issue.
Anyway, that's how I see it. The responsibility is different for each child's case. Whitewashing it by blaming one party only does no one any good.

That last comment was NOT directed towards anyone here, btw.

Some kids and adults do not need medication.
The mere knowledge and label that comes from testing and interviewing the patient, sometimes is enough to give that person or their guardians a place to start with real strategies which will be directed to the actual problem.
Once I accepted the diagnosis of ADD, and let me tell you....it was NOT easy for me to do because I STILL want(ed) to think it was just all for a lack of trying on my part, I finally had a tangible place/thing to take off from.

The medication is an AID! NOT THE FIX-ALL!
Medication alone will not resolve the whole issues surrounding a person's ADD.
For someone as old as I am, I have to acknowledge and be willing to change behaviors I have engrained over the years.

Medication comes in two categories;
1- Stimulants
2- Antidepressants

Sometimes people who think they have ADD are instead diagnosed with BiPolar Disorder or Depression. This may be correct or they may be concurrent with a person's ADD.

One thing for sure, alot of this mental/psychological/emotional medical business depends on what an individual believes.
If you do not believe in ADD, then nothing offered to you in this arena will make a difference...most likely.
If you do not accept Depression as a diagnosis, same thing.

I'll continue on another reply...
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  #25  
Old 03-25-2005, 3:20 PM
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maxicon maxicon is offline
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I'll add a me-too to the difficulty of getting the right treatment for kids with serious school problems, having gone through it with both of mine. One's turned into a major success story, and the other's still struggling.

Nobody at our schools pushed medication, and getting them to care at all either way was a huge struggle in itself, because my kids aren't disruptive. It's really up to the parents, and those who can't afford good doctors and treatment are just out of luck, since most insurance programs don't support this very well.

It's a very hard decision for a parent to make, and I don't know any who make it lightly or fail to agonize over whether they're doing the right thing. You're basically modifying your kid's personality, and there's a lot of trial and error magic to it, instead of science.

If you're lucky, you hit the right combination of therapy, treatment, whatever, and your kid turns out fine, and copes with their issues without a lifelong drug crutch. If not, you never know whether you did the right thing or whether you made things worse, and I can't think of a worse feeling as a parent.

Best of luck to you, ecwood, your daughter sounds just like mine was. Our home life was consumed by her homework. She's the one that turned out great; at one point, after tons of therapy and money, it was like a switch was flipped, and everything fell into place. We're hoping for the same with my son - only time will tell.
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Old 03-25-2005, 8:24 AM
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My Daughters not rowdy, she's not hyperactive, she's not dumb, the poor dear just can't stay focused, she's bored instantly with anything repetitive, and we spend Two hours a night doing 30-45min. worth of homework. I didn't ask for medical or parental advice! I did ask about legal ramifications, and I thank you all for easing my fears on that front.

Thank You!

P.S. Now before you start beating up all the a.d.d. kids, parents, doctors, teachers, etc...., please remember. In less, your kid or you are struggling with this, you really don't know. You’re just expressing an opinion not necessarily based on fact. If you lived though this back when they did nothing much for it, think back to all the trouble (or perhaps, self-medicating you may have done?).



God be with you!
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