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  #1  
Old 05-04-2009, 1:22 PM
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Default 5150 Holds. . .

I had a question that has been bugging me for a while. When a person gets placed on a 72 hour 5150 hold due to danger to self. What goes into their background. Is it a temporary thing, or are 5150 holds permanently on your record?

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Old 05-04-2009, 1:26 PM
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Uh oh, What did you do?



j/k I have no idea. This was just a feeble attempt at humor.
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  #3  
Old 05-04-2009, 1:33 PM
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Quote:
4473
Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manage your own
affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
For most its a disquailfer. I knew one girl who had to go to court to have hers removed so she could buy a gun. Don't know how long they stay on your record, but the form says ever so thats what I would guess.
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Old 05-04-2009, 1:34 PM
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Uh oh, What did you do?



j/k I have no idea. This was just a feeble attempt at humor.
Lol. I see many 5150's as an EMT and was curious what would happen. . .

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Old 05-04-2009, 1:35 PM
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Ummmm...

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Old 05-04-2009, 1:38 PM
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Ummmm...

???

- G
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Old 05-04-2009, 1:55 PM
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Good question. I guard the local bhu hearings for my county (to keep the nutjobs from attacking the judge) and some of the people are pretty normal so I hope not. Many of the people in there go there voluntarily and of their own initiative, so that would suck if they are screwing themselves just trying to get help.

A lot of the people are just there to get a place to stay for a bit and some meds. They sent some homeless guy out with 40 20mg oxycontin pills and a whole bunch of methadone last time I was there, that guy probably makes more money than I do. Over 20 percent of the people who go there are back within a month, the place is a huge money pit.
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Old 05-04-2009, 2:20 PM
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Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm. The box on the 4473 doesn't apply to a person placed on a 72 hours hold and released with that period. However, the facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.
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Old 05-04-2009, 2:21 PM
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Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm per federal law.
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  #10  
Old 05-04-2009, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sac550 View Post
Someone placed on a 5150 hold, but not committed more then the 72 hours, can purchase/poss a firearm per federal law.
didnt that happen to the virginia tech shooter?
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Old 05-04-2009, 3:21 PM
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The 5150 hold is a hold for evaluation purposes. If they keep you past the 72 hours, then essentially they've done a 5250, which is a care/treatment hold for up to 30 days. Those holds require that two Docs agree that it's necessary to do so. IOW: while a LEO or LCSW can put someone on a 5150, they can't do a 5250.
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Old 05-04-2009, 3:39 PM
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what is a LCSW?
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Figure that out and exercise your mind.....
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Old 05-04-2009, 3:48 PM
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Licensed Clinical Social Worker. There are a few people that have authority to put someone on a 5150. That's one of them. There's also a VERY specific form that needs to be filled out. When I was an EMT (and later a medic), no form means no transport unless the LEO doing the form follows me and delivers the paperwork to the facility...

Yes, I had to know the rules for 5150 transports...

Last edited by CSDGuy; 05-04-2009 at 3:50 PM..
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  #14  
Old 05-04-2009, 5:14 PM
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Sac550,
Has it right. Facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.
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Old 05-04-2009, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CSDGuy View Post
Licensed Clinical Social Worker. There are a few people that have authority to put someone on a 5150. That's one of them. There's also a VERY specific form that needs to be filled out. When I was an EMT (and later a medic), no form means no transport unless the LEO doing the form follows me and delivers the paperwork to the facility...

Yes, I had to know the rules for 5150 transports...
We get those green forms. . .

- G
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Old 05-04-2009, 5:42 PM
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I went to a facility that had written "5150" on their Physician's order sheets. It was a telephone order. The Doc didn't examine the patient. The RN couldn't legally write 5150's. I refused transport. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't a legal order. The person was completely oriented... couldn't transport under implied consent. To say the facility was upset is putting it mildly.


Now they know better.
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Old 05-04-2009, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_1111@yahoo.com View Post
Sac550,
Has it right. Facility to required to report all 5150 holds to DOJ where the person is flagged for 5 years from purchasing a firearm.
This is true. A short story: My brother was placed on a 5150 for a medical condition. He was released within the 72 hrs. and was not held on a 5250. Many months later, he was notified by Calif. DOJ he had to surrender his firearms. In the notice, he was informed he could request a hearing before a judge. He requested a hearing. I went to the hearing with him. He was the first person in our county to request a hearing. The D.A.'s office didn't know what to do. My brother told his story. He had a horrible skin condition and needed to be admitted into Kaiser Hospital. Kaiser refused. A nurse whispered to him that if he said he was going to hurt himself, they had to admit him. Well, he did and was placed on a hold.

At the hearing, the D.D.A. actually went to bat for him in the hearing and the judge gave him his firearm rights back. About a year later, he purchased a new shotgun and cleared the background check.
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  #18  
Old 05-04-2009, 6:29 PM
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This is true. A short story: My brother was placed on a 5150 for a medical condition. He was released within the 72 hrs. and was not held on a 5250. Many months later, he was notified by Calif. DOJ he had to surrender his firearms. In the notice, he was informed he could request a hearing before a judge. He requested a hearing. I went to the hearing with him. He was the first person in our county to request a hearing. The D.A.'s office didn't know what to do. My brother told his story. He had a horrible skin condition and needed to be admitted into Kaiser Hospital. Kaiser refused. A nurse whispered to him that if he said he was going to hurt himself, they had to admit him. Well, he did and was placed on a hold.

At the hearing, the D.D.A. actually went to bat for him in the hearing and the judge gave him his firearm rights back. About a year later, he purchased a new shotgun and cleared the background check.
Where in Norcal are you? I guard the hearings at Dominican in Santa Cruz, just wondering if that's where your bro was.
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Old 05-04-2009, 6:55 PM
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Where in Norcal are you? I guard the hearings at Dominican in Santa Cruz, just wondering if that's where your bro was.
Just north of you in San Mateo County.
P.S. If you are Santa Cruz Co. S.O., I need one of your SWAT patches. I have some of ours to trade. P.M. me.

Thanks.
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  #20  
Old 05-04-2009, 7:09 PM
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Just north of you in San Mateo County.
P.S. If you are Santa Cruz Co. S.O., I need one of your SWAT patches. I have some of ours to trade. P.M. me.

Thanks.
I wish. I'm just a rentacop, my company is contracted by the hospital because we make way less than their in house security crew so they have us do a lot of stuff.
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  #21  
Old 05-04-2009, 8:06 PM
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+1 to all... If you are involuntarily committed for longer than the 72 hour hold, or adjudicated by a court as mentally disordered your firearms rights are gone.

IIRC, the issue with the Virginia Tech shooter was that he had been involuntarily committed past any temporary hold and that info hadn't made it to NICS.... hence he was able to purhcase X2 from an FFL when he should not have been able.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2009, 2:22 AM
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out of curriousity, what if it is a voluntary extension of the 72 hours? I got really bored and was reading a whole bunch of different laws and found this thread...
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2009, 8:49 AM
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Protective custody on a 5150 results from:
1. Danger to self
2. Danger to others
3. Gravely disabled (unable to care for self)
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Old 07-03-2009, 9:51 AM
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If a person is not arrested but put on a 5150 hold, then they get out and do something again where they are detained by law enforcement, is there anything that law enforcement sees in their background check that shows they had a prior hold or is that information sealed?
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:03 AM
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hmmm is it at the federal or state level that you get denied gun rights past 72 hour hold

My dad was 5150'd when he and my mom split up, he moved to a different state and can buy guns no problem.

Also I'm glad a 5150 means you don't get your guns taken from you...cause Gamma knows...some holds are TOTAL BS!
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:04 AM
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I went to a facility that had written "5150" on their Physician's order sheets. It was a telephone order. The Doc didn't examine the patient. The RN couldn't legally write 5150's. I refused transport. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't a legal order. The person was completely oriented... couldn't transport under implied consent. To say the facility was upset is putting it mildly.


Now they know better.
you could just say SNF.......OO and LOL I bet they were PISSED! LOL!
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:09 AM
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Here is a good link to information related to 5150 WIC commitments and firearms ownership.

http://www.dmh.ca.gov/DMHDocs/docs/notices99/99-17.pdf

More:

http://www.wagv.org/documents/Mental...CheatSheet.pdf
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Old 07-03-2009, 2:49 PM
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I work in a BHU and the cops brought in 8 5150s in one shift! With ER referrals and walkins we got 12 total new patients in one shift. And this was yesterday (Thursday) not even a weekend

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Old 07-03-2009, 3:04 PM
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You should all take a look at W&I 8102, as it relates to seizure of firearms from a person detained for evaluation under W&I 5150. As I recall it mandates (Shall Take) seizure of "any firearms whatsoever" under the control or care of anyone detained for mental evaluation under W&I 5150. Getting them back will likely require a court hearing. Good luck!
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Old 07-03-2009, 3:07 PM
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I work in a BHU and the goddam cops brought in 8 5150s in one shift! With ER referrals and walkins we got 12 total new patients in one shift. And this was yesterday (Thursday) not even a weekend
Sounds like a crazy night .........Was it a full moon???
Sound like a warm up for a bang up 4th of July
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Old 07-03-2009, 3:14 PM
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Sounds like a crazy night .........Was it a full moon???
Sound like a warm up for a bang up 4th of July
I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.
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Old 07-03-2009, 3:29 PM
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Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.
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Old 07-03-2009, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AirflowPimp View Post
Didnt spend the time to read all the replies, but 5150 holds are for evaluation purposes only. If I recall correctly, they used to have to report them to the DOJ but don't anymore. I think it was '98 or something when they changed the law about that.

The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).

When I first started in EMS I transported quite a few BS holds and they were evaluated and released within the hour. I had an S.O. try to put someone on a hold for gravely disabled. It was a 36 y/o female who was walking home from a friends house. She had 3 blocks to go and had already walked 2. She was drunk, but not totally wasted. We showed up, asked him what he was holding her for and he said that she didnt know where she was and didnt know the address of the house she came from, nor the house where she was going. I put her in our unit and started asking her some questions. Keep in mind we were in a tract home subdivision.

me: "do you know where you are?"
her: "i dont know the cross streets here, but i know im in the **** and **** area. (major cross streets)"
me: "do you know where you are coming from?"
her: "my friend ****'s house a few blocks over, but i dont know her address"
me: "do you know where you are going?"
her: "to my house, but i just moved in there a few weeks ago and don't know the address there either. But its only 3 blocks down **** street."
me: "what year is it?"
her: "2008" (was correct)
me: "who is the president?"
her: "bush" (was correct)
me: "so do you want to hurt yourself or others?"
her: "nooooooo, I just want to go home and go to sleep."

So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.

And I believe Sir that you are wrong about that point. It's LE that comes into contact with these 5150 paranoid schizos (EDP's) living under bridges. Many of them are violent. Nearly all are uncooperative. Can we call an MD, RN, LCSW, or EMS out at 0300 to crawl unarmed, under this overpass, Dipsey Dumpster, cardboard box etc., to contact the individual to make this evaluation? If so, provide 911 dispatch with your phone number, I will be happy to wait back at the station and let you or the other unarmed, yet highly trained mental health professionals handle it. LEO's would be happy to surrender this responsibility to you from response-contact-evaluation-transportation.

Bear in mind that it was the professional medical workers that wanted out of this "In the field" responsibility in the first place. They petitioned the legislature to make LE the occupation that gets first call to make the eval. LE sure didn't beg for it.

You are also incorrect about LEO's lack of training in this matter as well.

Last edited by Fire in the Hole; 07-03-2009 at 4:58 PM..
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Old 07-03-2009, 5:47 PM
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The issue is that some, (by all means not all of them and in fact its a small amount, but it still happens) law enforcement officers write 5150's for stupid/non-legit reasons based on their lazyness in not wanting to deal with them, so they pass them on to us (EMS).
AirflowPimp, do you know for a fact that some leos write them out of laziness in not wanting to deal with them or is this your opinion. In this particular example, you went into great detail implying the deputy was lazy, but then said,
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To his defense, I think he was newer.
.

Even if you had evidence to prove this, this is not a cop bashing forum and that in fact, is what you are doing, so don't.
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:00 PM
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I don't know fortunately I don't work back there for a few days. I had to lay hands on two people, and in the under 3 months I've been working their it was only the 4th and 5th time.
See I don't get why laying hands on people is such a big deal? Is it extra paper work for private security??
Cops, FF's and EMS lay hands on people ALL the time! What am I missing here?? Am I missing something here??

My ex bf used to do security and he talked about "laying hands on people" like it was a huge deal too
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:06 PM
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I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.
yea....idk about passing the torch to EMS....its nice to be able to say "look I didn't do this too you and I can help you in this situation."

Its also nice to have a guy with a gun present that the patient/suspect knows can get rougher than we can if need be.....
Plus I see medics writing 5150's as a way for more medics to get hurt or assaulted by pt's. If you take away the cop you will have medics going into bad situations with no backup and no way to defend themselves if the situation goes sour....you can't tell me counties wouldn't skimp on sending LEO back up to every 5150 call.....you know they would EVENTUALLY!
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:11 PM
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So i talked to the officer and asked him what was going on and he said that he didnt want her walking down the street because she was too drunk. And he didn't want to take her down town to holding because he had no reasons to detain her. I nicely informed him that he couldn't 5150 hold her for the reasons he was using, and that i would not transport her based on those reasons. He then started talking to another officer who showed up late, trying to figure out what to do with her and after 10 minutes of them trying to figure it all out I made a comment along the lines of "if you guys would be willing to take her 3 blocks to her house, we can all go back into service." He thought about it for 10 seconds and decided to take her home so we could all be done with that BS. LOL... To his defense, I think he was newer.

If my partner and i wouldn't have said something, then she would have been 5150 held for those BS reasons. I honestly think that whole system needs to change. I honestly don't feel LEO's should have the ability to 5150 a person. As it stands now LEO's, doctors, and mental services workers can 5150 a person. An LEO is not schooled in the medical field whatsoever, mental, or physical, and should not, IMO, be able to do it. They should pass that torch to EMS. If LEO has someone they think might meet the criteria, then should have to call for a medic unit, or a social worker to determine whether the person should be held on a 5150 for evaluation.
Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:11 PM
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Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:14 PM
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Sounds like they might have been able to go 647(f). Not sure why they would do a 5150 hold.
Maybe not drunk enough...for the (f) but too drunk to let go for agency liability???
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Old 07-03-2009, 6:23 PM
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Cops, Firefighters, and EMS know when they can and can not do what would otherwise be considered battery...
not really....ff's and ems at least, cops are different

So if a patient doesn't know whats going on, where they are, when it is and who they are then they are altered....if they are altered and need medical clearance then they go to the hospital. They don't get a choice cause they can't make a cognitive decision...so they go. If they fight, we can restrain, cause we have to take them...its the law. If they try to endanger myself or my partner we can restrain them cause our safety comes first.
Or of course a 5150 is placed we can restrain them

If we restrain someone who doesn't want to go and knows all the correct answers to the questions and isn't on a 5150 hold...that is battery.

But if someone is on a 5150 hold they have lost certain rights as far as going or not going....so if we can restrain a person on a 5150 to take them to a hospital, and the hospital can restrain them while they are there, and the EMT's can restrain them going to the psych facility, and EMT's and hospital staff can attempt to stop the patient from leaving (usually they back down to not get hurt...I know I'll let a psych pt go if I feel like I can't take em and I'm in danger and let PD handle it)
Whats the difference in a security guard at the facility restraining people on 5150 holds???
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