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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-26-2009, 4:50 PM
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Default Armed teachers and school officials in Israel: What is the real story?

So, I have read about Israel's post Ma'alot massacre arming of teachers and school officials from many Pro RKBA authors like Dave Koppel and John Lott. But I have heard conflicting stories as well. According to some, Israel has armed all teachers and parent volunteers with semi-automatic handguns. According to others, it is just some teachers. According to MSNBC, teachers aren't armed at all, but schools have armed security guards. Both of those sources are biased and I only mention them to give example.

Basically, I'm wondering what the truth is here. Does anyone have first hand knowledge or personal experience that can shed some light on this subject?

How about primary source documents?

Are Israeli teachers armed?

Which teachers (public k-12, university level, all school employees, parent volunteers, just security guards, etc.)?

Is it required or optional to be armed?

Are permits or training required?

Etc. etc. What is the ground truth here guys?

Thanks in advance.
-Pete
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Old 04-26-2009, 5:02 PM
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According to the people I talked to there aren't many teachers who are armed, but there are professional guards, armed parents and grandparents walking around the schools. They've been doing this since the 70's. Not sure about the permit process though, I believe there is one but I don't know if it's similar to ours.
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Old 04-26-2009, 6:00 PM
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According to the people I talked to there aren't many teachers who are armed, but there are professional guards, armed parents and grandparents walking around the schools. They've been doing this since the 70's. Not sure about the permit process though, I believe there is one but I don't know if it's similar to ours.

If you served in the military (almost everyone) you are eligible for a permit to carry...
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Old 04-26-2009, 6:32 PM
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Since our legislators want us to be more like Europe, maybe we could suggest gun laws that are more like Switzerland. I think Israel is probably a good example of firearm freedom, but I don't know enough about their laws to make an intelligent comment.
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Old 04-27-2009, 8:55 AM
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Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?



BTW, those are not semi-auto weapons. It's a different mindset in Israel.
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Old 04-27-2009, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?

BTW, those are not semi-auto weapons. It's a different mindset in Israel.
They are all off duty... Headed home or elsewhere, notice no magazines... They are in their pockets...

When on duty they generally have two mags strapped together...
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Old 04-27-2009, 9:08 AM
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They are all off duty... Headed home or elsewhere, notice no magazines... They are in their pockets...

When on duty they generally have two mags strapped together...
See? Even they UOC! HAHA!

Had to throw that in there.
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  #8  
Old 04-27-2009, 9:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?



BTW, those are not semi-auto weapons. It's a different mindset in Israel.

If saw that I would have to run home and well you dont want to know the rest...
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Old 04-27-2009, 9:30 AM
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If saw that I would have to run home and well you dont want to know the rest...
You wouldn't even attempt to get a phone number?
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Old 04-27-2009, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
So, I have read about Israel's post Ma'alot massacre arming of teachers and school officials from many Pro RKBA authors like Dave Koppel and John Lott. But I have heard conflicting stories as well. According to some, Israel has armed all teachers and parent volunteers with semi-automatic handguns. According to others, it is just some teachers. According to MSNBC, teachers aren't armed at all, but schools have armed security guards. Both of those sources are biased and I only mention them to give example.
I'm pretty sure a lot of them are armed. As you say, it's a response to the Maalot massacre.

Semi-auto pistols? Uzis? M4s? Does it matter? I assume it's just regular semi-auto pistols. It would seem cumbersome to tote around something bigger all day.

Lots of people there are armed. After the Ma'alot massacre, Israel figured out the simple formula: time = life. I don't know the timeline of Maalot, but in the VT shooting, he was killing about 3 people per minute. There would be one death in the time it takes to dial a phone. So they realized that anyone with some basic arms training and any type of gun whatsoever who is on the location is better than a SWAT team that's five minutes away.

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Are Israeli teachers armed?
Probably a lot of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
Which teachers (public k-12, university level, all school employees, parent volunteers, just security guards, etc.)?
Being armed in Israel is more a function of military service than of being in some particular category like that. It may be required for some workers; when I was there (not recently) I was told that bus drivers are required to.

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Is it required or optional to be armed?
It's optional.

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Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
Are permits or training required?
Military service is required, and a permit is required. No military service = probably no way to carry or own a gun there. Military service = you can get a permit to carry anywhere, and they don't make big (and irrational) distinctions between SA and FA as we do here.

Note that Israel does not have a gun culture. Practice ammo is severely restricted. Gun ownership is restricted to people with military service only (of course that includes nearly all Jews who grow up there). Israel was founded by a lot of Socialists, and they feel the same way about guns as Socialists do everywhere in the world: they are not appropriate for civilian ownership. Therefore they are restricted to people in the military (active, reserve, or former), and they have a permit system.

Their system basically sucks and would be intolerable to anyone from any of the shall-issue states. For example, if I were to make the aliyah (move to Israel) I would probably never be able to own a gun there, because I didn't grow up there and serve in the army. Great, I could re-arrange and disrupt my whole life to support Israel, endure the difficulties of being there and so on - and lose all my gun rights in the process. No thanks.

The only area where Israel has superior gun laws to ours is they do not make the irrational and artificial distinction we make between full-auto and semi-auto weapons. That's it.

Note that throughout the Middle East, there isn't a distinction between FA and SA. In the other countries there, the AK is a normal choice for self-defense, because it's cheap and reliable. Here, they are either $25,000 and require the NFA hassle, or else they are a very serious felony. We're one of the few countries that is so hysterical over FA stuff.
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  #11  
Old 04-27-2009, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
If saw that I would have to run home and well you dont want to know the rest...
Yeah, I understand. Just the photo makes me want to field strip my AR's and give them a good bore punching.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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  #12  
Old 04-27-2009, 9:54 AM
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is this a Girls and guns thread???
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  #13  
Old 04-27-2009, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?

I would think - "Damn, That's HOT!!!"
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  #14  
Old 04-27-2009, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AEC1 View Post
is this a Girls and guns thread???
Not yet it's not!

I started a Girls and Guns thread over on Opencarry.org. Not as popular as the CG one but hey, it takes time.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/22774.html
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  #15  
Old 04-27-2009, 10:47 AM
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I miss that thread. I wonder what USN Chiefs post count would have been had that thread not been deleated...
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post
If you served in the military (almost everyone) you are eligible for a permit to carry...
Very incorrect. The govt of Israel has been quietly revoking as many licenses as possible. Getting a firearms license is becoming more and more difficult, nearly impossible to the ordinary subject.

To the OP, teachers in Israeli schools are armed on a voluntary basis. I.e. no one is forced to carry a firearm, but if they have one, they are encouraged to carry.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:13 PM
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Very incorrect. The govt of Israel has been quietly revoking as many licenses as possible. Getting a firearms license is becoming more and more difficult, nearly impossible to the ordinary subject.
I wasn't aware of that happening. Somehow I'm not surprised. As I said, they do not have a gun culture there. There is no right to bear arms there. I know the permit process there is a pain; they go and interview the neighbors and so on. It's a much worse system than what we have here in the US in any shall-issue state. The permit is a pain to get and you probably can't even apply without military service. However I wouldn't be surprised if bribes could be used to get it.

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To the OP, teachers in Israeli schools are armed on a voluntary basis. I.e. no one is forced to carry a firearm, but if they have one, they are encouraged to carry.
That sounds like what I would expect there.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:15 PM
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Very incorrect. The govt of Israel has been quietly revoking as many licenses as possible. Getting a firearms license is becoming more and more difficult, nearly impossible to the ordinary subject.
Why in the heck are they doing that?
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts
. Somehow I'm not surprised. As I said, they do not have a gun culture there.
Everyone there serves at least a year or two in the army. With that kind of introduction I seriously wonder how they don't.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:17 PM
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Why in the heck are they doing that?
Because, it's a country founded by Socialists.

To give everyone the very short summary version: Despite all those pictures, Israel's gun laws totally suck, and I would hate to have those laws here.
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  #20  
Old 04-27-2009, 12:18 PM
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I suspect that Netanyahu will change some of the policies disarming Israeli Victims.
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Old 04-27-2009, 1:07 PM
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Don't forget, they have their "anti's" over there too. The US influance is not all good even over there.

When I was there in 83-84, the Military was patrolling the University in Haifa. I didn't go to any other schools.

And yes, girls (young women), walking around in Cami's with an M16 strapped on are HOT!!! They were all over the place, and ...

Never mind, shutting up.
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Old 04-27-2009, 1:53 PM
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Israel



now that's hot
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Old 04-27-2009, 1:58 PM
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now that's hot
Somehow it's much less hot when you're actually there.
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Old 04-27-2009, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?

BTW, those are not semi-auto weapons. It's a different mindset in Israel.
or this...

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Old 04-27-2009, 2:26 PM
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or this...

Gotta admit I like your pic better.
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Old 04-27-2009, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
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or this...

Methinks many American women can learn a lot from them.
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
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Old 04-27-2009, 3:15 PM
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I lived in Israel from 1990 to 2000, and attended 2nd through 10th grade in Israeli schools. I never saw a teacher that was armed on the school campus, but I can't say for sure about concealed handguns. In the first few years I lived in Israel there was one armed guard at the school, but he usually sat at the main entrance and didn't do much patrolling. After the second intifada started the security was noticeably increased, with 2-3 armed guards and constant patrols.

The only time I saw teachers armed was on field trips, when we had to have a minimum number of armed guards per certain number of students. (Don't ask me what the equation is). In those cases the school would check out beat up M1 Carbines from the town's civil guard station. When I was 16 I volunteered for the civil guard and was trained on a Mauser converted to .308, and I carried it around when needed to patrol large public events in the town.

From what I've heard, the only sure way to get a permit is to live in the "territories" and have served in the military. If I decide to return to Israel I won't be eligible to own a firearm, because I didn't serve and I damn well won't be living in a prison I built myself. (have you seen some of the so called "settlements"? Some of them have to have 20ft electric fences and more soldiers guarding them than residents living in the town.)

I've also read that there are separate permits for rifles and handguns, and that each firearm must be listed on the respective permit.

Remember that even though firearms are not scary to Israelis, Israel has no constitution and no RKBA. Israel was founded by socialists, and they still have major influence in Israeli politics. Israel has universal healthcare, large welfare programs, and heavy taxes. Not the best place to live for the die-hard conservatives
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Old 04-27-2009, 3:27 PM
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Interesting stuff, thanks for all the responses guys (Especially CCWFacts and Satex).

1. So if I'm getting this right: a permit is required to carry a weapon, but a permit is next to impossible to get without military service. Is this correct?

2. For permit purposes, is there a distinction between Open and Concealed carry? Between loaded and unloaded carry?

3. Are there any statistics on how many teachers, school employees, etc. have such permits?

4. Basically, MSNBC and USAToday were speaking out of their excretory orifices when they claimed that "...in Israel, teachers are not allowed to carry weapons in the school." But Frontsight is also exaggerating when they claim that "After long searching and extensive research, Israel adopted the decision to require that all teachers and all parent aides be armed with a semi-automatic handgun"
Certainly there are recent examples of armed teachers in Israel stopping shooters like this story which is also discussed here as well as here, and here. Another article here discusses more examples.

After all that though, I am still left wondering how common the practice really is? Is it really encouraged? How so?

Thanks guys,
-Pete
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Old 04-27-2009, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidoff View Post
I lived in Israel from 1990 to 2000, and attended 2nd through 10th grade in Israeli schools...
Thanks Davidoff, that is alot of good enlightening info. Certainly it has been said many times that Israel does not have a gun culture like countries such as the US, Finland, Switzerland, Austria and others do. Nevertheless it is very interesting for me to look at a policy like arming teachers or allowing teachers to go armed as a defense against active shooter scenarios. I have heard it mentioned many times in recent years, but I am wondering what the truth of the matter is.

Thanks for sharing your own experiences. Please keep em coming.
-Pete
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Old 04-27-2009, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
1. So if I'm getting this right: a permit is required to carry a weapon, but a permit is next to impossible to get without military service. Is this correct?
That's my understanding. No military service = basically no chance of owning a gun there. I don't think there's a distinction between a permit to carry vs. a permit to possess in most cases.

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Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
2. For permit purposes, is there a distinction between Open and Concealed carry?
No, that's an American issue. I don't think there's any distinction between the two there.

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Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
Between loaded and unloaded carry?
No, that's a bizarro California issue. It is unfortunate that people in this state are starting to think of UOC as something that might even exist somewhere outside of here. It doesn't; it's a California-specific legal hack to get work around a bizarro California law. I hope that UOC is soon enough a forgotten footnote.

But note, handguns there are carried "Israeli style", meaning a loaded mag and an empty chamber. Israelis will be alarmed if they see a gun carried in our normal style, with a round in the chamber, especially "cocked and locked" style.

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3. Are there any statistics on how many teachers, school employees, etc. have such permits?
I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by sb_pete View Post
After all that though, I am still left wondering how common the practice really is? Is it really encouraged? How so?
I don't know. All I know is that Israel was founded by Socialists and they hate guns like all other Socialists and they do not have any kind of RKBA or gun rights movement there. Note also that there is no hunting culture there, because hunting is absolutely forbidden by Jewish law. It's not a gunlover's paradise. Their gun laws suck. Their neighboring countries probably have better gun laws than Israel does.
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Old 04-27-2009, 7:48 PM
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Think what would happen if you saw this at your local California store?
Ask for phone numbers? :-)
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:05 PM
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Did anyone post this link yet? Not sure how up to date it is with the recent changes. It's possible to own a gun if you didn't serve in the military, but only if you fall into one of the other categories of eligible individuals.

From what I've seen, there's not a lot of difference between open and concealed carry when someone has a handgun. Folks with handguns may have them casually tucked under a shirt or just let the grip hang out, and folks who are more concerned about carrying concealed aren't noticeable for obvious reasons. Most of the firearms you see are M16s carried by reservists, which to my understanding are to be kept unloaded in public unless needed, but if someone is authorized to carry a handgun it can be loaded.

I also met Israelis who were afraid of guns, even some who were issued them. One girl told me she was scared of her M16 and put he mags on the other side of the room from it, as though the damn thing would load and fire itself.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:29 PM
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Did anyone post this link yet? Not sure how up to date it is with the recent changes. It's possible to own a gun if you didn't serve in the military, but only if you fall into one of the other categories of eligible individuals.
Good link. As you can see there, it's very restrictive. It sure is not a gun-friendly country. I guess I remembered correctly about bus drivers often being armed; they are in a special category (makes sense).

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From what I've seen, there's not a lot of difference between open and concealed carry when someone has a handgun. Folks with handguns may have them casually tucked under a shirt or just let the grip hang out,
That's what I've seen there. I think there's no distinction made.

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Most of the firearms you see are M16s carried by reservists, which to my understanding are to be kept unloaded in public unless needed
That's what it looks like. Most of the M16s being carried around don't have mags. I also have a feeling the M16s are rattly old things, assigned to reserve units and women (women aren't front-line soldiers there). Israel has a new assault rifle, the TAR-21, which I guess is what the real front-line soldiers would be using today.

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I also met Israelis who were afraid of guns, even some who were issued them. One girl told me she was scared of her M16 and put he mags on the other side of the room from it, as though the damn thing would load and fire itself.
I'm not surprised. Few of the Israelis I know know anything about guns, even after their army service. It holds little interest for most Israelis, from what I can tell.

The only reason why a lot of gun forum people think Israel is a land of guns is because of all these pictures of reservists carrying M16s around, but that means very little. I assume the only reason they do that is because the country is so small, if there were an attack, the reservists might need to go straight from home to their unit, without enough time to stop by the base. In the US, that doesn't apply; if they mobilize the reserves here, they have plenty of time to all go to the base and get equipped there.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:33 PM
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Did anyone post this link yet? Not sure how up to date it is with the recent changes. It's possible to own a gun if you didn't serve in the military, but only if you fall into one of the other categories of eligible individuals.

From what I've seen, there's not a lot of difference between open and concealed carry when someone has a handgun. Folks with handguns may have them casually tucked under a shirt or just let the grip hang out, and folks who are more concerned about carrying concealed aren't noticeable for obvious reasons. Most of the firearms you see are M16s carried by reservists, which to my understanding are to be kept unloaded in public unless needed, but if someone is authorized to carry a handgun it can be loaded.

I also met Israelis who were afraid of guns, even some who were issued them. One girl told me she was scared of her M16 and put he mags on the other side of the room from it, as though the damn thing would load and fire itself.

Very few who haven't served. It's compulsory for 18 year olds, 2 years service for women and 3 years for men IIRC. Also males are reserves until age 40 or 45 and females to age 25 or first pregnancy, which ever comes first. The only real sure exemption is for religious reasons, Haredi are exempted but most other sub groups of Judaism serve. Even Druse serve in the military. In fact I believe that Davidoff would have to serve if he returned to take up residence in Israel as he left before his compulsory service was due.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:41 PM
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Very few who haven't served. It's compulsory for 18 year olds, 2 years service for women and 3 years for men IIRC.
Yes, I think that's right. As you say, almost everyone (non-Haredi Jewish) who grows up there and stays there must serve. Some non-Jews also serve.

However, there are lots of people who left before their mandatory service, or people who made Aliyah when they were older, who haven't served, and basically can't own a gun there.

Their gun laws suck.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:11 AM
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Yes, I think that's right. As you say, almost everyone (non-Haredi Jewish) who grows up there and stays there must serve. Some non-Jews also serve.

However, there are lots of people who left before their mandatory service, or people who made Aliyah when they were older, who haven't served, and basically can't own a gun there.

Their gun laws suck.
Yep, it's funny, the government WANTS people to make Aliyah but the society treats them as second class once they arrive. If they even let you, I couldn't live there even if I wanted because as a Christian I'm stripped of my right of return.
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Old 04-28-2009, 8:12 AM
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In fact I believe that Davidoff would have to serve if he returned to take up residence in Israel as he left before his compulsory service was due.
If I do decide to return to Israel right now I will have to serve, but that will not be the case after March of next year when I turn 26. In fact, if I even go back to visit right now I have to clear it with the Israeli consulate to make sure I don't get drafted upon landing at Ben-Gurion.

Last edited by Davidoff; 04-28-2009 at 8:27 AM..
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Old 04-28-2009, 8:27 AM
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^ At least one perk of being drafted there would be spending time with the women. It's no accident that this year's SI swimsuit edition cover girl was Israeli.
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Old 04-28-2009, 8:32 AM
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Ah, yes. It was a nice place to live as a teenager, there are plenty of beautiful Jewish girls. My friend went to Israel on a birthright program last year and ended up staying an extra month after meeting a nice girl there. I don't think I could ever go back to live there, but I can't wait to go visit.
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Old 04-28-2009, 8:51 AM
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Yep, it's funny, the government WANTS people to make Aliyah but the society treats them as second class once they arrive.
Yeah, that's what I concluded. They claim they want me to go there (they even have people who do "sales" for this concept) but if I do go there, the government treats me as a second-class citizen because I never served, and I'm looked down on because I'm an American? Oh and I lose all my gun rights, and gain all the "joy" of living in a Socialist system. Thanks but no thanks.
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