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  #81  
Old 05-22-2009, 7:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obeygiant View Post
Turbinator,

Thank you for taking the time to scan this and make a fillable form. I was going to attempt the exact same thing but I lost my copies of the form the last time I moved. I know it can be a hassle getting all of the fields correct so thank you again for the nice job you did on this. I will be sending mine in as well and will let you know when I get a response.
Well, after some serious procrastination on my part, the form is in the mail. Turbinator, thank you again for putting this together and making it available to everyone.
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  #82  
Old 05-22-2009, 9:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obeygiant View Post
Well, after some serious procrastination on my part, the form is in the mail. Turbinator, thank you again for putting this together and making it available to everyone.
You're welcome. Guess who else has procrastinated... ME. I will need to get my form in the mail too hah hah

Turby
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  #83  
Old 05-22-2009, 11:03 AM
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I see, let other people be the guinea pigs
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  #84  
Old 05-23-2009, 1:03 PM
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18 days from it going in the mail box to in my hands!

Thanks Turby!
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  #85  
Old 05-23-2009, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbinator View Post
You're welcome. Guess who else has procrastinated... ME. I will need to get my form in the mail too hah hah

Turby
hahahah... are you serious? wow.. i guess as they say, the shoe makers son walks bare foot....
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  #86  
Old 05-24-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
I see, let other people be the guinea pigs
Doh! My cover is blown!

Turby
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  #87  
Old 05-24-2009, 11:03 AM
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yes, i would like to extend my thanks to turbinator also. i sent my for out last weekend and they charged my card last week. i'm hoping to have my 03ffl in the mail next week.
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  #88  
Old 05-26-2009, 3:30 PM
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anyone know how long it takes after they charge your card to receive your C&R?
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  #89  
Old 05-26-2009, 3:53 PM
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I say about a month, since that's how long it took them to mail mine.
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  #90  
Old 05-26-2009, 4:02 PM
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a month? WOW!

i don't know why i'm surprised....
i should know by now...
the government is quick to take from you if you owe them.
but they take their sweet ***** time giving you what is rightfully yours.
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  #91  
Old 05-26-2009, 5:45 PM
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I had mine in my hands 18 days from when I sent it in. Counting weekends even.
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  #92  
Old 05-29-2009, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inoxmark View Post
Don't know if any licenses have been issued to the PDF applicants yet, but they seem to charge credit cards almost immediately upon receipt of the application, good sign hopefully!
The ATF accepted my payment and approved the application, but informed my that they needed the application filled out on the green form and sent in before they would issue the license. I guess my app just got handled by some idiot going by the book.

Last edited by jchag1718; 05-29-2009 at 1:30 PM..
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  #93  
Old 05-29-2009, 5:02 PM
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or there were some idiots accepting a non-standardized form prior to you...
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  #94  
Old 05-31-2009, 5:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchag1718 View Post
The ATF accepted my payment and approved the application, but informed my that they needed the application filled out on the green form and sent in before they would issue the license. I guess my app just got handled by some idiot going by the book.
Do you need a green form? I have an extra. It takes them about a month to send you one.

Sorry to hear this - this worries me because if they continue this "policy" then the PDF form isn't going to be all that useful.

Any chance you could call them and figure out what the deal is?

Turby
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  #95  
Old 05-31-2009, 2:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbinator View Post
Do you need a green form? I have an extra. It takes them about a month to send you one.

Sorry to hear this - this worries me because if they continue this "policy" then the PDF form isn't going to be all that useful.

Any chance you could call them and figure out what the deal is?

Turby
I received my green form about a week after I mailed the Pdf in. I'm not sure

what the problem is. The agent just said that they were getting a ton of the

Pdf's. I suspect that big brother doesn't like the average Joe taking matters

into his own hands. Thanks Turby.
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  #96  
Old 06-01-2009, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbinator View Post
Do you need a green form? I have an extra. It takes them about a month to send you one.

Sorry to hear this - this worries me because if they continue this "policy" then the PDF form isn't going to be all that useful.

Any chance you could call them and figure out what the deal is?

Turby
I just got off the phone with the ATF and here's the explanation they gave

me. The forms that you order online are distributed by a contractor. Imagine

that, another gov't contract. The agent admitted that the contractor was

running behind on distributing the forms, but if they accept the PDF then the

contractor doesn't get paid or is getting paid for doing nothing. Whichever

way you look at it. The agent also admitted that they didn't like people

taking matters into their own hands. So your time and effort were wasted on

a gov't contract. That figures. But I appreciate your time as well as others.

Sorry it had to end like this. Thanks Turby
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  #97  
Old 06-01-2009, 10:58 AM
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Thats some BS. Most forms on the ATF site that you can order online have a PDF version listed right on the site. So, does that mean that only some of them are distributed by a contractor.

I know that the newest version of the Form 1 hasn't been PDF'ed by ATF, but an Arfcommer scanned the form and PDF'ed it, and it has worked fine for plenty of people nationwide.


If the C&R app was double-sided printed on green paper, would there be any noticable difference in the original and a PDF'ed version, except that the PDF would be typed and the original probably hand written?

If this BS continues, it may be worth a call to you local congressman and see what they can find out. AFAIK that when people have delays with the NFA branch that a call from a congressman seems to be able to crack a whip at the examiners.
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  #98  
Old 06-01-2009, 2:12 PM
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thats BS, anyone know what "green" the form is? someone may have it handy in their paper stocks.

-bb
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  #99  
Old 06-01-2009, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbinator View Post
Do you need a green form? I have an extra. It takes them about a month to send you one.

Sorry to hear this - this worries me because if they continue this "policy" then the PDF form isn't going to be all that useful.

Any chance you could call them and figure out what the deal is?

Turby
Time out!!! This is crazy. I received my license in the mail today. It's obvious that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. After all this BS; I needed to fill out the green form; the pdf isn't accepted and blah, blah, blah; the stupid thing came in the mail today. So my license was in the mail by the time they contacted me to say the pdf was invalid and they needed the green copy. But I guess that's uncle sam at his best, wasting our hard earned tax dollars running around in circles.
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  #100  
Old 06-01-2009, 8:08 PM
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I think the story about the gov't contractor is TRUE. I ordered the green forms twice - once to get the forms initially; a 2nd time to get the forms again because I thought they forgot about me, and after 1 month of waiting, I gave up and ordered the forms again. I now have 4 sets of green forms (I ordered 2 each time).

Anyway, both sends had different origination addresses, and different address labels. Very interesting. It was pretty easy to figure out that the gov't isn't sending out these forms, someone else is, for them.

Now, is it BS that they won't accept the forms because they have the contractor working the forms? I personally think so, but since JCHAG got his C&R license, let's keep sending in the forms for now and see how the BATFE continues to manage the situation.

No worries on the confusion - good to hear the latest from the folks who are using the form, and I'm glad it worked out for JCHAG.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone else on the C&R license application process.

Turby
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  #101  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:32 AM
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just sent mine in... so now the waiting game
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  #102  
Old 06-03-2009, 3:56 PM
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Took 2 freaking months for me to even get my forms in the mail. Sending off today finally. In another 2 months I'll have the license.
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  #103  
Old 06-04-2009, 5:19 AM
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Hi folks,

I found this thread doing a search for C&R wait times.
Let me tell you my tale. First, I'm on the other coast. (PA).
I ordered the app online on 2-11.
Got impatient/worried and ordered second set 3-30.
Received Set#1, 4-27. (10 weeks)
Mailed 4-29.
Card charged 5-3.
Received Set#2, 5-22. (7 weeks)
Today is one week short of a 4 month journey and I still do not have the license.

ETA:
I just noticed this on the ATF site:
http://www.atf.gov/press/2009press/0...tion-forms.htm

Quote:
May 29, 2009

Unauthorized Versions of ATF Application Forms

The Federal Firearms Licensing Center (FFLC) is receiving unauthorized versions ATF Form 7CR, Application for Federal Firearms License (Collector of Curio and Relics) from curio/relic firearms collector applicants.

Any FFL applications submitted on other than officially approved ATF forms will not be accepted for processing by the FFLC. The unauthorized forms have been modified from the official ATF version and made available to applicants on public Internet sites without the express permission of ATF.

FFL applications on forms other than those officially approved and issued by ATF will be returned with instructions on how to order official application forms from ATF’s Distribution Center (www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm).

Please contact the FFLC at 304-616-4600 with any questions about this policy.
ETA #2: Received license 3 days short of 4 months (order app to Lic. in hand)

Last edited by kadar; 06-12-2009 at 6:17 AM..
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  #104  
Old 06-04-2009, 11:07 AM
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Lame!!

Ok, I guess that settles it. The form is officially a no go for now.

Thanks, Kadar, for the followup.

Thanks everyone for the interest, congrats to those who received their C&R FFL's via the PDF, and for the rest of us, it's back to the 1 month wait to get the darn green forms.

Any suggestions as to how we get the BATFE to accept the PDF's?

We're famous!



Turby

Last edited by Turbinator; 06-04-2009 at 11:14 AM..
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  #105  
Old 06-04-2009, 1:47 PM
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Damn...
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  #106  
Old 06-04-2009, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadar View Post
Hi folks,

I found this thread doing a search for C&R wait times.
Let me tell you my tale. First, I'm on the other coast. (PA).
I ordered the app online on 2-11.
Got impatient/worried and ordered second set 3-30.
Received Set#1, 4-27. (10 weeks)
Mailed 4-29.
Card charged 5-3.
Received Set#2, 5-22. (7 weeks)
Today is one week short of a 4 month journey and I still do not have the license.

ETA:
I just noticed this on the ATF site:
http://www.atf.gov/press/2009press/0...tion-forms.htm
Afternoon to ya from CA!! Just an FYI, you may want to go ahead and call the BATF phone number that came with your packet, or can be found online. I waited for my license for 3 months or so, finally get impatient and called. Spoke with a nice young lady on the other line who informed me that all was ok, and she was sorry it wasnt sent out. She told me that a note will be passed and I should be receiving my card by 7 days. 5 days after the call the license showed up at my door step.

G/L
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  #107  
Old 06-04-2009, 8:18 PM
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I am actually an Ohio resident but joined here to thank Turbinator and everyone else at Calguns for the work you are doing.

<mini rant on>
If I was living in Cal I would probably just give up and turn my guns in, or move. I don't know how you guys deal with the crap you have to deal with on a daily basis. Thanks for putting up the good fight and continuing to protect your rights. I commend you for it.
</mini rant off>

Anyway, I mailed in the now "bogus" PDF form over a week ago. ATF saw fit to hit my credit card today for $30, but given the posts immediately previous to mine I fully expect the form to be rejected. Hopefully the greenies that I ordered a month ago will be here soon so I can get this straightened out.

The primary purpose for my post is to share some information. It took only a little bit of internet sleuthing to figure out that this is the contractor responsible for mailing out the forms:

http://www.socent.org/

They are an outsourcing fulfillment center. They apparently have a number of printing centers nationwide which is why when you get your greenies they could come from a variety of return addresses.

Given their large distribution network, they must be printing on commonly available paper. So whenever I get my greenies in hand assuming there are no special watermarks (which I doubt) I will post the pantone color number, hammeril order number, color to say when you walk into Kinko's, or whatever other information I have about this form, it's color, it's paper weight, and the paper supplier. With paper in your hand it is not hard to figure out what it is and where it came from and with simple phone call you could get reams of it.


If you have contacts over at Socent, or work at Socent, please post any information you have which will not result in your termination, or PM a board elder or moderator.

To be clear, after reading the ATF letter I do not support, condone, or recommend anyone sending in anything to the ATF which is not on an officially received ATF GREEN form from the contractor of their choosing. I am a law abiding citizen and so are you.

Last edited by fiver; 06-04-2009 at 8:21 PM..
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  #108  
Old 06-04-2009, 10:28 PM
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Hi Fiver, (wow, a pun!)

Nice to see you logging in from Ohio! Anyway, I don't think it's specifically "illegal" to use the non-ATF green form, but they appear to have retained the right to accept or reject whatever forms and applications they so desire. So, I don't think any of us would face criminal charges, per se, for sending in the PDF form printed out on white paper. We'll just get the dreaded rejection letter and instructions how to go get the green forms.

Socent.. yes. My envelope says SOC Enterprises, out of Hyattsville, MD. I also have another envelope from the "ATF Distribution Center" out of Springfield, VA. So, yes, they are spread around the country, I guess.

I'm not sure these guys print up the forms? I'm guessing that they simply have the forms and send them out upon request? Or are they an actual printing house as well?

Note that the C&R app is not simply printed on 8.5x11 paper - it is slightly larger, and is perforated to allow one to tear off pages from the packet. However, I don't know if the ATF would know if the forms were self printed on this green paper (once we figure out the exact color and weight) or if the forms were typed in by hand on a typewriter (which is acceptable).

By the way, there are no special watermarks on the green forms. I have a set right here (the set I scanned) and they don't have watermarks.

But do we really want to buy reams of this green paper? The intent is to bring the C&R app to every enthusiast quickly and easily, without the need to do anything special. I appreciate the detective work and the thought process, but I was really hoping that a free and widely distributed PDF form could take the place of extra work involved in ordering the forms or having to go out and get special paper.

At any rate, I welcome more inputs and ideas. Maybe we approach the BATFE as an organized group and ask what it would take to get them to allow the PDF to be used?

Turby
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  #109  
Old 06-04-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iffy View Post
Afternoon to ya from CA!! Just an FYI, you may want to go ahead and call the BATF phone number that came with your packet, or can be found online. I waited for my license for 3 months or so, finally get impatient and called. Spoke with a nice young lady on the other line who informed me that all was ok, and she was sorry it wasnt sent out. She told me that a note will be passed and I should be receiving my card by 7 days. 5 days after the call the license showed up at my door step.

G/L
That's good to hear, but the only problem I see here is that you submitted your app using the "correct" green forms, right? We're trying to figure out if the ATF will accept apps that are not on their specific forms. We're trying to get around the whole "waiting for my app to show up" sort of thing. Thanks for the feedback though, this will certainly help folks who have submitted using the standard green forms.

Turby
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  #110  
Old 06-04-2009, 10:57 PM
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actually, i was just responding for Kadar specifically. he said he got his forms in i believe? at least thats how i take it from his post? just wanted to let him know one of the options he has if he wants to do a check up.

Edit:: yes, i did send my paper work in with the right forms, and i did it last year around June? i believe. they charge the card pretty quickly and without restraint, but then the stumble and fumble a bit sometimes. ive heard people clearing a C&R in 30 days from start to finish, and some waiting for 4+ months. whatever the case may be, make sure your bank account can handle a C&R, they arent cheap hehehehehe....

Last edited by Iffy; 06-04-2009 at 11:00 PM..
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  #111  
Old 06-05-2009, 4:33 PM
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Sent my copies of the PDF in before a trip overseas. The charge hit my card on the 25th, so I'm not sure if I'm gonna get these returned or not. I still am looking for my green forms that I already had filled out and have since misplaced. I'd be interested to see if I might be one of the last ones to either get the license with these forms, or one of the first ones rejected. haha
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  #112  
Old 06-05-2009, 7:15 PM
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Sent PDF application on May 5, CC charged on May 10, no license and no contact from ATF so far... keeping my fingers crossed. Still sitting on my green forms I got few days after I mailed my application
Anyone other than amurphy and jchag1718 got their license?
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  #113  
Old 06-05-2009, 10:14 PM
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Yeah, I finally found my green forms in the desk. Wondering if I should just go ahead and mail them in anyway. But also wondering if I do that if they are gonna get confused, or double charge me, or just deny it altogether. hmmmm....
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  #114  
Old 06-06-2009, 8:36 AM
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There may be others not on Calguns who have sent in the form and have gotten their licenses before the ATF put a stop to this. Perhaps some of them will join Calguns and post their results.

Turby
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  #115  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:48 AM
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I guess we'll see. I sent my PDF forms in last Monday (6/1) and the charge just hit today (6/8). will be interesting to see what happens.

Worst part about this is that the PDF form wouldn't be needed if they did a better job of just sending out the form. It's nearing 2 months since I requested and still no green form.
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  #116  
Old 06-08-2009, 5:55 PM
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Update on my application:
Received a large tyvek envelope from BATFE with a cover letter and one green application form. The letter stated that my original application will not be processed because it wasn't on the approved form. I am to complete attached green form and mail it to a particular person in a licensing center in WV. The form already had my file # filled in.
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  #117  
Old 06-08-2009, 6:43 PM
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Unhappy Ditto with Inoxmark

Sent the "white sheet" in and received the exact same response. They accepted payment though.....I feel so rejected.
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  #118  
Old 06-08-2009, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Inoxmark View Post
Update on my application:
Received a large tyvek envelope from BATFE with a cover letter and one green application form. The letter stated that my original application will not be processed because it wasn't on the approved form. I am to complete attached green form and mail it to a particular person in a licensing center in WV. The form already had my file # filled in.
When exactly did you originally send in your forms? I just said to hell with it and mailed my green forms in on Saturday with a written letter.
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  #119  
Old 06-10-2009, 8:34 AM
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joefrank64k joefrank64k is offline
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Here's another option that worked for me...

About a month ago, I ended up calling my local ATF office (in my case Glendale) and asked if they had any CR FFL apps that I could pick up in person.

The SA on the phone said that he would save me the trouble and mail one out. I said that he didn't need to bother; I could just order it through the web site, but he said it would be no problem because it usually takes a long time before you get your forms from the web (as others have found out).

I got the app in the mail in about a week. I mailed it out within a day or two and they have already charged my CC. I'll update when I get my FFL in hand.

YMMV of course...
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  #120  
Old 06-10-2009, 8:53 AM
Sean Vax Sean Vax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefrank64k View Post
Here's another option that worked for me...

About a month ago, I ended up calling my local ATF office (in my case Glendale) and asked if they had any CR FFL apps that I could pick up in person.

The SA on the phone said that he would save me the trouble and mail one out. I said that he didn't need to bother; I could just order it through the web site, but he said it would be no problem because it usually takes a long time before you get your forms from the web (as others have found out).

I got the app in the mail in about a week. I mailed it out within a day or two and they have already charged my CC. I'll update when I get my FFL in hand.

YMMV of course...
I'm going to find the number for the office nearest to my location, (most likely Glendale) and see if they will do the same thing. Do you know where I can locate this information on their website?
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