Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > California handguns
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 04-13-2009, 5:42 AM
RomanDad's Avatar
RomanDad RomanDad is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 92 acres of free Kentuckiana
Posts: 3,482
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatsuosan1964 View Post
Less stopping power but more lethal? If it's lethal meaning that you're dead, don't you stop?
Cancer's pretty lethal..... But it doesnt stop you instantly.

Frangible ammo has its uses. If youre likely to be in a situation where collateral damage is an issue (Airplanes, CQB in occupied homes, HOSTAGE RESCUE, etc) you definitely DONT want your bullets ripping through the target and into friendlies. The bigger the gun, the more an issue it becomes....
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-13-2009, 8:58 AM
AJD AJD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: So. Ca
Posts: 570
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Anyone considering using a frangible round like the Glaser safety slug etc. should read the entire article in the following link.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:27 AM
madmike's Avatar
madmike madmike is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Santa Rosa
Posts: 460
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I've always followed the advice: "buy the cheapest hollow point ammo from a major manufacturer, that will feed 100% reliably in your gun". They all work about the same, and you need as much practice as you can get.
One shot stops, are a function of luck.

-madmike.
__________________
-madmike.

I would like to say something profound here...
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-13-2009, 11:01 AM
7x57's Avatar
7x57 7x57 is offline
Calguns Addict
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 5,161
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD View Post
Anyone considering using a frangible round like the Glaser safety slug etc. should read the entire article in the following link.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm
The only pre-fragmented round I really like is somewhere in the neighborhood of an ounce of double-ought buck, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.

7x57
__________________


What do you need guns for if you are going to send your children, seven hours a day, 180 days a year to government schools? What do you need the guns for at that point?-- R. C. Sproul, Jr. (unconfirmed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulgron View Post
I know every chance I get I'm going to accuse 7x57 of being a shill for LCAV. Because I can.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-13-2009, 11:34 AM
tonelar's Avatar
tonelar tonelar is offline
Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Franpsycho
Posts: 5,983
iTrader: 114 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saigon1965 View Post
Nothing at all - Tales started that these were cop killers back in early 90's - The lores were that these went thru body armor - Winchester pulled them and in doing so added to the FUD - They are still being produce - Now called SXT -
Wrong... the Bullets that were dubbed cop killer bullets were the Tungsten bullets manufactured to give 9mm better performance against armored targets. These were introduced in the early 70's and the press didn't even learn about them for over 10 years. Since tungsten (being harder than steel) would wear out the rifling of your fave 9mm handgun pronto so they mfg'd it .002-.003 undersize and made up the rest of its diameter by coating it in teflon. The teflon was used to protect the barrel's rifling, NOT to penetrate anything. You'll be amazed at how many "supposed" experienced shooters believe the teflon defeats the body armour by sliding through the weave in bullet proof fabric. The penetration came from the 9mm velocity and the extreme hardness of the tungsten projectile.

These were reported in the press nationwide in a FUD campaign that basically let the whole world in on the fact that cops routinely wore body armour. Less intelligent viewers attributed the armor piercing rounds' ability to their teflon coating.

More cops were killed by the knowledge disseminated by our friends in the press than by these bullets themselves (which were only available to LE in the first place). Badguys adjusted their tactics and when most LE shootings were limited to body shots previously, the instance of head shots did increase after the intro of these 9mm rounds.

BLACK TALON were dubbed "Killer Bullets" in the 90's. They do not penetrate body armor, but various criminal rights activists got their panties in a bunch because the idea of a LEO using rounds that would stop a perp dead in their tracks was just too non-PC. People see the black talon and assume they are the "teflon coated" bullets they heard of over a decade before...

Sorry this is off topic, but I felt like alot of misinformation was being laid down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatsuosan1964 View Post
Less stopping power but more lethal? If it's lethal meaning that you're dead, don't you stop?
Glasers are notorious for under-pentrating.

Glaser Safety Slugs can cause alot of internal bleeding. However just cause you're bleeding inside from a gut shot... doesn't mean you're going to drop dead immediately. People have been known to lose lots of blood and still not go into shock for hours. On the other hand, people have been rushed to the ERs with jhp bullets in them and never made into surgery (they just bleed out that rapidly).
__________________

Last edited by tonelar; 04-13-2009 at 4:06 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-13-2009, 3:14 PM
aplinker's Avatar
aplinker aplinker is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West LA
Posts: 16,822
iTrader: 92 / 100%
Default

This thread has been tremendously entertaining.
__________________

Google Map of OLL Dealers

List of CA-friendly Manufacturers, Dealers, Middlemen, and Magazine rebuild kit dealers
Click me-->So you're a n00b and you want to build an AR? <--Click me
This post is based on actual events. Some facts may be altered for dramatic purposes. All posts are pure opinion. All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-13-2009, 3:30 PM
Black Majik's Avatar
Black Majik Black Majik is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Orange County
Posts: 9,390
iTrader: 63 / 100%
Default

Teflon bullets > shredding bullets

Ya'know... to penetrate bullet proof vests and all...
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-13-2009, 3:54 PM
tonelar's Avatar
tonelar tonelar is offline
Dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Franpsycho
Posts: 5,983
iTrader: 114 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by uclaplinker View Post
This thread has been tremendously entertaining.
my initial response was not to even read this thread...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 04-13-2009, 4:43 PM
Rogue187 Rogue187 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind Enemy Lines
Posts: 686
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

Magsafe's are along the lines of the Glaser Safety Slugs..
I use Magsafe's exclusively..in all my defensive friearms..
It's expensive but so far I haven't had to use them in defensive situtations.
But YMMV
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 04-13-2009, 4:46 PM
B Strong B Strong is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: S.F. Bay Area.
Posts: 6,370
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonelar View Post
Wrong... the Bullets that were dubbed cop killer bullets were the Tungsten bullets manufactured to give 9mm better performance against armored targets. These were introduced in the early 70's and the press didn't even learn about them for over 10 years. Since tungsten (being harder than steel) would wear out the rifling of your fave 9mm handgun pronto so they mfg'd it .002-.003 undersize and made up the rest of its diameter by coating it in teflon. The teflon was used to protect the barrel's rifling, NOT to penetrate anything. You'll be amazed at how many "supposed" experienced shooters believe the teflon defeats the body armour by sliding through the weave in bullet proof fabric. The penetration came from the 9mm velocity and the extreme hardness of the tungsten projectile.

These were reported in the press nationwide in a FUD campaign that basically let the whole world in on the fact that cops routinely wore body armour. Less intelligent viewers attributed the armor piercing rounds' ability to their teflon coating.

More cops were killed by the knowledge disseminated by our friends in the press than by these bullets themselves (which were only available to LE in the first place). Badguys adjusted their tactics and when most LE shootings were limited to body shots previously, the instance of head shots did increase after the intro of these 9mm rounds.


BLACK TALON were dubbed "Killer Bullets" in the 90's. They do not penetrate body armor, but various criminal rights activists got their panties in a bunch because the idea of a LEO using rounds that would stop a perp dead in their tracks was just too non-PC. People see the black talon and assume they are the "teflon coated" bullets they heard of over a decade before...

Sorry this is off topic, but I felt like alot of misinformation was being laid down.


Glasers are notorious for under-pentrating.

Glaser Safety Slugs can cause alot of internal bleeding. However just cause you're bleeding inside from a gut shot... doesn't mean you're going to drop dead immediately. People have been known to lose lots of blood and still not go into shock for hours. On the other hand, people have been rushed to the ERs with jhp bullets in them and never made into surgery (they just bleed out that rapidly).
Meet the politician that used NBC to break the news about KTW, Mario Biaggi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Biaggi

"Biaggi was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison and fined $500,000 for accepting an illegal gratuity and obstructing justice in 1987. He had accepted free vacations from former Brooklyn Democratic leader Meade Esposito in exchange for using his influence to help a ship-repair company that was a major client of Esposito's insurance agency.[1] The House Ethics Committee recommended that Biaggi be expelled — the most severe of penalties.

In 1988, Biaggi was forced to resign his seat after he was convicted a second time in federal court of 15 felony counts for obstruction of justice and accepting illegal gratuities, stemming from Biaggi's acceptance of bribes in exchange for federal construction contracts in the so-called Wedtech scandal.[2] He was an unsuccessful candidate in 1992 for nomination to the 103rd Congress."
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 04-13-2009, 5:06 PM
Mayhem's Avatar
Mayhem Mayhem is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Peoples Republik of kalifornia
Posts: 193
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

BTW the Black talons do not penetrate Body armor. I've seen and tested that myself with a bunch of guy in the early 90's. we fired a two 9mm and one 45acp talon into an old level IIa vest without a trauma plate. it stopped all three. However it did break the Dummy (not a living dummy) that was wearing the vest.

I have an Old second chance level II vest if anyone wants to do some testing 8)

what Tonelar said about the entire Tungsten bullets was the real issue. I personally have issue with so called "Cop Killer" bullets.

A) Gang bangers and typical criminals typically get what the can for the least amount.... Usually FMJ or casted lead.

B) Typically any bullet doing more then 1800 FPs and nearly all riffle rounds will penetrate a typical bullet proof vest. This includes your grand dads 30-06 he used for hunting.

You know I see allot of reports of what if's, possibilities, and potentiallies concerning frangibles. I have yet to see any proof one way or other of what they can or cannot do outside of some FAA reports and tests after 911.

I'd love to preform some test and reviews my self using typical dry wall (2 layers 4 inches apart), a sheet of raw leather and maybe some ballistic gel. Because in all honesty I only know what the manufacturer claims and what a few peoples test show. I've seen allot of reports of what some one else claims certain bullets can and cannot due but they don't like or give any hard references. I think some of us calgunners should pull our recourses contact people in the industry and see if they will donate materials for testing and run our own test and publish the results with pictures and video. Giving the cal guns community good honest unbiased information.

As far as I know if you hit someone with a glaser without going threw something like 2 layers of drywall first they are screwed. And although it lacks the estimated stopping power of a JHP stopping power is subjective. If you blow an attackers finger off and he hits the ground screaming you have stopped him. If you put a bullet threw his heart and he uses his remaining 3-12 seconds of life to stab you to death you didn't stop him. There are way to many variables in regards to stopping power I've seen bullets rated at 99% one stop shot and I've heard no Handgun bullet can possibly exceed 75% one shot stop. NO Bullet is 100%. There have been people hit with 12ga slugs 00 buck and 50bmg or their axis/Warsaw equivalents and not only survived but continued to fight.

I like to apply the Alaska's DFG's doctrine for bear defense to self defense against people. Once he or she is a threat to you and yours you keep shooting till they stop movin or basically until the stop being a threat.
__________________
Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit!

Smyrna Lodge #532 F.&A.M.

Last edited by Mayhem; 04-13-2009 at 6:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-13-2009, 5:31 PM
M. Sage's Avatar
M. Sage M. Sage is offline
Moderator Emeritus
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 19,760
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
FMJ's ... Defence.
"Dumping energy" doesn't stop attackers. CNS interruptions, blood loss, shock or pain (don't rely on it, though!) do. An FMJ is no different from any other round in that it will keep going until it "runs out of energy". It's just how quickly a round will disperse all its energy.

Disperse it on the way in, like with the overpriced junk ammo, and you get a very shallow wound that may not even reach vitals. Remember, humans are built for taking damage on the front. Most of the good stuff is hidden farther back. Major blood vessels are deep, running back by the spine, which is a prime target in and of itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
MOST JHP's (have to lose 671 characters to post) side.
Depends on shot placement, and how thick your target winds up being. A good HP that penetrates 12"-14" should leave an exit wound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
For Home defense I use blue Glaser safety slugs.
Why? So you don't stop the BG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
For self defense outside the home I use JHP's typically high velocity +P ammo like Cor-bon or buffalo bore.
Again, why? Does your "away from home" gun need +p? From a full-size pistol, +p is typically not needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
I thought the point was not to over penetrate. I would rather have my bullet break up causing secondary wound canals then have it leave the body of the target.
There is no such thing as over-penetration. 100% penetration means better damage, ability to reach multiple "good" targets like hitting heart and ventral aorta and spinal column. Your at-home ammo might do a nice job of shredding the heart (if you're lucky and their extended arms don't cause it to embed in the skin of their chest instead), but someone who wants to kill you bad enough still has a couple of minutes before they have to worry about their loss of blood pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
I have never seen a report ... He managed to kill 1 or 2 FBI officers in the process. This is the big event that started the whole "Stopping power movement"
You never heard of under-penetrating ammo getting someone killed? It happened in 1986, which is when the FBI started taking a close look at terminal ballistics and came up with the 12" minimum. It's not a number they pulled out of their butts:

http://www.people.com/people/archive...093543,00.html

As you say, if a bullet stops near a BG's spine, that's not good enough. It should continue through, and hopefully hit the spine. Had that happened, the fight may have gone differently. The FBI's ammo under-penetrated. More velocity doesn't matter. Handgun ammo is never going to get stretch cavity like rifle ammo does: you just can't sling that much power in a defensive pistol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
While I agree 12-18" of penetration is optimal Less then 12" is far better then nothing at all.
But if 12+ is a choice, why go with something inferior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
It's lack of penetration is why I use it. and I'm not a one bullet type of guy any way. I use different loads for different situations. I tend to lean towards Bigger and Faster. Bigger heavier wider bullets going as fast as they can with as rapid and large an expansion as I can get.

This is one reason I won't use anything smaller then .40 S&W unless I have to.
There's so little difference in diameter that it doesn't matter. .45ACP is heavy and slow, but very good at getting consistent, deep penetration. In fact, heavy and slow pretty much fits the profile for every dangerous game rifle I can think of, too... Go only as light as you need to go to get enough velocity for expansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
I haven't seen anything on Glasers stopping potential being anything less then maybe 5% compared to typical JHP. But then again I find Most stopping power Ratings unreliable and should only be used as a guide.
Strangely, you don't see much info on Glasers at all, aside from "look at the holes it puts in potroast!!!!"

Might be a reason for that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
There is a nice Youtube video that shows a kid getting shot in the chest with a 9mm while wearing a vest. The bullet did not penetrate the vest but it did hurt the kid leaving a massive bruise a welt and a very nasty bleeding laceration. In all honesty it looked like the kid did have the bullet go threw him but it didn't it stopped at the vest. While your right bullet energy alone doesn't do allot when it only delivers it's energy to the surface of the target. But all bullets do penetrate delivering the energy inside the target.
It only matters where inside they deliver energy. And energy going into the target is nowhere near as important as the hole the bullet is making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
Thats not necessarily true. The vitals are confined in small area's of the body such as the chest and head. Of those even a the heart and lungs hit have shown to not stop an attacker. Again look at the FBI Miami shoot out. While hitting vitals adds to the ability to stop it shock and trauma tend also be in this equation and allot of that depends on the cartridge and bullet performance.
And those vitals are often too deep for Glasers to reach...

You trust ammo that won't penetrate deep enough to hit the spine on a body shot, then admit that heart and lung shots don't typically stop an attacker in time.

You might want to think on that for a minute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
Allot of experts would disagree with you on that.
Really? Experts would disagree that defensive handgun calibers cannot be relied on to stop a determined or drugged adversary with one hit (excluding a head shot)? Show me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
.22 to .380 maybe. outside of a glancing hit I have rarely ever heard of anything 9mm or bigger doing this.
Yes, it's rare. My point is that it does happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
This an Opinion or Fact?
An observation based on what I know about marketing and human nature.

"Hey look at this car. It's expensive, so it must be really well-built."

Two years later, their BMW is falling apart...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
I assume they are so expensive because they are allot harder to make. lead cast is usually the cheapest fallowed by copper wash, then Full metal jacket then hallow points then specialty rounds like glasers. They take more work and require more components one would logically assume that they are more expensive,
I'm not exactly an expert, and I've never manufactured bullets, but... the manufacturing experience I do have tells me that it wouldn't be that hard to form the jacket most of the way, pour shot in, cap it with the little plastic ball and then crimp the nose over. Unless they're too lazy/cheap to invest money to make money, it's all done by machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
To me this is just a Hostile biased opinion. There are for to many variables in a self defense or home defense situation to be that narrow minded.
It's narrow minded to come face to face with the fact that collateral damage is a real possibility in any shootout? Funny, I kind of thought that was pretty open-minded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
I would take a .38 .357 .40 .44 or .45 with glasers any day of the weak over some super anemic round like a .22 .25 .380 ect. So this something is even better then better then nothing.
I'm not a fan of .22 or .25 for self-defense, but they're better than nothing. As far as .380 goes... give me a good .380 loaded with good quality ammo, and it'll out-perform a 9mm fed with Glasers in a gunfight. It might be lacking capacity and accuracy, but face-to-face, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Why? Because it'll penetrate enough to stop an assailant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
Personally I would rather have to put a second round in an attacker then take the risk of putting a round into one of my kids because the firearm went off in a struggle or I took a hit first (gun knife bat fist ect), Or I just plainly missed for whatever reason.
The fewer rounds fired, the less chance you'll have to bury a family member. Remember, the BG isn't just going to stand there and take it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
Again Something is better then nothing and allot of us would prefer not to take chances with our children's lives because a bad circumstance or our screw up.
I'm not going to take chances with my life or my wife's life. When we have kids, I won't take chances with theirs, either. It'll be HP or even FMJ ammo in my sidearms, but never pre-fragmented stuff.

Now, if I seem upset about this subject, it's just that I'm sick of seeing people risk their safety on ammo that, if you research it, does not perform up to the task intended. I hate seeing lower-performing garbage passed off as being the "golden BB". And I'm tired of people skipping over doing research on a subject and then proclaiming that they've found the end-all be-all solution. It must be good, cause it seems like it'd work great. Just check out the advertising copy....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
DRT™ lead-free frangible...

Has anyone tried this stuff?
It's designed for shooting steel targets at close range (no splash-back). Then someone saw RBCD and Glaser and how they were ripping people off left and right and had a brilliant marketing idea.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadbolt View Post
"We're here to take your land for your safety"

"My Safety?" *click* "There, that was my safety"
http://www.huntfishadventures.com/images/nra.gifNRA Member
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-13-2009, 6:00 PM
Mayhem's Avatar
Mayhem Mayhem is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Peoples Republik of kalifornia
Posts: 193
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

collateral damage Is not something I'm worried about. I can live with a bullet or two threw my big screen TV (Some times that thought brings a smile to my face) It's sending a bullet into one of my kids rooms threw a wall that scares me. Not to tute my own horn but I'm good damn good with a firearm, But In my opinion that is not enough by itself when it comes to my children's safety.

I understand your points M. Sage and I agree with allot of them, But I also disagree or have a different opinion on a few points. I by no means advocate using frangibles outside the home. and when you do use them inside the home one should understand what they are loosing in exchange for the "safety" of using glaser safety slugs or other frangible. Read my post above this which I was in the process of editing when my 2 your old hit the power button. ( I have to go back and finish it).

This started as "whats a good shredding round" which IMHO there isn't one. The glasers are only OK if you want something for home defense that looses lethality threw walls. Some of the other frangibles are good for knocking down steel plates minimizing splash back and are good in airplanes reducing the risk of ricochet. I would never use them in a duty weapon on patrol or for CCW out of the Home. I wouldn't even use them in my place of business I wouldn't use them If I lived alone in a house and depending on how well I like my neighbors I may or may not even use them in an apartment.

One thing I brought up earlier I would really like to test self defense loads.
__________________
Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit!

Smyrna Lodge #532 F.&A.M.

Last edited by Mayhem; 04-13-2009 at 6:41 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:21 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.