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  #1  
Old 03-24-2009, 1:49 PM
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Default CA Pawnbroker & stolen handgun

Sorry if info on this is elsewhere in some other thread. I'll continue to look to see if I can find the answer regarding this issue. I hope this is the right forum.

Just heard from a co-worker this morning about a situation involving his brother. His brother had a handgun stolen 14 years back. He reported it, has the paperwork on legal ownership, and has done everything by the book.

He got a call recently from LAPD, that the gun was located in a local pawn shop when the owner tried to sell it (running the serial number for transfer flagged it on a stolen registry database). The police confirmed that it was the stolen weapon as well as it was not involved in any (other) crime that they know of, and essentially washed their hands of the whole thing.

The problem is that the pawn broker wants the legal owner to pay the pawn ticket on the weapon ($300). I contacted a retired attorney for general info (he's not allowed to actually give legal advice any longer), who said it depends on CA statute and if the pawn broker exercised reasonable effort to determine if said handgun was stolen (as per whatever the CA law is).

Some of the web searches I've done show that police can confiscate the stolen property and return it to the legal owner regardless of if the pawn broker or some other buyer were out any money (see: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Sat...awned+And+Gone ).

I'm also going to refer the person in question to this site to set up an account to give further detail if needed, but would be grateful for and information on where/how to resolve this. I've found some info re: the CA Dept. of Justice and firearm/handgun laws and am recommending he contact them regarding the details given, as well as some listings on CA pawnbrokers and gun sales (though it mostly had to do with the selling of the gun by the pawn broker and not much on the initial purchase). The other thing that seems crazy is that the police would only pursue action against the seller of the stolen property (who they have photos of and other ID - whether real or not - don't they take thumb prints too?) if the pawn broker or original owner filed a complaint (which could make them targets for gang retaliation). You'd think the police would realize that and follow-up on their own (especially with all the "guns and crime" hysteria).

Just seems screwy that stolen property can be identified and recovered, and not returned to the legal, rightful owner. I'm very curious to see if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Thanks. More later.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2009, 1:52 PM
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Contact the CalGuns Foundation and see if they can help.
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  #3  
Old 03-24-2009, 3:12 PM
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Thanks for the tip. I'll pass it on. (love your 'Boxy Brown' icon) - ATHF is great! (1st new episode in awhile this Sunday!). I'll have to upload my Mooninite icon.
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  #4  
Old 03-24-2009, 3:15 PM
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If the pawnbroker followed the law he is entitled to get the pawn ticket paid. It's in the law somewhere, I don't remember where.

Heard it during the PD academy and thought it sounded unfair then.
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  #5  
Old 03-24-2009, 3:19 PM
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Default Pawnbroker & CA law

THX Dirtbiker. That's how my former attorney friend saw it. If he followed whatever the existing law was, he didn't have to surrender it (though he still couldn't sell it since it is recorded as stolen property). Someone suggested offering him some sort of finder's fee.
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Old 03-24-2009, 3:24 PM
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Yeah look into into it sometimes the pawn dealers is S.O.L.

My co-worker use to buy jewelery ie gold etc as a pawn broker and had to hold it for 30 days with all kinds of information on who sold it to him, to the Sheriff. If no one came forward that it was stolen in the 30 days time then he could keep it.

This one time a old lady came in like 1 week after the 30 days turns out her criminal son stole and sold her stuff. But it was too late it was melted down and past the legal date he had to return it. If she came in earlier then the my buddy would have to eat it.
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  #7  
Old 03-24-2009, 3:50 PM
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What kind of handgun is it?
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  #8  
Old 03-24-2009, 3:54 PM
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Not sure but the victim will be reading this site tonight and register so he can to add his $.02
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  #9  
Old 03-24-2009, 4:21 PM
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I wonder if it would be worth it to pay the $300 rather than have to deal with getting it returned by LAPD and dealing with that bureaucracy...

Of course, it sucks to have to pay money to retrieve one's stolen property.
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Old 03-24-2009, 4:27 PM
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I didnt seem to read it anywhere but what is the statute of limitations on stolen firearms ?

I thought no sales are final with guns until the DOJ checks the serial.

if it was me I would try to find out who sold it to the owner and file any criminal charges I could.

my dad had a stainless 38 stolen and recovered several years later after the thief tried to rob a liquor store but they never charged the guy with breaking into my dads vehicle and stealing it.
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  #11  
Old 03-24-2009, 4:45 PM
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Default Small Claims Court Time

I don't think a pawnbroker can get good title on stolen property. There may be a statute, but common law says he can't.

Have your friend sue in small claims court for the value of the gun. His proof is the original police report. Be sure to get estimates of the current value of the gun.
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Old 03-24-2009, 4:52 PM
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My simple answer.

Offer the pawn shop $150 cash, take it or leave it!

The "real" victim in this case is the original owner who had the gun stolen from him, period. The gun is worthless to the pawn shop. They can't sell / transfer it period! If they refuse the $150 offer, tell the shop you plan on doing the following:

1.) file a claim against them in small claims court for the original price of the gun plus the maximum amount allowed by the court.

2.) contact the "investigative reporter" at the local TV station and ask them if they're interested in doing a story about the incident. Suggest they interview the original owner in front of the business during the daytime with the "live at five" cameras.

3.) recontact the police (speak with a supervisor) and ask them if possession of stolen property is still a crime. If so, ask why the person at the pawn shop is being allowed commit a felony & knowingly posses stolen property?

I bet the shop will take $150.

Good Luck & let us know what happened!
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2009, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy_clothing View Post
I didnt seem to read it anywhere but what is the statute of limitations on stolen firearms ?

I thought no sales are final with guns until the DOJ checks the serial.

if it was me I would try to find out who sold it to the owner and file any criminal charges I could.

my dad had a stainless 38 stolen and recovered several years later after the thief tried to rob a liquor store but they never charged the guy with breaking into my dads vehicle and stealing it.
Can anyone prove that he was the one who broke into the vehicle and stole it? Sounds like the most they could charge him with regarding the theft would be receiving stolen property.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2009, 5:13 PM
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couldnt find it for CA but this is for DC, I think B applies

RCW 9.41.040
Unlawful possession of firearms — Ownership, possession by certain persons — Penalties.

(1)(a) A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree, if the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm after having previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity in this state or elsewhere of any serious offense as defined in this chapter.

(b) Unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree is a class B felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW.

(2)(a) A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the second degree, if the person does not qualify under subsection (1) of this section for the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree and the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm:

(i) After having previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity in this state or elsewhere of any felony not specifically listed as prohibiting firearm possession under subsection (1) of this section, or any of the following crimes when committed by one family or household member against another, committed on or after July 1, 1993: Assault in the fourth degree, coercion, stalking, reckless endangerment, criminal trespass in the first degree, or violation of the provisions of a protection order or no-contact order restraining the person or excluding the person from a residence (RCW 26.50.060, 26.50.070, 26.50.130, or 10.99.040);

(ii) After having previously been involuntarily committed for mental health treatment under RCW 71.05.320, *71.34.090, chapter 10.77 RCW, or equivalent statutes of another jurisdiction, unless his or her right to possess a firearm has been restored as provided in RCW 9.41.047;

(iii) If the person is under eighteen years of age, except as provided in RCW 9.41.042; and/or

(iv) If the person is free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a serious offense as defined in RCW 9.41.010.

(b) Unlawful possession of a firearm in the second degree is a class C felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW.

(3) Notwithstanding RCW 9.41.047 or any other provisions of law, as used in this chapter, a person has been "convicted", whether in an adult court or adjudicated in a juvenile court, at such time as a plea of guilty has been accepted, or a verdict of guilty has been filed, notwithstanding the pendency of any future proceedings including but not limited to sentencing or disposition, post-trial or post-factfinding motions, and appeals. Conviction includes a dismissal entered after a period of probation, suspension or deferral of sentence, and also includes equivalent dispositions by courts in jurisdictions other than Washington state. A person shall not be precluded from possession of a firearm if the conviction has been the subject of a pardon, annulment, certificate of rehabilitation, or other equivalent procedure based on a finding of the rehabilitation of the person convicted or the conviction or disposition has been the subject of a pardon, annulment, or other equivalent procedure based on a finding of innocence. Where no record of the court's disposition of the charges can be found, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the person was not convicted of the charge.

(4) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2) of this section, a person convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of an offense prohibiting the possession of a firearm under this section other than murder, manslaughter, robbery, rape, indecent liberties, arson, assault, kidnapping, extortion, burglary, or violations with respect to controlled substances under RCW 69.50.401 and 69.50.410, who received a probationary sentence under RCW 9.95.200, and who received a dismissal of the charge under RCW 9.95.240, shall not be precluded from possession of a firearm as a result of the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, if a person is prohibited from possession of a firearm under subsection (1) or (2) of this section and has not previously been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a sex offense prohibiting firearm ownership under subsection (1) or (2) of this section and/or any felony defined under any law as a class A felony or with a maximum sentence of at least twenty years, or both, the individual may petition a court of record to have his or her right to possess a firearm restored:

(a) Under RCW 9.41.047; and/or

(b)(i) If the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity was for a felony offense, after five or more consecutive years in the community without being convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity or currently charged with any felony, gross misdemeanor, or misdemeanor crimes, if the individual has no prior felony convictions that prohibit the possession of a firearm counted as part of the offender score under RCW 9.94A.525; or

(ii) If the conviction or finding of not guilty by reason of insanity was for a nonfelony offense, after three or more consecutive years in the community without being convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity or currently charged with any felony, gross misdemeanor, or misdemeanor crimes, if the individual has no prior felony convictions that prohibit the possession of a firearm counted as part of the offender score under RCW 9.94A.525 and the individual has completed all conditions of the sentence.

(5) In addition to any other penalty provided for by law, if a person under the age of eighteen years is found by a court to have possessed a firearm in a vehicle in violation of subsection (1) or (2) of this section or to have committed an offense while armed with a firearm during which offense a motor vehicle served an integral function, the court shall notify the department of licensing within twenty-four hours and the person's privilege to drive shall be revoked under RCW 46.20.265.

(6) Nothing in chapter 129, Laws of 1995 shall ever be construed or interpreted as preventing an offender from being charged and subsequently convicted for the separate felony crimes of theft of a firearm or possession of a stolen firearm, or both, in addition to being charged and subsequently convicted under this section for unlawful possession of a firearm in the first or second degree. Notwithstanding any other law, if the offender is convicted under this section for unlawful possession of a firearm in the first or second degree and for the felony crimes of theft of a firearm or possession of a stolen firearm, or both, then the offender shall serve consecutive sentences for each of the felony crimes of conviction listed in this subsection.

(7) Each firearm unlawfully possessed under this section shall be a separate offense.


[2005 c 453 1; 2003 c 53 26; 1997 c 338 47; 1996 c 295 2. Prior: 1995 c 129 16 (Initiative Measure No. 159); 1994 sp.s. c 7 402; prior: 1992 c 205 118; 1992 c 168 2; 1983 c 232 2; 1961 c 124 3; 1935 c 172 4; RRS 2516-4.]

Last edited by stormy_clothing; 03-24-2009 at 5:17 PM..
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2009, 6:15 PM
TomHynes TomHynes is offline
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Default Pawnbroker's title

The pawnbroker is a good faith purchaser of the gun. He didn't know if it was stolen, he paid value for it. He is not holding it illegally, he has voidable title.

The original owner has to prove that he has better title than the pawnbroker. The pawnbroker is entitled to his day in court.

That is why I recommend small claims court. I would fill out all the small claims court paperwork, have copies of all documents ready, then stop by the pawnbroker just before you file. Tell him that if you have to file, he is going to pay all court costs.


This is a pretty good explanation of it in a more complicated scenario:

http://http://www.lexisnexis.com/law.../contracts.asp
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Old 03-24-2009, 6:16 PM
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Honestly the pawn broker should have the guy who brought it in's information and should seek whatever costs from that person in court. You should not have to offer him a cent in order to recover your property.
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Old 03-24-2009, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaffe View Post
Honestly the pawn broker should have the guy who brought it in's information and should seek whatever costs from that person in court. You should not have to offer him a cent in order to recover your property.
Sorry, but I have dealt with this situation numerous times. Pawnbrokers know the law related to their profession extremely well. They definitely know it better than the police. You will have to pay the pawn in order to get your weapon back. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened. Good luck.
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Old 03-24-2009, 8:12 PM
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I am surprised LE did not pick up the item from the pawn shop as evidence and go after the guy that pawned it.
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Old 03-24-2009, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RP1911 View Post
I am surprised LE did not pick up the item from the pawn shop as evidence and go after the guy that pawned it.
I guarantee the LE will go after the guy. However, we cannot simply take it from the pawnbroker. I will have to find the citation on this.
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Old 03-25-2009, 8:57 AM
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Update - My co-worker gave the info from here to his brother. I learned it's a long barrel blued .357 Magnum in great shape. He told the pawnbroker he was going to small claims court and the pawnbroker said that maybe "they can work something out" which leads me to believe that they don't have much confidence that they would win. I told my friend to have his brother register here to provide further details or at least keep me updated on the final resolution.

I will make sure everyone knows how this eventually turns out. Much appreciation for all the comments and suggestions. I'm glad I opened the thread.
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Old 03-25-2009, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
Sorry, but I have dealt with this situation numerous times. Pawnbrokers know the law related to their profession extremely well. They definitely know it better than the police. You will have to pay the pawn in order to get your weapon back. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened. Good luck.
Do you not need to do a transfer if you buy from a private party as a 01FFL?
If the pawn broker did not, then didn't they not take the necessary steps to ensure the item was not stolen?
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Old 03-25-2009, 3:08 PM
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I am a founding member of the CA pawn and secondhand dealer investigators association, which came about for exactly these reasons back around the mid-'80s. I don't know if the association still exists or not as I have been out of this enforcement area for 20+ years. The PSDIA actually got the law passed requiring a fingerprint of the seller on the pawn ticket.

This is how it was back then:
1. Cops could seize the property from the pawn dealer as stolen property. (they always protested, said we needed a warrant, threatened civil action, etc.)
2. The stolen property would be released to the owner of record or to his insurance company if a claim had been paid. (most insurers would release interest back to their client/victim)

PSDIA held annual training sessions, alternating between north and south CA, for local law enforcement, sharing information and teaching then current pawn law and how to enforce it. Most of the large CA LE agencies did have members in PSDIA. The original core officers were from SacSD, SClaraSD, SJPD, SFPD, LAPD, SDPD, and others. PSDIA grew rapidly due to the need to enforce pawn laws uniformly in CA.

The pawn dealers always alleged a fiduciary interest but our position was too bad, go after the seller. The CA pawn shop owners had a strong association and would lobby Sacramento every time a law was proposed.

Things may well have changed.
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Old 03-25-2009, 4:41 PM
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If the pawn broker reports a used gun and it returns as a stolen, and if nothing is happened, what is the point of reporting it? I think the owner should have the right to recover the stolen gun. It is just my thought.
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Old 03-25-2009, 4:50 PM
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ok i have a member of the family in the pawn biz. here is your answer. if you want the property back you will have to either pay for the item ( if you do not want to go to court or press charges ) or you will have to go to court and press charges if you do not want to pay the pawn amount. that route is time consuming but it will still cost a few bucks and alot of time. it sucks but that way the pawnbroker doesn't become a victim of theft.

Last edited by jamesob; 03-25-2009 at 4:57 PM..
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Old 03-25-2009, 4:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesob View Post
ok i have a member of the family in the pawn biz. here is your answer. if you want the property back you will have to either pay for the item ( if you do not want to go to court or press charges ) or you will have to go to court and press charges if you do not want to pay the pawn amount. that route is time consuming but it will still cost a few bucks and alot of time.
What the pawn broker going to do with this gun anyways? Now that he knows it's stolen, he can't sell it. Knowing that it is stolen.

He'll either keep it forever, give it to police, chuck it somewhere, or possible sell it off under the table to some thug.
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Old 03-25-2009, 6:05 PM
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What the pawn broker going to do with this gun anyways? Now that he knows it's stolen, he can't sell it. Knowing that it is stolen.

He'll either keep it forever, give it to police, chuck it somewhere, or possible sell it off under the table to some thug.
if it was stolen the pawn broker should put a hold or the police should give the pawn broker a receipt and take it.
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Old 03-25-2009, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eta34 View Post
I guarantee the LE will go after the guy. However, we cannot simply take it from the pawnbroker. I will have to find the citation on this.
Please do....does it apply to firearms are have you mostly dealt with other stolen property not specifically firearms. I would think we could just seize it and book it as evidence with a property report.

I have no experience with pawn shops as you can tell.
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Old 03-25-2009, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrist View Post
Please do....does it apply to firearms are have you mostly dealt with other stolen property not specifically firearms. I would think we could just seize it and book it as evidence with a property report.

I have no experience with pawn shops as you can tell.
ok i just got off the phone with my mom, and she confirmed what i said. now she did say that this has never happened to her with a firearm but when it comes to firearms a litlle grey in that area. she did say that the police could give a receipt for the firearm and take it but unlikely, the receipt would protect the pawnbroker from losing money on the weapon if that is what happened . also when it came to prosicuting the guy who pawned it it would be an uphill battle because they have to prove that he knew it was stolen. the original owner could press the issue to get the weapon back threw court and the pawnbroker would go after the pawner for restitution for their loss.
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Old 03-25-2009, 7:47 PM
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Here is the citation..sorry for the length

Business and Professions Code 21647:
(a) Whenever any peace officer has probable cause to believe
that property, except coins, monetized bullion, or "commercial grade
ingots" as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 21627, in the
possession of a pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer is
stolen, the peace officer may place a hold on the property for a
period not to exceed 90 days. When a peace officer places a hold on
the property, the peace officer shall give the pawnbroker, secondhand
dealer, or coin dealer a written notice at the time the hold is
placed, describing the item or items to be held. During that period
the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer shall not release
or dispose of the property, except pursuant to a court order or upon
receipt of a written authorization signed by any peace officer who is
a member of the law enforcement agency of which the peace officer
placing the hold on the property is a member. A pawnbroker,
secondhand property dealer, or coin dealer shall not be subject to
civil liability for compliance with this section.

(b) Whenever property that is in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer, whether or not the property has
been placed on hold, is required by a peace officer in a criminal
investigation, the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer,
upon reasonable notice, shall produce the property at reasonable
times and places or may deliver the property to the peace officer
upon the request of any peace officer.

(c) Whenever a law enforcement agency has knowledge that property
in the possession of a pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer
has been reported as lost or stolen, the law enforcement agency shall
notify in writing the person who reported the property as lost or
stolen of the following:

(1) The name, address, and telephone number of the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer who reported the acquisition of the
property.
(2) That the law neither requires nor prohibits payment of a fee
or any other condition in return for the surrender of the property,
except that when the person who reported the property lost or stolen
does not choose to participate in the prosecution of an identified
alleged thief, the person shall pay the pawnbroker, secondhand
dealer, or coin dealer the "out-of-pocket" expenses paid in the
acquisition of the property in return for the surrender of the
property.
(3) That if the person who reported the property as lost or stolen
takes no action to recover the property from the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer within 60 days of the mailing of
the notice, the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may
treat the property as other property received in the ordinary course
of business. During the 60-day notice period, the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may not release the property to any
other person.
(4) That a copy of the notice, with the address of the person who
reported the property as lost or stolen deleted, will be mailed to
the pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer who is in
possession of the property.

(d) When property that is in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer is subject to a hold as provided in
subdivision (a), and the property is no longer required for the
purpose of a criminal investigation, the law enforcement agency that
placed the hold on the property shall release the hold on the
property. When the law enforcement agency has knowledge that the
property has been reported lost or stolen, the law enforcement agency
shall then make notification to the person who reported the property
as lost or stolen pursuant to subdivision (c).

(e) If a pledgor seeks to redeem property that is subject to a
hold, the pawnbroker shall advise the pledgor of the name of the
peace officer who placed the hold on the property and the name of the
law enforcement agency of which the officer is a member. If the
property is not required to be held pursuant to a criminal
prosecution the hold shall be released.

(f) Whenever information regarding allegedly lost or stolen
property is entered into the Department of Justice automated property
system or automated firearms system, and the property is thereafter
identified and found to be in the possession of a pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer, and the property is thereafter
placed on a hold pursuant to this section and the hold, including any
additional hold, is allowed to lapse, or 60 days elapse following
the delivery of the notice required to be given by this section to
the person who reported the property to be lost or stolen without a
claim being made by that person, whichever is later, the pawnbroker,
secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may mail under a Certificate of
Mailing issued by the United States Post Office, addressed to the law
enforcement agency that placed the property on hold, a written
request to delete the property listing from the Department of Justice
automated property system or automated firearms system, as is
applicable. Within 30 days after the request has been mailed, the
law enforcement agency shall either cause the property listing to be
deleted as requested or place a hold on the property. If no law
enforcement agency takes any further action with respect to the
property within 45 days after the mailing of the request, the
pawnbroker, secondhand dealer, or coin dealer may presume that the
property listing has been deleted as requested and may thereafter
deal with the property accordingly, and shall not be subject to
liability arising from the failure of the removal of the property
listing from the Department of Justice automated property system or
automated firearms system.

(g) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter the
authority of a peace officer to seize property pursuant to any other
provision of statutory or case law.
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  #30  
Old 03-25-2009, 7:48 PM
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eta34 eta34 is offline
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Essentially, we have always put stolen items on hold. It is generally up to the owner and the shop to agree on a price to get the stuff back.
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  #31  
Old 03-26-2009, 3:47 PM
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LanceThruster LanceThruster is offline
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@eta34 - Thank you so much. That is very useful information and I have passed it on to the victim/owner.

To me, it kind of makes clear why law enforcement wouldn't necessarily get involved as the statute shows there is a way for the two parties to resolve this (particularly section c paragraph 2) without their participation, though that is not ruled out either. It was also interesting the part about the victim pressing charges as well as his inaction at some point would make it legal for the pawnbroker to sell it after 60 days. No wonder the pawnbroker seems to be delaying action a bit. As others have said, he would be out as well (a 'victim' of sorts too).

Last edited by LanceThruster; 03-26-2009 at 3:55 PM..
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  #32  
Old 03-26-2009, 5:23 PM
Jonathan Doe
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It seems like to me that the original owner is paying for the gun twice in this case, once when he originally bought it, and then when he take it form the pawn broker. Wow, the owner is SOL.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2009, 5:31 PM
B Strong B Strong is offline
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This information really surprises me - I always believed that only the legal owner held title to property, and in the case of stolen property, no individual other than the legal owner of the property could make a true claim (Pawnbroker wanting his ticket redeemed)
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Old 03-26-2009, 5:56 PM
rdmax rdmax is offline
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Correct me, if I am wrong, in my Business Law class many years back, a Seller of stolen goods knowingly sells the goods to a unknowing Buyer at arms length (Fair Market Value), the Buyer will get good title to the goods. If the Buyer has knowledge or suspect the goods are stolen, then they will not have good title to it (might be hard to prove). The average private citizen should get good title if the transfer like a PPT as long as it was arms length and no knowledge that the goods were stolen.

Going to court, the original owner may not win if the Pawn Shop can show they have good title to it. Also, even if the original owner wins, it doesn't mean the Pawn Shop is liable for legal fees. Most legal fees will cost more than the value of the stolen goods, if you do hire an attorney.

Best to just negotiate a deal with the Pawn Shop.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2009, 6:25 PM
geeknow geeknow is offline
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if that gun was reported stolen, then it is still "registered". "possession = 9/10" does not apply to firearms. lampshades, yes. firearms, no. call the DOJ and hound them into calling the pawnbroker on your behalf. That is their licensee that is misbehaving.

I do have recent firsthand experience in recovering stolen firearms from un-cooperative agencies.

have your brother, or whoever the "victim" is contact me, and i will help as best as i can.
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  #36  
Old 03-27-2009, 6:33 PM
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there is no doubt about who the real owner is on a firearm especially a handgun. the weapon was registered by make/model and serial number in my opinion its cut and dry. the seller did not receive the gun legally because if he did it would have gone threw a ffl and they would have caught it then. at the least they could get him on that and for restatution to the pawn broker.
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  #37  
Old 03-27-2009, 8:06 PM
GuyW GuyW is offline
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Hmm.

If a Harley has stolen parts, even if the owner has no knowledge, the cops impound it and confiscate it (what I've heard). [Legal government harrassment of motorcyclists]

If a pawnbroker has a stolen gun, the cops do nothing [Legal government harrassment of gun owners]

...[ ] = only way I can resolve it....

Last edited by GuyW; 03-27-2009 at 9:35 PM..
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  #38  
Old 03-27-2009, 8:54 PM
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It would be faster and easier to work a deal with the pawnshop.
__________________
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I said I either wanted to chase younger women or shoot.

Here I am.
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Old 03-28-2009, 7:34 AM
B Strong B Strong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyW View Post
Hmm.

If a Harley has stolen parts, even if the owner has no knowledge, the cops impound it and confiscate it (what I've heard). [Legal government harrassment of motorcyclists]

If a pawnbroker has a stolen gun, the cops do nothing [Legal government harrassment of gun owners]

...[ ] = only way I can resolve it....
There is a difference in this type of case - the pawnbroker has a paper trail proving proof of purchase, and is in the business of "loaning" money and is a licensee.

In the case of a stolen vehicle, most often the individual in possession has no such paper trail defense.

I stopped riding Harleys long ago and moved into super sport bikes, but in my experience bikes that go on the hook involve more than just paperwork questions.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2009, 3:02 PM
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laguns laguns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHynes View Post
I don't think a pawnbroker can get good title on stolen property. There may be a statute, but common law says he can't.

Have your friend sue in small claims court for the value of the gun. His proof is the original police report. Be sure to get estimates of the current value of the gun.
Waste of time. I was sued once by an attorney no less. I faxed him copies of the laws governing second hand dealers but he went foreword with the small claims suit anyway. Of course I won the case. The law is clear, second hand dealers have to be reimbursed.

Look, it's a crappy situation, but if I just hand the gun over then I become the victim.
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