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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 03-05-2009, 9:12 AM
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Default Run and Gun build is finally DONE.





****Lost original pics, these are from the updated version of my rifle from post 56****

Finally finished up work on my Stag Carbine that was 90% built from parts acquired on the ar15.com EE or the calguns trader pages.

Primary focus of this build was a CQB carbine that had to be featureless and very compact. I'm still considering getting Randall to chop 1.5" off the barrel and permanently attach the muzzle device to get down to about 31" OAL.

Sights chosen for fast target acquisition as all 3 are circular. Contoured grip and winter trigger aid one handed operation. MSTN QC muzzle brake allows fast follow up shots with very little muzzle rise. I've shot it several times during it's evolutionary journey to it's current form and it's performed very well. All in all, I'm pretty happy with my "fighting man's gun."

Specs:
Stag 2H upper with Daniel Defense low profile gas block.
Stag lower with Stag LPK and ambi safety.
Samson 10" FF rail with Knight's Armament rail covers.
MSTN QC muzzle brake
Sully stock
Sully "winter trigger guard"
GG&G Burnsend loop
POF HK-style front sight
MATECH rear sight
EoTech 512
CAA G-27 pistol grip with custom 12 gauge steel "fin" bolted w/ locknuts. (and before anyone asks....NO, I won't build you one. It was a real PITA! Haha)
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Last edited by Fate; 04-10-2015 at 1:05 PM..
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2009, 9:18 AM
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Looks great. Did you make the grip yourself? I think it looks better than the MMG.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2009, 9:28 AM
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here is a thought... can you put your pistol grip fin closer to one side of the grip? that way if its all the way to the left side of the pistol grip, you could get more of your palm on the pistol grip, while still not counting as a pistol grip.
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Old 03-05-2009, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TZL View Post
here is a thought... can you put your pistol grip fin closer to one side of the grip? that way if its all the way to the left side of the pistol grip, you could get more of your palm on the pistol grip, while still not counting as a pistol grip.
That's exactly how it was built. Aided the bolt down too. The palm swell was a very important element in choosing the grip. Standard A2 didn't work so well during early experiments. Finger grooves also help a lot vs. standard A1/A2 or TangoDown style grip.

Slight offset: (click to enlarge)

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Last edited by Fate; 03-05-2009 at 10:09 AM..
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2009, 9:45 AM
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Nice build. How does the Sully stock install -- Does it require a special buffer tube that it can screw into on the end? Or will it go on a carbine length buffer tube? Thanks.
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  #6  
Old 03-05-2009, 9:56 AM
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Where did you get the grip set up?
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by PatriotnMore View Post
Where did you get the grip set up?
Made it myself with some scrap steel, a Dremel, flat file, drill, truck bed liner spray and a lot of fitting. Did a lot of prototype building with card stock to get the shape right before I started cutting.

Re: Sully stock, I think it's a pistol length tube & buffer, but it comes with the stock.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Made it myself with some scrap steel, a Dremel, flat file, drill, truck bed liner spray and a lot of fitting. Did a lot of prototype building with card stock to get the shape right before I started cutting.

Re: Sully stock, I think it's a pistol length tube & buffer, but it comes with the stock.
Nice job, how is it attached?
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  #9  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:16 AM
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Bolts with lock nuts. Impossible to remove without tools. If you've seen a JJPerl AK bullet button, you've seen a lock nut. If one were to try and unscrew the bolts from the outside, they'll just spin inside the grip. Had to use a hemostat to reach inside to hold the nut on install (just getting it on the bolt for the deep one took 20 minutes of struggle!). Steel is also cut larger than slot in grip so it can't be pushed in either.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
CAA G-27 pistol grip with custom 12 gauge steel "fin" bolted w/ locknuts.
Very nice. Will you build me one of those grips?
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  #11  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:19 AM
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looks good, nice build for mag drop drills etc
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  #12  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Bolts with lock nuts. Impossible to remove without tools. If you've seen a JJPerl AK bullet button, you've seen a lock nut. If one were to try and unscrew the bolts from the outside, they'll just spin inside the grip. Had to use a hemostat to reach inside to hold the nut on install (just getting it on the bolt for the deep one took 20 minutes of struggle!). Steel is also cut larger than slot in grip so it can't be pushed in either.
Got it. I may give that a go.
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  #13  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
CAA G-27 pistol grip with custom 12 gauge steel "fin" bolted w/ locknuts. (and before anyone asks....NO, I won't build you one. It was a real PITA! Haha)

You have a good product here if you decide to make em Ill take two
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:12 AM
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Nice build and especially nice pistol grip! Is this your 3-gun/carbine class setup? I'd be interested in how that absolute co-witness works out for you. I found it anyone as hell.
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  #15  
Old 03-05-2009, 11:31 AM
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Nice build and especially nice pistol grip! Is this your 3-gun/carbine class setup? I'd be interested in how that absolute co-witness works out for you. I found it anyone as hell.
Yep, 3-gun/carbine class is in this baby's future for sure.

I like the co-witness with the front sight only. Round HK style front sight just naturally centers for me (I shoot Mosins a lot). Round EOTech reticle bugs me less in or near a round front sight than the standard A2 FSB.



Rear BUIS is just that...a backup, but when deployed, the narrow post of the Matech doesn't block much of the view thru the (presumably defunct) EOTech.



I don't think you guys would like the price tag if I were to build one of these grips for you unless you really have $300 that you don't know what to do with.
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  #16  
Old 03-05-2009, 11:38 AM
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I've seen the BUIS with reverse set up, have you tried it?
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2009, 11:51 AM
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I've seen the BUIS with reverse set up, have you tried it?
You mean with the rear BUIS between the EOTech and the front sight? I saw that setup in an article about the dlsports.com rifles. I played with that when I had a set of HK style Centurion Diopter sights on this upper. It was ok (actually it worked pretty well), but I prefer the EOTech further towards the muzzle than riding at the rear of the receiver. When the EOTech was installed like it is now, the fixed rear sight of the Diopter blocked ~ 60% of the reticle window. Not good. There was a lot of thought, coupled with trial and error to reach the final configuration. That's the cool thing about ARs. You can tweak em til you're happy.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:22 PM
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Those are some nice pics, man. I guess the real takeaway is that you have to find the setup that works best for you. You like cowitness and I like a clear sight picture as I only have to center the EOTech reticule and nothing else in your sight picture. Let ue know how she shoots when you hit up your 3-gun match. That MSTN QC brake is awesome!
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2009, 2:10 PM
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I guess the real takeaway is that you have to find the setup that works best for you. You like cowitness and I like a clear sight picture as I only have to center the EOTech reticule and nothing else in your sight picture.
LOL, one trainer urged me to run my irons deployed along with my Aimpoint, so I was doing that (lower 1/3 co-witness, with the diamondhead troy rear sight that I found to be slightly more distracting than a standard rear aperture). Then the next recommended putting them down for a cleaner sight picture -- and that if the optic went down just shoot through the tube until you can remedy.

Truth is while I could kind of ignore the rear irons after a while, I really do prefer the clean sight picture. The front doesn't really bother me, I can leave it up.

OP, thanks for the reply on the Sully. I picked up a used one a number of years ago, went to pull it out recently and realized that it didn't come with a buffer tube... Looks like it's meant to screw in at the end so I guess I'll have to dig up a tube for it.
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2009, 3:25 PM
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Nice, clean build.

Sully stock uses the RRA entry tube.
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  #21  
Old 03-05-2009, 8:37 PM
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Thanks 'plinker. I didn't know the source of the receiver extension tube that Sully uses. Now I do! :cheers:
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Old 03-05-2009, 9:02 PM
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Interesting, and innovative grip modification to comply with featureless build criteria.
More of a BB guy myself but being someone who loves working on/ designing things I tip my hat to your ingenuity.
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Old 03-05-2009, 9:14 PM
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Looks great! Fist featureless build I have seen that I like, makes me want one now.
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Old 03-12-2009, 4:32 PM
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I just came to drool! Fate, I know you quoted 300 bucks from one of those grips but what would it take to get one of those on my rifle?
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Old 03-12-2009, 7:25 PM
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You shot those with a high-end DSLR, didn't you? Those CAA grips are showing up on a bunch of nicely built rifles.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:54 PM
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You shot those with a high-end DSLR, didn't you? Those CAA grips are showing up on a bunch of nicely built rifles.
Yeah, sorry those pics are so huge.

And Sam, I wasn't really joking. LOL. It was a Feinstein to create!
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:13 PM
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Hey, whats the length of the sully stock compared to the A2 stock and a Entry Stock. By the way, thats an awesome looking AR. Nice work. It looks soo much better than the MMG.
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Old 03-13-2009, 1:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Put a thumb stud on your sharkfin and you will have even better one-handed manipulation.
The stud should be real close to the reciever, near the top of the grip so that you can wrap your thumb over it and still reach an ambi-selector.
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Old 03-13-2009, 1:31 AM
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Looks great.
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Old 03-13-2009, 7:52 AM
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I always wondered with the MonsterMan grip why the angle of the grip itself was so different from the standard grip. This looks much more comfortable. Does anyone know the story behind the angle of the MM grip? Did it have something to do with the "protrudes conspicuously" wording in the legislation?
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Old 03-13-2009, 8:01 AM
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what type of magazine lock did you use?
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Old 03-13-2009, 8:09 AM
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Nice grip.

That is about what my next grip is going to look like. I will have a thumb shelf though.

Hopefully sometime in the future I can get it made.

Good work.
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Old 03-13-2009, 8:40 AM
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what type of magazine lock did you use?


Sorry, I couldn't help laughing, but I sometimes forget people are still just discovering CA legal ARs. Welcome!

There is no magazine lock. This is a "featureless" build (no flash suppressor or collapsible stock, pistol grip, forward pistol grip, grenade launcher with a min. length of 30") and is legal to have a detachable magazine (i.e. no bullet button/fixed mag).

Two options in CA for OLL: BB/fixed mag with 10 round magazines or Featureless and you can drop your mags and use any legally owned mags (no capacity limits).
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Old 03-13-2009, 8:51 AM
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Nice grip.

That is about what my next grip is going to look like. I will have a thumb shelf though.

Hopefully sometime in the future I can get it made.

Good work.
Appreciate the praise, MM!

I remember back when the forum was kicking around all sorts of ideas and you were one of the first to show some early concepts as the "collective" worked our way thru the Penal Code.

There have been a lot of guys that came up with variations on these themes. Plexiglass glued into grip, full on epoxy built grips, stock pistol grips with epoxy/fiberboard fin attached, kydex overwraps, etc. I just built on that same foundation, while enjoying the legal groundwork laid by your product down at the CA DOJ.

So thanks again for everything you did. Cheers!
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Old 03-13-2009, 9:07 AM
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Thanks.

I have made probably almost any configuration you can think of in my garage trying to come up with my next design. Yours is pretty close to it. Not exact, but along the same idea.

When I made my first grip, the only other option at the time was the prince50 kit. So I thought I had a good chance in selling the grip and making my money back. But then the BB came out and now 99% of the new AR buyers use a fixed mag configuration. So my fears are if there is a market for a new grip. I would hate to throw down another $20,000.00 on a new grip and only sell a few. My wife would kill me.

I am on the fence about whether or not to make another nice injection molded updated grip. My grip now sells ok, and people that use it seem to really like it. But I think it could be re-designed to look better and feel better. Although I am so used to it, it might be weird to try something else out at this point.

I think making your own is a great idea. That way it is exactly what you want.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Appreciate the praise, MM!

I remember back when the forum was kicking around all sorts of ideas and you were one of the first to show some early concepts as the "collective" worked our way thru the Penal Code.

There have been a lot of guys that came up with variations on these themes. Plexiglass glued into grip, full on epoxy built grips, stock pistol grips with epoxy/fiberboard fin attached, kydex overwraps, etc. I just built on that same foundation, while enjoying the legal groundwork laid by your product down at the CA DOJ.

So thanks again for everything you did. Cheers!
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Last edited by MonsterMan; 03-13-2009 at 9:43 AM..
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Old 03-13-2009, 9:24 AM
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Here is a photoshop (this is a picture I grabbed online somewhere, so if it belongs to anyone reading this, thanks for the pic.) of a trimmed MMG keeping the trimmed part at the "line" so the web of your hand has to stay above the line. The only other modification that would be worth doing here is to round out the top of the grip so it would be more comfortable for your hand.

What do you think? (remember the stock is pinned).

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Old 03-13-2009, 9:38 AM
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Great featureless build Fate, well done.

Monsterman...it's funny, I was wondering the same thing a while back with regards to modifying a U-15 style grip...


so, if this is legal:


shouldn't this be legal?:
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  #38  
Old 03-13-2009, 9:42 AM
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Yep. It would be legal.
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  #39  
Old 03-13-2009, 10:02 AM
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heh...maybe Grant should make the "U-15 grip" in addition to the "U-15 stock"
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:17 AM
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MM:

As I'm sure you know, the big challenge you face is that most newbies to ARs wouldn't have hi-cap mags... Even though I'd love to see you produce a MMG V2 that's hopefully got a more typical grip angle, the fact that your market is somewhat capped presents a huge obstacle.

HOWEVER, I do think that if you went "niche" by going after the 3-gun/tactical crowd and made a MMG tailored specifically to their needs and ergonomics, you could charge much more per unit and still do well selling fewer. These guys are likely to have stockpiled tons of hi-caps and spend lots on their guns. Even though they usually have at least one reg'd AW, they often are adding more guns to their collections and would need a great featureless grip. Just go super-tailored to their needs and it will justify the higher price. You could become known as the way to go to build a California race gun.

Last edited by dchang0; 03-13-2009 at 10:26 AM..
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