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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Why don't we put [something] on the ballot? Initiatives and Amendments
California once had this neat political tool, generally called 'initiative and referendum'. In theory, it allowed The People to go around a recalcitrant government and enact some kind of reform.
1978's Jarvis/Gann "People's Initiative to Limit Property Taxation" campaign, AKA "Prop 13" is an example where, at least technically, that theory worked as expected (the actual results of that are arguable as to benefit). The structure of the tool still remains; the California Secretary of State's web site, http://www.sos.ca.gov/ , has an information page on initiatives at http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ball...initiative.htm. Anyone can see the current list, for the upcoming [2012] election, at http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ball...t-measures.htm, and there is a lot of historical information at http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ball...a-initiatives/ (Update for 2015) Initiatives seem to appear all the time. Some win, some lose. The Legislature puts several of them on the ballot; other than that, it is usually union or corporate interests that do it. As painful as it is to say, in this environment, gun owners are definitely the little guys. A really thorough treatment of why that's important is a book-length document at the Center for Governmental Studies. The bottom line? Quote:
A Bit of History about Gun-related Ballot Measures First one I can find is in 1976. Below, “(S)” means a Statute was proposed, “(CA)” means a Constitutional Amendment was proposed.
Historically, since 1912, 3 of 4 proposed measures failed to qualify, and of the qualified, 2 of 3 were rejected. From 1976 through 2010, just 14.5% of submitted measures qualified, and for the first 10 years of the 21st century, it has been just 11.1% successful. Here's the Secretary of State's Campaign Financing page for ballot measures: http://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/Campaign/Measures/ Look at the sponsors. Look at the money spent to propose and oppose. Try to look dispassionately at the current public climate in California: most people do not care about guns. Guns are not a 'pocket book' issue. Guns have a negative image in our media. That provides free anti-gun advertising. A good portion of California gun owners - present Calguns company excepted! - just want to be left alone*. There's a strong aversion to 'getting on lists' and 'attracting attention'. Signing up to support a ballot measure, even registering to vote, is often rejected. So, whatever the real numbers of gun owners in California, their interests are diverse; 'gun owners' are not a political force - gun ownership does not unite us. Barring our own unpredictable pro-gun event on the scale of Patrick Purdy or Virginia Tech, some huge emotion-changing, if-only-they'd-had-guns-they'd-have-been-OK thing, public support for the kinds of changes in gun laws most Calgunners would like to see just is not there. See also this story from the 3/23/2012 Mercury News: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_202337...ercurynews.com Quote:
That sucks, but that's real. It might be possible to change 3. It's possible, I think, to reduce the impact of 2 and move to change 1. But until we change 1 and 3, no ballot measure we would like has a chance to pass. (* I'm sure quite a number of Calgunners would also like to be 'left alone', but being here shows at least some realization that gub'mint isn't going along with that.)
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 03-17-2015 at 12:40 PM.. Reason: Updated for 2012 |
#2
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I actually wish the mods here would ban these "why don't we put ____ on the ballot" threads. Or just put up a standard notice of why it's such a mistake and then lock the thread.
They are coming up more and more frequently and the idea is just as bad as it ever was.
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. |
#3
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Why don't we put that on the ballot?
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#4
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George Washington didn't use the 1st amendment to defeat the British...he shot them. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
#5
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'Cuz we'd get our butts kick REALLY BAD and that would kill forever the chance of getting "shall issue" CCW in the state. I'm not convinced its ever going to happen anyway but putting a measure on the ballot would be a grave mistake. If we ever get it done here it'll be thru the courts. Don't hold your breath.
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Things usually turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out. |
#6
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Because if someone here started some effort to do a ballot initiative, what would happen is a lot of well-meaning people would spend a lot of their time collecting signatures and would still end up with about 5% of what they need to get it on that ballot. That means that 100% of the time they put into it would be wasted. There are so few of us (RKBA activists) in this state that we must be efficient with our time and resources. Investing time and resources into something which can't even possibly make it onto the ballot is something we absolutely cannot afford to do.
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GOOD QUESTION! I can make a long list of things that are not a waste of time:
ALL of these things are productive and will get us somewhere. Remember, with a ballot initiative, if it's one single signature short of the required amount, it doesn't get on the ballot and all the effort that went into it is completely wasted. And none of ours would get even close to enough signatures; they will get to about 5% probably, if it's an all volunteer effort. Our volunteer time is limited so spend it wisely, not foolishly.
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"Weakness is provocative." Senator Tom Cotton, president in 2024 Victoria "Tori" Rose Smith's life mattered. |
#7
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1. You have a spare mil or two for paid professional signature gatherers? 2. You got $70mil - $100 Million to have a chance at running an initiative? If you don't have #1, you can't even get to #2. If you have #1 and can't run a statewide campaign, you lose. That's a disaster. This money is far better spent on court fights, which we are winning/can win/will win.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Last edited by bwiese; 02-23-2009 at 3:52 PM.. |
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#9
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Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values. -Ayn Rand |
#10
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Overall the whole initiative process and directly democratic elements of our form of government do far more harm than good and California has suffered for it and as others have mentioned, even if you could get something on the ballot your plan would certainly backfire.
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#11
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And it got there through courts. Which is one of the points of this thread.
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#12
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1. Donate money to the people who actually bring about the court cases beneficial to 2nd Amendment rights: CGF, SAF, NRA, and now CRPA. On SAF, NRA and CRPA, becoming a member isn't necessarily enough, as the legal action committees/foundations run off a different fund from the membership one. 2. Help support those cases by providing your time when needed. 3. Help defeating proposed bad laws by providing your time when needed. 4. Figure out some legal ways to destroy the antis. See, there's the fun part, too Speaking of #4, I'm being derelict in my duties. I better get on it
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DiaHero Foundation - helping people manage diabetes. Sending diabetes supplies to Ukraine now, any help is appreciated. DDR AK furniture and Norinco M14 parts kit: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1756292 |
#13
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I definitely agree "the public is not on our side".
Driving to my house at the end of a cul de sac and seeing the neighbors (who all pretty much keep to themselves) there are not any firearm owners in the entire block and would oppose easing of restrictions on RKBA. .
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The deterioration of every government begins with the decay of the principles on which it was founded. Charles-Louis de Secondat (1689-1755) Baron de Montesquieu In America, freedom and justice have always come from the ballot box, the jury box, and when that fails, the cartridge box. Steve Symms, ex-U.S. Senator, Idaho |
#14
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There are many ways to approach the issue. You can run for office.
Better yet, you can support like-minded candidates that are already running for office. Like me, for example. If you want to donate money, time, or effort, to put a pro-RKBA candidate on the Fountain Valley City Council, please send me a PM. |
#15
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Another thing you can do: If you live in an district represented by an anti-gun democrat, write your reps and tell them that *as a democrat* and *one of their strongest supporters* and a *civil rights supporting liberal* that you support the RKBA as a civil right... and that you find their antigun sentiment both racist, and against your liberal ideals.
If you write in as a pro-gun conservative, your letter goes straight into the shredder. |
#17
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If you write in as a member of the International Criminals Union, your letter goes straight up on their altar of victim disarmament.
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#18
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AND failed initiatives do more harm than good. it gives our opponents quasi statistics that we are a minority/fringe. esapecially if they actually make the ballot and are defeated. those results can be forever drug out to say the majority opposed. bad juju!
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#19
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CCWFACTS: You said in your list " Get a non-res CCW from UT or FL, and get your friends or family to do the same"
Why? I would have sent a PM but I can't be the only one here wondering why that will help CA compared to other things. |
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