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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-07-2009, 7:49 PM
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Default legality of ss109/m855 AP ammo In california?

Can I legally purchase ss109/m855 AP ammo online from Wideners and not have men in black suits showing up on my front door step? Has any one purchased ss109/m855 AP ammo In the past couple months?
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2009, 7:53 PM
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Ill tell the guys in black not to come get ya if you send 200 rds to me
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2009, 7:56 PM
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Well first off, you need to stop calling it AP because m855 or SS109 is not AP. It is steel core ammo. True AP rounds for 5.56 is next to impossible to get
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Old 02-07-2009, 9:11 PM
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I dont shoot m855 not because im scared to shoot it. I have a 1/4 ammo can full of it. I just dont shoot it because

1.) Its expensive Compared to surplus XM193
2.) I don't want to start forest fires.
3.) I'm not shoot through cars and extended ranges.

Right now I shoot Lake City stuff.. around .45 cents a shot but wolf most of the time because its a little cheaper at .30 cents.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2009, 9:43 PM
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M855 / SS109 is not AP. It has a hardened steel penetrator in the nose of the projectile only. Not a full steel core like true AP..

Here is a photo of a SS109 projectile showing the penetrator.

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  #6  
Old 02-07-2009, 9:59 PM
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if you get your hands on black tip, then you have to worry. I've only seen it in belts for the M-249, never seen it loose.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2009, 10:42 PM
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Only worry if you also own an AR pistol.
Either round mentioned above will make issues for you on the federal and state level if you also own an AR pistol much like if you owned an AK pistol and AP 7.62x39. Otherwise, no issue at all for owning either
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2009, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gunrun45 View Post
Only worry if you also own an AR pistol.
Either round mentioned above will make issues for you on the federal and state level if you also own an AR pistol much like if you owned an AK pistol and AP 7.62x39. Otherwise, no issue at all for owning either
please explain!?
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2009, 10:52 PM
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dont take it on public land in california ...
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Old 02-07-2009, 11:59 PM
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So much ignorance. Only AP handgun ammo is verbotten in CA. Thus the allusion above about having an AR pistol.
Buy all the AP rifle ammo you want / can afford.

and for the person talking about 'I'm not shooting thru cars', your standard AR ammo will do that just fine.
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2009, 9:02 AM
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Simple summary:

- AP Rifle ammunition is NOT illegal.
- M855 Ammunition is NOT AP.
- M855 can be used in a pistol OR rifle.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2009, 9:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Noonanda View Post
if you get your hands on black tip, then you have to worry. I've only seen it in belts for the M-249, never seen it loose.
Worry about what? Hypersensitive misinformed Calgunners telling you it is illegal?
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Old 02-12-2009, 8:49 AM
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Here is a scan of a Hansen Cartridge flier from 1987. Their "fact sheet" on SS109 ammo. I sold literally hundreds of thousands of rounds of this ammo back in "the day" at the great western gun show in Pomona. I still have some today. It's great shooting ammo.

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Old 02-12-2009, 9:30 AM
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I have about 2k rounds of the Privi green tip. 62g FMJBT. Very accurate ammo. With it in my 20" HBAR I'm hitting 1 1/2" groups at 200y.


And as others have said.... TOTALLY LEGAL.


I did see some black tip .30-06 ammo on Ammotogo's website a while back. I would've bought some, but I don't have a .30-.06


Oh yeah, the black tip was/is legal, too!
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
Worry about what? Hypersensitive misinformed Calgunners telling you it is illegal?
Umm, AFAIK, black tip .223 ammo (M995) is true AP ammo and would be considered handgun AP ammo per the feds. The green-tip M855/SS109 is specifically exempted from the federal handgun AP ban. They also specifically exempt .30-06 AP ammo.

Now the federal ban does not ban possession of AP ammo, but CA does.

The question is, does CA consider .223 and .308 caliber ammo to be rifle ammo, and not handgun ammo?

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12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
(b) "Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor" means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield, and has either of the following characteristics:
(1) Has projectile or projectile core constructed entirely, excluding the presence of traces of other substances, from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium, or any equivalent material of similar density or hardness.
(2) Is primarily manufactured or designed, by virtue of its shape, cross-sectional density, or any coating applied thereto, including, but not limited to, ammunition commonly known as "KTW ammunition," to breach or penetrate a body vest or body shield when fired from a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(c) "Body vest or shield" means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma protection for the wearer or holder.
(d) "Rifle" shall have the same meaning as defined in paragraph (20) of subdivision (c) of Section 12020.
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Old 02-12-2009, 1:40 PM
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As a correlary question, are either of the Yugo surplus 7.62x39 or Wolf bulk 7.62x39 steel core?

I'm considering an AK build and I don't want to buy the wrong ammo.
-g
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Old 02-12-2009, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
Umm, AFAIK, black tip .223 ammo (M995) is true AP ammo and would be considered handgun AP ammo per the feds. The green-tip M855/SS109 is specifically exempted from the federal handgun AP ban. They also specifically exempt .30-06 AP ammo.

Now the federal ban does not ban possession of AP ammo, but CA does.

The question is, does CA consider .223 and .308 caliber ammo to be rifle ammo, and not handgun ammo?

Reading what you quoted in your post, .223 and .308 AP ammo would be legal in California because it states
Quote:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.
"

Now AFAIK .223 is not considered "handgun ammo" by any reasonable person. REASONABLE PERSON I would say is important here as that it is used in many court cases to define what should and should not be considered. And yes, I'm aware that there are 5.56/.223 AR pistols, but these "pistols" are not easily concealed on ones person and are limited to single shot here in Cali (unless you're a LEO). Also, I know of no .308 caliber handguns. There may be, but I'm not aware of them. Anyway,this is just my two cents worth. It could be complete gibberish AFAIK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunn View Post
As a correlary question, are either of the Yugo surplus 7.62x39 or Wolf bulk 7.62x39 steel core?

I'm considering an AK build and I don't want to buy the wrong ammo.
-g
You can buy some steel core 7.62x39 ammo. I don't think it's Wolf, though. Maybe some Mil. surplus. I think Barnul(sp?) made some. Anyway, again I know of no 7.63x39 hand guns other than an AK pistol set up. I could be wrong and would love to see some, but I'm not aware of any (that would be legal in Cali anyway)
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Old 02-12-2009, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Reading what you quoted in your post, .223 and .308 AP ammo would be legal in California because it states "

Now AFAIK .223 is not considered "handgun ammo" by any reasonable person. REASONABLE PERSON I would say is important here as that it is used in many court cases to define what should and should not be considered. And yes, I'm aware that there are 5.56/.223 AR pistols, but these "pistols" are not easily concealed on ones person and are limited to single shot here in Cali (unless you're a LEO). Also, I know of no .308 caliber handguns. There may be, but I'm not aware of them. Anyway,this is just my two cents worth. It could be complete gibberish AFAIK.



You can buy some steel core 7.62x39 ammo. I don't think it's Wolf, though. Maybe some Mil. surplus. I think Barnul(sp?) made some. Anyway, again I know of no 7.63x39 hand guns other than an AK pistol set up. I could be wrong and would love to see some, but I'm not aware of any (that would be legal in Cali anyway)
Wow, You are wrong about several things. First, AR pistols ar not limited to single shot in Ca. There are both registered AWs and newly imported single shots pistols which have been legally converted to fix 10 shot semi-autos after they were DROSed. Also, there have been TC Encores and Contenders chambered in almost every rifle caliber imaginable (I bet even some that you can't imagine). Also, other handguns have been built to chamber rifle cartridges including XP-100s and a few other bolt action pistols. Please, try to understand the laws first instead of giving bad legal advice.
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Old 02-12-2009, 3:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayra View Post
So much ignorance. Only AP handgun ammo is verbotten in CA. Thus the allusion above about having an AR pistol.
Buy all the AP rifle ammo you want / can afford.

and for the person talking about 'I'm not shooting thru cars', your standard AR ammo will do that just fine.
Most standard pistol ammmo will go through a car as well unless it's the engine block.
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Old 02-12-2009, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Wow, You are wrong about several things. First, AR pistols ar not limited to single shot in Ca. There are both registered AWs and newly imported single shots pistols which have been legally converted to fix 10 shot semi-autos after they were DROSed. Also, there have been TC Encores and Contenders chambered in almost every rifle caliber imaginable (I bet even some that you can't imagine). Also, other handguns have been built to chamber rifle cartridges including XP-100s and a few other bolt action pistols. Please, try to understand the laws first instead of giving bad legal advice.

Look, I said I could be wrong. But since you're bringing it up those aren't your everyday, concealable hand guns now are they? I think the section was pretty clear about that point, no? How are you going to reasonably conceal a bolt action hand gun or an AR pistol or some other fancy handgun meant only for the range or specific hunting purposes?

I'll cut and paste this one more time....

a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.


I dunno, but that seems pretty clear to me. Again, I'm not saying I'm 100% right, nor am I trying to give anyone "legal" advice. Where exactly did I state I was a lawyer? I'm just someone who is participating in an online conversation about the legalities of steel core RIFLE ammo.


Sheesh!
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Old 02-12-2009, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Look, I said I could be wrong. But since you're bringing it up those aren't your everyday, concealable hand guns now are they? I think the section was pretty clear about that point, no? How are you going to reasonably conceal a bolt action hand gun or an AR pistol or some other fancy handgun meant only for the range or specific hunting purposes?

I'll cut and paste this one more time....

a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.


I dunno, but that seems pretty clear to me. Again, I'm not saying I'm 100% right, nor am I trying to give anyone "legal" advice. Where exactly did I state I was a lawyer? I'm just someone who is participating in an online conversation about the legalities of steel core RIFLE ammo.


Sheesh!
Hey, it was the way that you said that AR pistols have to be single shot in Ca. that I thought needed correcting before someone else actually believed you. I realized that you were very clear about not knowing of any rifle caliber handguns but, I just wanted to make it clear that they do exist. A TC Contender or Encore with a 6"-10" barrel is very easy to conceal in a should rig. There are also a few other production handguns in rifle calibers. 45-70 revolvers and M1 carbines come to mind.
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Old 02-12-2009, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Hey, it was the way that you said that AR pistols have to be single shot in Ca. that I thought needed correcting before someone else actually believed you. I realized that you were very clear about not knowing of any rifle caliber handguns but, I just wanted to make it clear that they do exist. A TC Contender or Encore with a 6"-10" barrel is very easy to conceal in a should rig. There are also a few other production handguns in rifle calibers. 45-70 revolvers and M1 carbines come to mind.

Point taken.




BUT......

6"-10" barrel EASILY concealable? I call shenanigans I think they're talking about your average handgun round. Remember, it's what would be considered REASONABLE. .45-70's and M1's? I thought we were talking about .223 and .308 AP ammo here?

not trying to start anything, just making a point.

It's all good.....
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Old 02-12-2009, 4:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
Reading what you quoted in your post, .223 and .308 AP ammo would be legal in California because it states "

Now AFAIK .223 is not considered "handgun ammo" by any reasonable person. REASONABLE PERSON I would say is important here as that it is used in many court cases to define what should and should not be considered. And yes, I'm aware that there are 5.56/.223 AR pistols, but these "pistols" are not easily concealed on ones person and are limited to single shot here in Cali (unless you're a LEO). Also, I know of no .308 caliber handguns. There may be, but I'm not aware of them. Anyway,this is just my two cents worth. It could be complete gibberish AFAIK.
you would hope that that is the case. I do know that the feds consider .223 and 7.62x39 to be handgun ammo. There was a big controversy when Olympic Arms made a 7.62x39 AR pistol. Even though other companies had made 7.62x39 pistols before, it is felt that Olympic's pistol is what got 7.62x39 to be classified as handgun ammo and stopped importation of all steel core 7.62x39 ammo. http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

So, even though a normal person wouldn't consider the fact that even though there were a couple wierd handgun designs that could shoot .223 or 7.62x39 or 7.62x51, it shouldn't make those calibers handgun ammo. But to the ATF, it does. And I'd like to see somewhere where CA has ruled one way or the other on whether they consider those rifle calibers to be "handgun amm" subject to CA's AP ban, which bans mere possession. As opposed to the federal man which mainly bans manufacture and sales by FFLs.

Quote:
You can buy some steel core 7.62x39 ammo. I don't think it's Wolf, though. Maybe some Mil. surplus. I think Barnul(sp?) made some. Anyway, again I know of no 7.63x39 hand guns other than an AK pistol set up. I could be wrong and would love to see some, but I'm not aware of any (that would be legal in Cali anyway)
I doubt you'd be buying that from a licensed FFL. If so, I believe that would be violating the federal handgun AP ban.

Which coming back to the black tip .223 mentioned before. Even if possession was legal in CA (if not considered handgun AP ammo), there still could be federal issues on how it was obtained.
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Old 02-12-2009, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
6"-10" barrel EASILY concealable? I call shenanigans
I *HAVE* a TC Encore with a 7" barrel.

It's easily concealable.
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Old 02-12-2009, 5:58 PM
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wolf is steel cased, not steel core....good to go

no idea about yugo

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Originally Posted by gunn View Post
As a correlary question, are either of the Yugo surplus 7.62x39 or Wolf bulk 7.62x39 steel core?

I'm considering an AK build and I don't want to buy the wrong ammo.
-g
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Old 02-12-2009, 6:15 PM
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Ah just send it all to me, I will take it off your hands so you do not have to worry about the 'evil ammo'
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Old 02-12-2009, 6:56 PM
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Not to get off topic, but my unofficial testing does indicate that M855 penetrates certain objects that M193 cannot. Though I agree it is not technically classified as AP and is therefore completely legal.

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Old 02-12-2009, 6:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunn View Post
As a correlary question, are either of the Yugo surplus 7.62x39 or Wolf bulk 7.62x39 steel core?

I'm considering an AK build and I don't want to buy the wrong ammo.
-g
wolf is steel jacket and magnetic
yugo is lead core and non magnetic. (note, yugo is corrosive)
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Old 02-12-2009, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumble phish View Post
6"-10" barrel EASILY concealable? I call shenanigans I think they're talking about your average handgun round. Remember, it's what would be considered REASONABLE. .45-70's and M1's? I thought we were talking about .223 and .308 AP ammo here?

not trying to start anything, just making a point.

It's all good.....
Yep, we are just throwing out ideas. No harm no foul. Your right, we were talking about 7.62x51 and 5.56 AP. I just included a couple other samples of other rifle caliber handguns for informational purposes.

I'm not the smallest guy in the world but, I'm not 6'6" 375lbs either and, I can conceal my TC with a 10" barrel quit easily. It came with a shoulder rig so, all I'd have to do is put a jacket on over that. But the rig is for RH shooters and I'm a lefty so, I really don't use it. Also, "concealed" could mean in a backpack. It doesn't have to be dirrectly on your person.
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Old 02-12-2009, 7:19 PM
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oh, and here is the CA PC definition for "firearm capable of being concealed".

Quote:
12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
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  #31  
Old 02-12-2009, 7:26 PM
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CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
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Quote:
These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
The way I read this is that even a TC Contender sold and configured as a rilfe would still be considered a "firearm capable of being concealed".

I had never looked at it like that before.

Oh crap, they now commercially manufacture short barrels for 10-22s, 870s mossberg 500s, etc. So, could this become a problem?
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  #32  
Old 02-12-2009, 7:48 PM
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I dunno, that definition is far reaching. I'm wondering if they were trying to prevent people from selling stuff like 16.1" T/C "pistols" with a spare <16" barrel as a plain Title 1 firearm.

If taken to the extreme, every 870, 10-22, etc, would have to be DROSed as a handgun, and if they did that, I think there could be unintended conscequences that they would not like
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