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Old 03-21-2018, 2:12 PM
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Default S'G' barrel band question

I'm currently going through the parts of an early (? April/May 1943 based on receiver and parts) highwood S'G' M1 carbine. This carbine has a correct parts makeup of S'G' and IP parts with two exceptions - saftey (which looks like it can be traced possibly from unmarked Type II Underwood to S.G. To S'G') and barrel band. So, my question, if there are any Calgunners with expertise in this area, has to do with the barrel band.

This carbine has what appears to be an "exotic" two weld type 1A barrel band. According to J.C. Harrison's M1 Carbine book on pages 36 and 36, it would appear to be either a second generation Winchester (from 1943 - 1944) or a Standard Products - both of which are unmarked two weld parts.

Anyone have any ideas or pointers as to how common exotic barrel bands were with S'G' production or where to look for further info on this? It is my understanding that there are no direct S'G' records of transfers/delivery into S'G' but I am unsure about other prime contractor records of shipments out to either S'G' or S.G.

(Note: this carbine appears to have a clean providence without arsenal rebuilds or previous owner "tampering."

Thanks in advance for any pointers
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Old 03-21-2018, 2:45 PM
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Trying to make a M1 carbine "correct", or wondering why certain parts are combined with other parts is a useless task.

Carbines were issues and saw service as well as "battlefield" repairs. So parts were mixed..

So I don't really know what point you are trying to prove or make.
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Old 03-21-2018, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SVT-40 View Post
Trying to make a M1 carbine "correct", or wondering why certain parts are combined with other parts is a useless task.
I don't see any thing wrong with trying to get it back to "as issued" condition.
Generally, more original parts equals better value with most guns. Agreed, trying to figure why/where/when replacement parts were added could be a useless task.
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Old 03-21-2018, 4:42 PM
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As a clarification, I'm not trying to make this carbine correct or change it. This carbine has set in a closet since at least 1972 and appears to already be an unusual "as issued" rifle made up of an abundance of correct and early S'G' and IP parts as opposed to a post war mixmaster. (Note: personally, I like either kind, no judgements about "my parts vs your parts .)

I'm just trying to understand the history and supply chain a little better for S'G'. So far, I've looked at 2 major reference books and 3 major M1 carbine websites and only one makes a relatively brief mention of "exotic barrel bands" for S'G", where exotic is defined as a " mixed use of a band on UEF, NPM, IBM, STD, PROD, Q-HMC and S'G' models." Harrison states "with the exotic prime contractors (those just mentioned), it is probable that any band except Winchester could be present on original models, especially in early production."

So my question was and remains - "how common were exotic barrel bands with S'G' production?"

If there are no reliable answers, that's fine with me. I'm just trying to educate myself here.

Once again, thanks for your responses.
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Old 03-21-2018, 5:14 PM
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My personal thoughts are, there is no actual answer which can be backed up with verifiable facts.

Lots of opinions about why some parts ended up on different carbines, but no real verifiable facts or documents which can answer your question.
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Old 03-21-2018, 5:32 PM
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couple of observations, from a person interested in carbines for the last 30 years.

in the late '90's/early 2000's many books were written to profit from the new-found interest in these rifles. in my mind, only Ruth wrote without thought of profit.

also regarding carbines I subscribe to the thought there are no hard edges. it's complicated. mostly because the 10 major contractors pooled their resources. and the supporting documentation is lost, because it didn't/doesn't matter.

if Winchester was short of slides for a quarter, Inland stepped up. if Underwood was short receivers, Inland stepped up. and so on. the object was to produce rifles, not satisfy future collectors. small parts such as barrel bands should not be evaluated as incorrect on the M-1 Carbine. unless time frame incorrect. IMO
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Old 03-22-2018, 4:35 AM
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According to Reisch"s book, S'G' Carbines used barrels bands marked UP(early), US'G'(Union Hardware Co,), KV-S'G'(Knape & Vogt Co.), and unmarked.
Ruth's book says that S'G' Carbines used Type 1, Variation A barrels bands marked US'G', KV-S'G', or unmarked.
Per Ruth's book, Grand Rapids used safeties from 4 different contractors, but he only had a code for one of them. Eaton Pond Co. used E-S'G'.
However, safeties from American Electric Heater Co., IBM Corp., and Sargent & Co. were also used, though he didn't know the markings on them.
Reisch's book says that Grand Rapids used safeties marked S'G' and E-S'G'.
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