[pullnshoot25]

Hey guys, just letting everyone know in this section of the forum (gir007 informed everyone in the "General Gun Discussions" already) that there is another San Diego Open Carry Outing planned for Feb 28, 2009.

All details are posted on my blog, so check it out! Blog address is in the signature line.

BLOG INVITE HAS BEEN UPDATED AS OF LATE, PLEASE CHECK IT OUT NOW! CLICK HERE!


Also, Theseus is hoping to get a carpool together for the Alhambra/LA area. Link here for those interested

[pullnshoot25]

Oh yeah, if you want to/plan on attending, feel free to drop a post here or on the blog so we can get a rough idea of how many will be there! WOO HOO!

-N8

[gunsmith]

if others would break the ice I would join in, but right now I cant afford to have my only pistol confiscated.

[Macadelic4]

When will you guys be at El Indio? I can't make the morning (and I don't have a handgun) but I can stop by later for moral support.

[Seesm]

Good stuff... in Sacramento I would do or locally near my home.... We do truly need more of this...

[ENTHUSIAST]

Does it have to be so early 9AM Sat morn?

Damn, PB though tempting... put me down as a definite... MAYBE!

Are we gonna hang out on the Boardwalk and then get lunch @ a Restaurant along Mission Blvd?

[pullnshoot25]

Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST

Does it have to be so early 9AM Sat morn?

Damn, PB though tempting... put me down as a definite... MAYBE!

Are we gonna hang out on the Boardwalk and then get lunch @ a Restaurant along Mission Blvd?

EXACTLY!

[pullnshoot25]

Originally Posted by Macadelic4

When will you guys be at El Indio? I can't make the morning (and I don't have a handgun) but I can stop by later for moral support.

Hey Mac, I have a pistol for you to wear if you want...

[CCWFacts]

One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"

[7x57]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

Actually, it is a tremendously good idea, as it breaks the casting the left has done for their narrative of history. Done often enough and it disrupts the worldview they are selling to the fence-sitters. There must be many other similar ones.

Erasing graffiti might be particularly effective? Though some places you might *need* to be armed while you do it.

7x57

[CCWFacts]

Originally Posted by 7x57

Actually, it is a tremendously good idea, as it breaks the casting the left has done for their narrative of history.

Yeah, it shows that we're not anti-social dangerous people, but rather people who are working to improve our communities and taking initiative. "Service", right? Maybe next MLK day should be "open carry litter pickup day" for us?

(My MLK day just now was "use my AR-15 to get rid of excess ammo day" but it would be better to do something more service-oriented than that.)

Originally Posted by 7x57

Erasing graffiti might be particularly effective? Though some places you might *need* to be armed while you do it.

Yes, erasing graffiti could actually be dangerous, and it requires permission from whoever owns the property. Litter removal is uniquely good in that there's no restriction on doing it.

For us here in CA, we may have trouble doing it in a park because of various ordnances. But I'm sure we could find a great spot to pick up litter while exercising our rights.

[Omega13device]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"

Just be sure to check your city ordinances before doing this in a park as some cities don't allow firearms in their parks.

[pullnshoot25]

Originally Posted by Omega13device

Just be sure to check your city ordinances before doing this in a park as some cities don't allow firearms in their parks.

State has preemption for firearm laws. The boardwalk is not considered part of the park and if it were, I am certain the detective would have informed us of that minor technicality and suggested another location.

[7x57]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

Yes, erasing graffiti could actually be dangerous, and it requires permission from whoever owns the property.

It is interesting what message it would send if you asked for and received permission to do it, however. Asking permission opens a conversation in an unusual and positive context. If permission is not granted, it was still worth the effort because gun owners asked politely for permission to do a public service for free.

Someone will like the free labor enough to grant permission, and that is the second interesting point. Why might it be dangerous to erase graffiti? Because criminals frighten decent citizens and mark territory as a constant reminder that they should remain afraid, that civil authority can't protect them nor can they protect themselves. It is because criminals intimidate law-abiding citizens.

What does the right to bear arms mean? It means the ability to take control of your own life and your own streets. It means not being intimidated by crime or criminals. And isn't that what erasing graffitti while carrying demonstrates publicly? It *shows* something that the public needs to know, and that is not shown while just walking around (sure, you're safer, but the public doesn't think you need to be armed in the first place). And it might make the residents start to think "why can't I do that too? Why can't I take back my own neighborhood?"

And finally, it ought to make any cop happy who subscribes to the broken windows theory or community policing. That isn't a bad thing either, not at all. At one time, every cop knew that if someone hassled him every armed citizen within shouting distance would back him up. They were an asset. No longer, of course, but this is one way to demonstrate the point again. And suppose they decide you need watching? Great! That means the chief is letting some of his officers watch the propaganda on department time, and it means the clean-up crew is that much safer anyway.

I have a hard time seeing the downside, except for perhaps some danger. But I have a hard time believing anyone will harass a whole group of visibly armed people, even if they have to carry their loaded magazines in belt pouches.

This seems a lot more productive than simply OC while going about business, frankly. It is a disruptive strategy, and that's good.

7x57

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

One idea I saw that some OCer were doing in New Hampshire: they did an Open Carry Trash Pickup. They cleaned up some park as their OC activity. I thought that was a great idea.

"What are you doing here with a GUN?"
"We're picking up litter. Is that a problem?"

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...h+pick+up&aq=f



and

[BTF/PTM]

Please forgive a n00b's response, I've done a bit of reading in regard to this event. I'd be a first-time participant, but a very willing and proactive one assuming I've got this understood correctly.

Under the California DOJ written law, it is NOT illegal to carry any California-approved handgun in any public place other than a school zone, State/Federal building or otherwise marked area provided that handgun is NOT loaded (the term "loaded fitting the full definition of law, of course) and all parts of the handgun and/or holstering device are fully exposed to plain view.

Here's a couple questions, and hoepfully I'm not the only one who's wondering these but oh well I'm gonna ask 'em anyway.

1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?

3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.

If it does turn out that this is safe for its participants, I think it's a great idea. Demonstrate to the public that it is NOT the gun that's dangerous, and that most citizens who own them are not just law-abiding but also proactive in their communities. If such is the case, I'm in. See you there

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by BTF/PTM

Please forgive a n00b's response, I've done a bit of reading in regard to this event. I'd be a first-time participant, but a very willing and proactive one assuming I've got this understood correctly.

I appreciate your desire to educate yourself! That is the first step to avoiding problems (still problems CAN find you).

Study here at californiaopencarry.org and DO read the actual penal code sections to better your understanding of the laws (and it WILL also generate questions).

Buy the book "How to own a gun and stay out of jail". It is a great resource for "case law" - which is the courts saying what the law "means".

Consider showing up unarmed and observing if you are not yet fully educated or comfortable with the laws or the risks. But it is one month away so you have time. San Diego recently became much more friendly (at least in the city proper).

Still OC and UOC in CA is far from just walking off your property and going about you day. Become informed! Make an informed decision!

Originally Posted by BTF/PTM

1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?

It is quite likely that a concealed magazine is completely legal. However; there has been considerable discussion of this exact issue and it is the opinion of most OC advocates that you are legally safest with any loaded magazines in belt pouches carried openly. Some have also suggested that carrying your firearm with an unloaded magazine in place re-enforces the status of the loaded magazines as replacement parts rather than integral parts of the gun. Others have argued that since a loaded magazine in the firearm still requires racking the slide that the gun is NOT in a position to be fired and even an empty chamber with loaded magazine is legal. (This has not been tested and isn't recommended.)

I will assume that in an organized event like this that the organizers will prefer that everyone carries their magazines in the most clearly legal manner and I would also suspect they will check each participant to ensure they aren't opening themselves up to a very bad situation of a demonstration intended to be legal turning into something the antis can actually use against us. I would also assume that the organizers will print a map with "green zones" around the demonstration area so people don't get nabbed by a school zone violation or other "sensitive area."

3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.

As long as your are obeying the laws (and the guys here are much more expert on the laws than Local LE will be) there is no "real punishment" but it is ALWAYS possible that an undereducated LEO will run you in and you could have some difficulty getting out. If you are careful, squeaky clean and in the right there is a high probability that you will not face any charges.

[BTF/PTM]

I hadn't even considered the idea of a concealed magazine until I realized that the context of my question opened the option - thanks for bringing it up, definitely something worth clarifying! I'll start reading the links to the other data as soon as I'm home from work, I've already been on the interweb too much for one day

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by BTF/PTM

1) The law does not state that it is illegal to carry loaded magazines detached from the gun, for example in a belt pocket or a pants pocket or whatever. If someone were to choose to open carry that way, what kind of trouble could ensue if the cops wanted to intervene?

2) Is it the intent of our participants to carry just the gun without any magazines on their person so as to make it that much more obvious that the gun is not loaded?

3) Is there any real punishment that could result in taking part in this event provided it is done following the letter of the law and otherwise peacably? I don't need to be getting arrested for a "misunderstanding" having to do with guns - not so good for my employment future, dontcha know.

1 & 2) Loaded mags NOT attached to the firearm in a position from which the ammunition can be fired is NO CRIME generally: PC 12031 and People vs Clark (unless engaged in a felony crime PC 12023 or on state capitol grounds in Sac.)

We recommend all mags (loaded or not) be kept exposed in belt mag pouches (People vs Hale)

Some do not place a empty mag in the well some do - It's really personal choice and tactics.

3) False arrests happen. The SD UOC event in Feb. IMO will probable be the legally "safest" event yet held. Past performance is no guarantee of future success (you may remember this statement from your stock market broker).

But what IS needed in CA are Citizens of Patriotism, Courage, and Enterprise willing to exercise their Rights and to lawfully take back what has been wrongfully denied us: Our Basic Human Right of Self Defense and Possession of the Best Tools for that Lawful Defense!

Welcome to the fold here on Calguns!

[ripcurlksm]

Originally Posted by Liberty1

Still OC and UOC in CA is far from just walking off your property and going about you day. Become informed! Make an informed decision!

Right but with the exception of driving, banks, schools and post offices, etc -- unloaded open carry in ORANGE COUNTY is just as legal as SD?

EDIT: what are you implying that is different about OC?

keep up the good work

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by CCWFacts

Yeah, it shows that we're not anti-social dangerous people, but rather people who are working to improve our communities and taking initiative.

Aside from the UOC and community outreach / beautification issues I'd love for some SD locals (who are VERY well educated on the facts and prefer CCW to OC) to use the opportunity presented by UOC defensive carry and the SD PD UOC memo to approach the SD Police Chief about CCW issuance (unless he's declared "G").

I still support OC as a superior deterrent mode of carry and comfort (pros and cons to both CC and OC (and certainly there are cons for UOC) but I feel it is a matter of individual choice ultimately and a choice dictated by what is prohibited by bad laws.

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by ripcurlksm

Right but with the exception of driving, banks, schools and post offices, etc -- unloaded open carry in ORANGE COUNTY is just as legal as SD?

EDIT: what are you implying that is different about OC?

keep up the good work

Fixed it.

OC means open carry in my above post not Orange....

Yes UOC in OC (Orange County) is the same in SD in regards to state law matters. Be aware of local ordinances (which are preempted but may take a legal fight to prove if the city involved digs in and tries to prosecute any such misdemeanor).

[ripcurlksm]

heh easy mixup, thanks for reclarifying

Sorry for off topic question but:

Situation: You are unloaded open carrying, your life is in immediate danger-- are the legal repercussions of self defense equal to CCW vs UOC if you had to defend yourself?

What I am trying to get at here is if there are any significant LEGAL differences sitting in court for a life/death situation and having a CCW vs UOC.

[Liberty1]

Originally Posted by ripcurlksm

heh easy mixup, thanks for reclarifying

Sorry for off topic question but:

Situation: You are unloaded open carrying, your life is in immediate danger-- are the legal repercussions of self defense equal to CCW vs UOC if you had to defend yourself?

What I am trying to get at here is if there are any significant LEGAL differences sitting in court for a life/death situation and having a CCW vs UOC.

Well I could see a prosecuting attorney saying "you went out looking for a gun fight, etc..." But if it wasn't justified deadly force you'd be in the same boat even on your own property (stronger protections exist for being IN your residence).

I always recommend carrying a "less lethal" option too (for most people that is limited to pepper spray even a small one on a key chain is better then nothing) so you can say that you were prepared for a less then lethal threat but the circumstances required you to use the force needed (let your attorney explain that rather then running your mouth to the police after a self defense shooting).

Retreating or running away should never be discounted provided it doesn't increase the dangers. Everyone who keeps any arm (even at home) should study self defense case law and survival theories and seek as much training as their budget or library card will support! and train, train train and then train some more!

[sfpcservice]

Originally Posted by gunsmith

I wish there were people doing this in sf

I work in SF and I think because it is so compact, you'd have a real hard time staying 1000' away from all the public and private schools. You might be able to pull it off standing at the end of a pier in hunters point, but then you could lock and load too because you would be in grave danger!

[alleyehave]

Will be present...

[ENTHUSIAST]

Originally Posted by pullnshoot25

3) Dressing the part (UPDATED 1-26)... Therefore, it is requested that those attending this outing be nicely attired. (CHANGE HERE)--> Since slacks to a beach function is almost silly, I say that we dress in what is comfortable but also looks nice, as open carrying is already hard enough as it is, we shouldn't have to dress up the occasion as well.

Glad that you caught that one!!!

I will be the guy wearing Reef sandals and either NEW boardshorts or nice jeans... now does anyone know where I can get a Jay La Suer for Sheriff T-Shirt in XXL...?

Go ahead and change that maybe to a definite YES!!!

Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST

I will be the guy wearing Reef sandals and either NEW boardshorts or nice jeans...

Gotta love any sandal company that includes a churchkey in the sole of their sandals.

[pullnshoot25]

WOO HOO! Lets get this party started!

[CmpsdNoMore]

I'll probably be coming, though I won't be carrying. I'll definitely print out some of the fliers in case they're needed.

I'm not very familiar with the area yet, but that location listed is near Mission Beach, right?

[pullnshoot25]

Originally Posted by CmpsdNoMore

I'll probably be coming, though I won't be carrying. I'll definitely print out some of the fliers in case they're needed.

I'm not very familiar with the area yet, but that location listed is near Mission Beach, right?

Yes, you are correct.

[BTF/PTM]

I'll add another question to the thread in the hope that I'm not the only one wondering/worrying about it.

4) I've been reading up on the opencarry.org site, and it mentions that one obviously should not carry if not financially prepared to cover legal fees in the event of arrest while participating LAWFULLY in open carry. Does anyone here have a ballpark figure for the legal fees required should the SHTF? It sounds like this has been set up to be as safe and smart as possible, but no one should ever hope for the best without planning for the worst. I need to know if I should open a fresh credit line before I jump into this (yes, I'm willing to do that to help make a statement )

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by pullnshoot25

The boardwalk is not considered part of the park....

It is a dedicated public right of way (ie street).
.

[elsensei]

Originally Posted by BTF/PTM

I'll add another question to the thread in the hope that I'm not the only one wondering/worrying about it.

4) I've been reading up on the opencarry.org site, and it mentions that one obviously should not carry if not financially prepared to cover legal fees in the event of arrest while participating LAWFULLY in open carry. Does anyone here have a ballpark figure for the legal fees required should the SHTF? It sounds like this has been set up to be as safe and smart as possible, but no one should ever hope for the best without planning for the worst. I need to know if I should open a fresh credit line before I jump into this (yes, I'm willing to do that to help make a statement )

The smartest thing you could do would be to learn how to represent yourself in court. The expense is in the legal fees, and I can guarantee you that you'll know more about the applicable laws than most attorneys you come across.

The second smartest thing you could do is go on the offensive and if TSHTF go after the city, the police department and the individual officer.

[BTF/PTM]

Originally Posted by elsensei

The smartest thing you could do would be to learn how to represent yourself in court.

Educational source recommendations? Classes? Books? This would be a worthy skill for any application, and I'm a big fan of learning useful skills.

[elsensei]

the nolo press has a pretty good book on representing yourself in court. Look on Amazon for other books along the same lines.

Search the web for examples of pleadings. Most legal pleadings are just boilerplate, meaning one guy wrote one thing a hundred years ago and everyone has been ripping him off ever since.

The local law library is a pretty good source too, staffed with law students bored out of their minds and often eager to help.

"Section 1983 litigation in a nutshell" is excellent for when you need to go on the offensive when your rights have been violated.

then read and understand the "federal rules of civil procedure" if you end up in federal court as a plaintiff.

you can attend open criminal court anytime you want, just show up and watch how it all works. That is one of the best ways to learn.

[BTF/PTM]

^thanks!! Man, I'm learnin' all kindsa new stuff today.

[tube_ee]

I'm thinking of carrying my 1858 Remington replica, unloaded and uncapped.

If I had to give up a gun to the cops, it's the one I'd miss the least, and the cheapest to replace should that become necessary.

Any issues with such a choice?

Thanks,

--Shannon

[pullnshoot25]

Originally Posted by tube_ee

I'm thinking of carrying my 1858 Remington replica, unloaded and uncapped.

If I had to give up a gun to the cops, it's the one I'd miss the least, and the cheapest to replace should that become necessary.

Any issues with such a choice?

Thanks,

--Shannon

None at all. If you wear it though, you have to dress up. That would be SICK!

Besides, no one is getting their guns taken that day, that I can pretty much assure.