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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:11 AM
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I guess I'm sort of half-conscious, so I'll try to write some things. I make no warranty as to the coherence...I am translating it from the simple yet beautiful alien language in which it was dictated to me by the flying monkeys that started helping me drive sometime around 3AM.

<looks around>

What? Why is everyone looking at me like that?!? They were great! I'd never have made it alive through the grapevine at 80 sometime around 5 AM without their help!

Oh, uh, there weren't any? I must have been driving all night without sleep then. :-)



Slow Train Coming: Rail Meat at Nordyke

Sailors have a term for people who provide warm bodies while the sailors sail. Such lubbers can't be trusted with a line (or probably a sharp object), but if they're sentient enough to always move to the high side and stay quiet enough so the sailors can hear the orders then they can help the boat stand up to her sails by being living movable ballast. This requires about as much expertise as it takes a plant to grow toward the light. These hapless lubbers are called "rail meat." Now, if that sounds insulting or boring, you don't understand why it's good to be rail meat: basically, you get to sit, talk, drink or do whatever else you think is fun while other people do a lot of work to take you for a boat ride. It's good to be work- and responsibility-free while still contributing a tiny bit to the success of the team.

I think that's a pretty good description for what we were asked to do: we only had to be conscious enough to dress ourselves (appropriately) and behave ourselves while Don Kilmer skippered our vessel with Don Kates navigating and numerous others operating the deck. And indeed we were all having fun watching other people get grilled by the panel, and there was indeed a lot of talking and drinking afterwards.

I left as early as my childcare arrangements permitted, and armed with an armful of CDs I set out for the Heart of Darkness that is SF with BB King riding shotgun. I could not afford to lose time, so aside from a single stop I had plenty of time to think about what the theme song for the trip should be. I armed the CD player with my weapon of choice on the bay bridge and touched down in the Heart of Darkness with Dylan blaring out "Slow Train Coming." The train, you understand, being the beginning of genuine legal protection for the RKBA in California and the US. You can't say I didn't give fair warning to the natives! I would find out later that it has been a slower train than I knew--Don Kilmer has been working on this case for ten years.

It's up and 'round the bend, Alameda. :-)

I got there in time to grab a quick lunch and head to the courthouse. I went in what I guessed was the right door, and when I saw the security checkpoint I remarked to the marshal that I must be in the right place. When I sat my book down so I could empty my pockets for the x-ray machine one marshal saw the title, "The Founder's Second Amendment," and said "you're in the right place." They knew who we were and why we were there. :-) I was at pains to be as courteous as possible, and it seemed so were the marshals; hats off to courteous, friendly, and professional conduct to them. All citizen-LEO interactions should be like that. I believe we did a good job as gun owners in the spotlight, and I couldn't help but think of the contrast with, say, the Obama protesters I saw at the SoCal Palin speech during the campaign. Granted, just having bathed within the last few days put us ahead of that crowd, so it's an easy mark to exceed. I later heard that we'd turned out more people than were at the Napster hearings, so good job to Calguns particularly and all the others that were there.

The courthouse is quite beautiful; I wish I'd had more time to try to identify the somewhat classical looking scenes on the walls in the overflow room.

I'll have to break this up, so I'll give my impressions of the arguments later. I don't have any great insights beyond what has already been posted, however.

7x57
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  #82  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:58 AM
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Thank you all for doing this and thanks to all who went in support. I would have loved to be there Work sucks.
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  #83  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:12 PM
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I don't know if anyone shares my opinion, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sent it back to the lower court so that the complaints can be amended and it all be argued again.

This is the 9th circuit, they may just sidestep...
The Ninth also likes controversy and publicity, regardless of their canons (with all due respect). How better to get it but be the first State/Circuit to incorporate the 2nd.
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  #84  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
Sailors have a term for people who provide warm bodies while the sailors sail. Such lubbers can't be trusted with a line (or probably a sharp object), but if they're sentient enough to always move to the high side and stay quiet enough so the sailors can hear the orders then they can help the boat stand up to her sails by being living movable ballast. This requires about as much expertise as it takes a plant to grow toward the light. These hapless lubbers are called "rail meat." Now, if that sounds insulting or boring, you don't understand why it's good to be rail meat: basically, you get to sit, talk, drink or do whatever else you think is fun while other people do a lot of work to take you for a boat ride. It's good to be work- and responsibility-free while still contributing a tiny bit to the success of the team.
This gave me a good laugh. It's true that a lot of us may look around and not think we're doing more than being ballast, my analysis is we're more than that. If the OLL movement was kept to three computer geeks, California might only have, at most, 50 more AR / AK type rifles. The word got out and now we're looking at high tens of thousands that have entered the state, if not low 6-figures. This movement which was confined to just one of the 50 states was big enough to upset the supply of receivers to the whole rest of the country. Gripless options like the MonsterMan and U-15, and countless mag-lock options came from regular forum people stepping up and grabbing a line and hoisting a sail. Even the rest of us who aren't manufacturing solutions like these are watching how the wind is blowing and helping trim those sails by buying and helping refine those products, others are standing at the rail with their eyes on the horizon watching for storms and other ships out there. One of those things on the horizon is NRF. Some of the other members up in the crow's nest or operating the radar are looking out even beyond that.
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  #85  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:42 PM
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The Ninth also likes controversy and publicity, regardless of their canons (with all due respect). How better to get it but be the first State/Circuit to incorporate the 2nd.
I think that's what we need to hope for here. If the judges want to play it conservatively, then there are just way too many (unfortunately) reasonable ways that they can say this case doesn't relate closely to Heller. But if they want to make a splash, then Don did a fantastic job of giving them creative and convincing arguments to make the connection.
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  #86  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:43 PM
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The other thing to remember is the 9th circuit does not like there rulings to be overturned (and that will happen if it goes to scotus)
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:48 PM
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The Ninth also likes controversy and publicity, regardless of their canons (with all due respect). How better to get it but be the first State/Circuit to incorporate the 2nd.
I hope you're right....
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  #88  
Old 01-16-2009, 1:11 PM
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This gave me a good laugh. It's true that a lot of us may look around and not think we're doing more than being ballast, my analysis is we're more than that.
I wasn't trying to be so broad, just talking about that one case. If Alan Gura had only shown up at the overflow room in a trench coat and sunglasses and watched, he'd have been rail meat. :-) Admiral Nelson could be rail meat on a particular day, if he's taking a break just holding down the gunwale.

Granted, I'm stretching with those examples since Gura and Nelson both carry a certain message simply by their presence, but otherwise yesterday was showtime for a few key people and a rail-meat holiday for us plebes in the overflow.

Apropos of nothing, I just had a very funny picture of the marshals harassing the suspicious-looking guy in coat and glasses and then finding out it's the most famous 2A lawyer in America. They were nice guys, but it's an amusing fantasy anyway.

7x57
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:07 PM
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Slow Train Coming: Playing Singlestick In Long Dresses

Back when men were real men, there was an Irish pub game called singlestick. The way it works is you have a beer behind you in your weak hand and a solid stick in your right. Then you and a similarly playful and sporting chap attempt to whack each other in the skull until someone wins by drawing enough blood on the other fellow's forehead to run down an inch or so, or in a typical pub setting loses by spilling his beer (you can play to many other winning conditions, but we're sticking with the classics here). Spilling good beer being the most heinous offense against God and man, naturally that is a loss, but no amount of blood, broken bones, etc anywhere but the forehead counts for anything at all. Now, the problem with singlestick is that a good player can mount an impregnable defense of his head, so the game goes forever. That is a serious problem, not so much because of boredom (whacking sticks together is considered an art form in Ireland), but because it prevents you from finishing your beer. That, too, is a treasonous betrayal of everything sacred in the Emerald Isle and an offense to decency.

The solution is found in a careful consideration of the rules: while, say, a severe drubbing about the ribs does not *score,* it hurts like the very devil. You can't defend your ribs while mounting that perfect head defense, either. So what you do is give your opponent a savage beating elsewhere, preferably by repeated blows to already tenderized flesh, until pain obliges him to defend the rest of himself. Now unable to mount a perfect head defense, you have your opportunity to crack him on the crown and win. If he doesn't beat you black and blue first, of course.

It's all good clean fun, and so manly a pastime that a good player might even be able to do it in a dress and not be heckled loudly enough to provoke beatings of the bystanders. Manly, manly men, those Irishmen. Being belabored about the head until you have the IQ of a potato is a small, small price to pay for drunken violence with your mates.

The relevance is that orals at an appeals court appears to amount to a verbal game of singlestick, complete with black dresses. Of course, lawyers are not as manly as Irishmen and don't play fair: the justices get to lay their cugels on the backs of the lawyers at will without fear of a good solid blow in return. On the other hand, only the justices have to wear the dresses, so on the whole real men probably should opt for the beating rather than the dress.

All of that is by way of distracting and amusing you sufficiently to not notice that I don't truly know what was happening any more than the other non-lawyers. But, also like the others, it won't stop me from posting my ignorant impressions anyway. Misinformed opinions: it's why we have the internet. :-)

During appellant's presentation the justices worked him over pretty good on incorporation, as others noted. I didn't take that as a sign of trouble: I assumed that the procedure is to attack the hardest on the issues the justices are most interested in to see if the ideas survive. So I assume that is good for an explicit ruling on incorporation, since I think Mr. Kilmer had a ready answer for everything. Even with that idea in mind, though, it felt better to see them work over the county lawyer afterwards. It must suck to have 20 minutes to present complex ideas and be interrupted at will without getting extra time on your shot clock.

I thought the county was spreading a little bit of argument a long way, same as others have said. He was clearly stumbling for an answer a number of times: Don Kilmer never was, thankfully. What surprised me the most is that the county refused to concede any point or consequence of Heller whatsoever except the bare fact that in DC (only), you have a Constitutional right to possess (only) a firearm for self defense in the home (only). But he conceded no other right to defense or to keep, or any at all to bear. Most surprising, if I didn't misunderstand, when asked by the court what the situation would be if the case were about the DC ban instead council claimed that even that would be constitutional in California. That didn't seem to be contingent on lack of incorporation, either; it sounded as if he was essentially saying that the 2A meant *nothing* outside of federal enclaves. Almost as shocking to folks like us was the flat claim that the RKBA does not imply any right to *buy* firearms. It was nice that Kilmer used his minute or so of reserved time to point out that there are only two venues where Californians can go to shop for guns, so gun shows are not simply one possibility among many.

If he'd really wanted to simply save the county law, you'd think he'd concede on stuff like that. The fact that he gave no ground in the face of severe questioning suggests to me that the county is less concerned with gun shows per se and more with making sure it is never on record as admitting that it has any restrictions whatsoever as to any future gun ban it might pass. What, a hidden gun banning agenda? By a local government? Nah, that just *couldn't* be.

One of the most amusing points, of course, was the point as which he was trying to claim that they could hold gun shows under the current rules, and a justice commented on the irony of having a "gun show" without showing guns. It was blatant a contradiction that council was forced to concede that he had a point. Even us legal dullards can get that level of humor. Another was when the opposition attorney manfully slogged away at his dutiful best to do the impossible and claim that one could still buy and sell guns with them absent, and perhaps do the actual transaction in the parking lot or on the sidewalk! Yow. I fear that won't seem quite as barking mad to the justices as to those of us who have seen all the "warning, it's a crime to buy/sell in the parking lot!" signs at gun shows, but perhaps the involuntary audience gasps and titters made the point.

Once again, the largely calguns audience was quiet and respectful throughout the proceedings in the overflow room, and I gather similarly everywhere. I take it that the occasional gasp or appreciative murmur is not only acceptable, but even to be expected as a way for citizens to have a very small voice about what is happening before them. I think we gave a good impression of polite and responsible citizens very concerned with our rights and committed to the rule of law.

That is, I think, how the Republic is supposed to work. I am sorry my boy wasn't old enough to be there with me, however.

7x57
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:08 PM
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Ha, I remember my parents were members of Fedco, just not what was in it. Old, but not old enough.
I remember the huge counter stocked full of Nintendo games. (wow, that's four generations of consoles old.)


I'm glad I was lucky enough to attend the hearing, and to sit next to Virgil McVicker, Plaintiff and President of the Madison Society. What a gentleman, patriot, and hero.
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Old 01-16-2009, 2:40 PM
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It's too bad a CalGunner didn't slip Mr Kilmer a note with the penal code for selling guns in a parking lot so that he could have slipped that into his final minute of remarks.
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:03 PM
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It's too bad a CalGunner didn't slip Mr Kilmer a note with the penal code for selling guns in a parking lot so that he could have slipped that into his final minute of remarks.
You know, I *did* wonder why he didn't point out that opposing council had suggested that people commit crime.

7x57
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:04 PM
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You know, I *did* wonder why he didn't point out that opposing council had suggested that people commit crime.

7x57
Saving it for later I assume
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:11 PM
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It's too bad a CalGunner didn't slip Mr Kilmer a note with the penal code for selling guns in a parking lot so that he could have slipped that into his final minute of remarks.
Don told me he had a list of barbs he would have liked to throw at the end but it was clear that the Judges wanted to end it.

-Gene
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:15 PM
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Saving it for later I assume
In this current round, I don't think there is a "later".
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:34 PM
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I'm sure that pc and zoning ordinances could also have been referenced and other issues debated ad nauseum (e.g. the Scottish Games' "plan"), but, like a well-written letter, it was short and sweet. Don made the appropriate points without beating them to death.
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Old 01-16-2009, 3:41 PM
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Close! It was Remi (sp?).

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Old 01-16-2009, 3:50 PM
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Don told me he had a list of barbs he would have liked to throw at the end but it was clear that the Judges wanted to end it.

-Gene
Additionally, he literally had 1 minute and I'm sure he felt his time was best spent addressing other points.
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Old 01-16-2009, 6:06 PM
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Hi folks, I've been following this case from Texas, and I'm glad someone here referenced a link to the audio. It was very interesting to hear the arguments.

One of the things that bothered me, was the assertion that incorporation shouldn't be considered because no 2nd amendment rights were involved. He made comments like Heller recognized the 2nd amendment as a limited right and that it was a right to self defense. It's not a right to possess guns anywhere, and no one was bringing guns to a gun show for self defense, etc etc. Therefore, it's not a 2nd amendment issue and doesn't even require consideration of incorporation.

That seemed like a pretty flawed argument to me.
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Old 01-16-2009, 6:08 PM
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In this current round, I don't think there is a "later".
There is always potential for later
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Old 01-16-2009, 6:11 PM
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Hi folks, I've been following this case from Texas, and I'm glad someone here referenced a link to the audio. It was very interesting to hear the arguments.

One of the things that bothered me, was the assertion that incorporation shouldn't be considered because no 2nd amendment rights were involved. He made comments like Heller recognized the 2nd amendment as a limited right and that it was a right to self defense. It's not a right to possess guns anywhere, and no one was bringing guns to a gun show for self defense, etc etc. Therefore, it's not a 2nd amendment issue and doesn't even require consideration of incorporation.

That seemed like a pretty flawed argument to me.
Yes it was a pathetic argument
but put yourself in his shoes for a second
what would you have said ?
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Old 01-16-2009, 6:55 PM
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This was a great step towards our goal of confirming our common sense 2A gun rights as they were written by good men many years ago.
We must not loose focus by Monday morning quarterbacking the proceedings.
Woulda-coulda-shoulda is only useful with regard to fine tuning our tactics when we engage them in court in the future.
We cannot loose faith in what we know is right and not be swayed by any setback. Regardless of the outcome of this particular case.
Special kudos to all that supported this effort in any way.
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Old 01-16-2009, 8:00 PM
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Ironic, I just watched Randy Pausch's last lecture (Virtual Reality professor). Maybe they expect there to be a bunch of blue gun replicas for people to handle in a VR interface.
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Old 01-16-2009, 8:17 PM
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Some alternate download links and locations for the Nordyke v. King Case No. 07-15763 audio media:

Court Of Appeals site page: Court Of Appeals site Media for Case No. 07-15763

Actual file location : http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...5/07-15763.wma

Alternate Storage location: Nordyke_v._King_Audio_2009-01-15_07-15763.wma
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Last edited by Vectrexer; 01-16-2009 at 8:20 PM..
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  #105  
Old 01-16-2009, 9:10 PM
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I transcoded this into MP3 as well for ease of use on non windows platforms:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Nor...2009-01-15.mp3

-Gene
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  #106  
Old 01-16-2009, 9:29 PM
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some crappy cellphone pics...






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  #107  
Old 01-16-2009, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
There is always potential for later
AFAIK, not before they rule on it. No additional oral arguements or briefs filed.

I guess it could be brought infront of another court later on, if it gets heard en-banc or goes up to the Supremes, but the time to bring it up would have been right then, but as mentioned above, the Don's felt that the Justices had heard enough at that point.
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  #108  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:10 PM
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WHAT? the 9th is the most overturned court in the country. I'm sure they don't like it but they don't let it get in the way of their incompetence. These particular judges not withstanding.

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Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
The other thing to remember is the 9th circuit does not like there rulings to be overturned (and that will happen if it goes to scotus)
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  #109  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:44 PM
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snip
Nice pan stitching!
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  #110  
Old 01-17-2009, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tomcat11 View Post
Wow, awesome listen. I think I might have gained a couple of IQ points listening to that
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  #111  
Old 01-17-2009, 1:26 AM
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some crappy cellphone pics...







They're better than the ones from the "after-party"

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Old 01-17-2009, 5:35 AM
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Heh... I finally was able to listen to it....

very interesting...

Listening to the oposing counsel try to tapdance around reality based soley on missinterperated legal conjecture was amusing...

especially at the end....

it definitly had a... "Ok... we've heard just about enough of this crap" feel to it.

Time to hand that carpet bagger his own ***
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  #113  
Old 01-17-2009, 7:19 AM
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I finally got the chance to sit and listen to the arguments. While listening, I read through all 12 pages of this thread. I regret now more than before not being able to make it to The City for this. I'm hopeful that this hearing will be historic.

It sure sounded like the Alameda County attorney was on the ropes for most of his spiel. Judging the tone of the judges, I feel that we will get a favorable ruling, although I'm no legal scholar.

This is disturbing though :
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Originally Posted by TheBundo View Post
They're better than the ones from the "after-party"

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  #114  
Old 01-17-2009, 7:44 AM
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That actually isn't helpful to our argument - because if you can't actually take possession, why is the item really needed there (or at least that is what the other side would have argued)?
I would argue that inspecting a physical item before purchase is deeply ingrained in the american culture. - And remains the sole purpose today of leaving one's residence to engage in commerce.
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  #115  
Old 01-17-2009, 8:27 AM
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I would argue that inspecting a physical item before purchase is deeply ingrained in the american culture. - And remains the sole purpose today of leaving one's residence to engage in commerce.
Exactly; what, if not by using our own senses and judgement for the consideration of the purchase of goods, should we utilize to do so?

It could be assumed that, absent the freedom to view and handle goods prior to purchase, we would be forced to rely completely upon *trustworthy* sources such as USDA, FDA, CADOJ, FHWA, etc. to guide us in our decision-making process (if, indeed, there is any decision left to make, other than to purchase an item or not).

I can only imagine what the *safe broccoli* roster would look like...
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  #116  
Old 01-17-2009, 8:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artherd View Post
I would argue that inspecting a physical item before purchase is deeply ingrained in the american culture. - And remains the sole purpose today of leaving one's residence to engage in commerce.
Absolutely.
With the exception of hookers and cheeseburgers, its a natural flow of commerce to fondle the goods prior to purchase.

Regarding the roots of this case and the county ordinance. I have been searching for the original or any article pertaining to the July 4th shooting at the fairgrounds.
So far all I'm able to find is an occasional fact.
It was a lone gunman from Richmond that started the shooting in 1998.
It then seems to have turned into a mele where 8 or 16 people were injured.
Also appears to be gang related.
It did not happen during a Fair or a gun show.
It was mid afternoon.

It has been the Sheriff and Deputies that have been encouraging the fairground operators to ban the Independence Day fireworks display.

My searchfoo is tuckered out.
Anyone have or seen some of the news articles?

Thanks,

Vick
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  #117  
Old 01-17-2009, 8:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Can'thavenuthingood View Post
Absolutely.
With the exception of hookers and cheeseburgers, its a natural flow of commerce to fondle the goods prior to purchase.

Regarding the roots of this case and the county ordinance. I have been searching for the original or any article pertaining to the July 4th shooting at the fairgrounds.
So far all I'm able to find is an occasional fact.
It was a lone gunman from Richmond that started the shooting in 1998.
It then seems to have turned into a mele where 8 or 16 people were injured.
Also appears to be gang related.
It did not happen during a Fair or a gun show.
It was mid afternoon.

It has been the Sheriff and Deputies that have been encouraging the fairground operators to ban the Independence Day fireworks display.

My searchfoo is tuckered out.
Anyone have or seen some of the news articles?

Thanks,

Vick
It happened during the fair on the 4th of july
(I was about 100 yards away)
It was a gangfight

I don't know if they still do but the 4th of july was "Oakland" day and they were busing people out for free
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  #118  
Old 01-17-2009, 9:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorensen440 View Post
It happened during the fair on the 4th of july
(I was about 100 yards away)
It was a gangfight

I don't know if they still do but the 4th of july was "Oakland" day and they were busing people out for free
If this fact is true I would bet dollars to dough nuts that the gang scum were already prohibited from owning firearms already. So the basis of prohibiting firearms at the fairgrounds is based on prohibited scum disobeying laws already on the books and we need another layer of laws. Making something illegal "more illegal". Typical California law maker logic. If we make something more illegal it will solve the problem.
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  #119  
Old 01-17-2009, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
If this fact is true I would bet dollars to dough nuts that the gang scum were already prohibited from owning firearms already. So the basis of prohibiting firearms at the fairgrounds is based on prohibited scum disobeying laws already on the books and we need another layer of laws. Making something illegal "more illegal". Typical California law maker logic. If we make something more illegal it will solve the problem.
Its also illegal to shoot people
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  #120  
Old 01-17-2009, 9:20 AM
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Great going !

We are gaining ground, even though it is all uphill, its always been that way !
However victory Is in sight !
Robin47
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